Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

the ecu is not locked the licence can be removed etc.. and there is a large network of ecutek dealers should someone want to go elsewhere.

if someone has an ecutek licence and is not happy with the remap thay can go with the licence to another ecutek dealer.. if someone has an open source remap and is not happy you could argue they are restricted to open source mapping as the cost of an open source followed be an ecutek remap exceeds two ecutek remaps.

As Paul says the open source stuff is allergerdly hacked/stolen software.

Simon

ZEN Performance

Zak,

I didn't mean to upset you on the mapping thread, I'm sorry if I came over as having a dig at you and Mocom, it wasn't my intention at all. I asked questions, there is a difference between a question and a statement. If I wanted to have a go, I wouldn't be subtle.

BUT.

If you want to stay in business, you're up against ANYONE that buys a £50 cable and downloads the software. This is the reality, if you just sit back and say "my work sells itself" you are going to suffer at the hands of these people selling cheap remaps. You HAVE to show you're better. I have had instances where people were shown a 50hp gain, yet the map file CRC checked against the original, no changes at all. Do you want to be associated with that sort of behaviour? Some people use SN when it's too late and they have already been screwed.

I can rely on the Ecutek association to a certain extent, it legitimises what I do to a point. But any one Ecutek dealer still strives to be better than the rest.

How will things change when there are many outlets offering remaps using ECUflash and so on?

I could ditch Ecutek tomorrow if I wanted, I choose not to.

Andy.F

Go to Mocom mate, you could save a fortune. He said this whilst having a go at another tuner the other week.

https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...-ecu-help.html

That works out at £55 -£110 max !

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Nobody was having a go in that thread Andy.. the question was regarding having a map on a Apexi. All that was stated was that Zak didnt charge a set price for that service, it was an hourly rate. Wheres the problem there then?

frayz

iTrader: (7)

I think i read it well enough. If you didnt intend on having a dig, then maybe you should reword your posts in a less misleading way. Because it certainly read that way.

I certainly wouldnt have written what i did if it had come across as something that wasnt a dig.

If i genuinely have the wrong end of a rather blurred stick... i appologise unreservedly.

ZEN Performance

posts edited for clarity

Andy.F

Sorry Frayz, I read that post of Mocoms as being hypocritical.

ZEN Performance

different argument really, one best avoided on this thread.

ELYA49

Great thread for the 'novice', 'new to mapping'. Still don't quite fully understand what warrants the price difference bewteen this 'open source' & ECUtek. I appreciate software licensing costs etc.. but what is the physical difference or is it purly down to the ability of the mapper no matter what software is used. I'm sure Zak / Mocom will not mind shedding some light on this when I visit and bend his ear a little..!! Heard / read great things about Mocom which formed my decision to map & service there, together with the £250+ price difference from other mappers / ECUTek licensing. Local Subaru dealer (well 65 mile return trip) quoted £170 for first year 10K service vs Mocom's £100. I only live 20mins from one of these £250 re-map places and nearly 3 hours from Mocom. Zak , See you on the 14th

jayb1970

Phew ! That was a bit heated eh !

I don't understand the difference between open source and a full re-map either. My car was "Green Monstered" before I bought it, which one would I have had done? Maybe JGM himself could answer that. Also I was going to have a sports cat fitted, which will mean a map tweak, does that mean I have to go back to JGM ? or could I go to BR for example as he is only 20 mins up the road from me and still get the same price ?

Marky9074

Wow, that is low...

I think you will find that Zak uses EcuEDIT which is neither stolen or free......

I think some EcuTEK dealers seem to miss the point....

The fact that EcuTEK have huge financial resources (through the licences and huge amounts they charge for dealer franchises) to employ a room full of boffins to reverse engineer code is hacking in itself. It is no different at all from the Open Source community except they are profitting from their hacking...

The fact that there was code out there that could convert EcuTEK table definitions to EcuFlash definitions is irrelevant. I suspect that there were more questionable EcuTek dealers pulling images pre-fixed ecu license, than there were Open Source converting them to EcuFlash format. The lock down on license could be argued was more to stop EcuTEK dealers pulling other EcuTEK dealer images... so who was doing the stealing?

Gav1

The inferance here seems to be that a mapper charging £250 doesnt know what he is doing or is using "cheap/stolen" software that may cause more problems than it solves?!

The guy who IS doing my car for £250 also works out of Collins motorsport in Congleton who i understand to be one of the top tuners for performance fords. Hardly fair to say he doesnt know his stuff or is using duff equipment just because he is charging less than other tuners.

I genuinely think that this is just a case that this guy is looking to attract more business from the jap car market....as lets face it cosworths and rs turbos are becoming less and less popular in the performance car market nowadays,imho.

Anyhow, as stated before i will let you know what gains i get for my £250, and yes i will be there when my car is put on the RR , so it wont be a case of just getting 2 pieces of paper and being blagged into believing my car has a 50 bhp increase.

Roll on tuesday.

Gav.

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Remember that most, if not all, well known Subaru mappers learnt their skills (some the hard way) on their own cars over several years.

I used Collins on my own Ford many years ago and was very happy with their servicing and knowledge. However, moving from one car make to another involves a learning curve that shouldn't be rushed - there will be pitfalls along the way.
The £250 may be a loss leader to build up this knowledge quickly. By all means take them up, but make sure that they don't avoid any aftercare assistance and feedback.
If they don't want to offer this aftecare then find someone else.

Nick

ZEN Performance

Yes if you read it in isolation, you could think it was a low blow, which is why I edited a number of my posts to be more clear, and apologised to Zak. However this didn't stop you from quoting a snippet of my original post from someone elses post, that is, how you say "low....".

I believe Zak has something to offer over and above the cowboys, and while I am supportive of anyone that put's their life on hold and goes into this game with both feet to make a proper living, I'm not Zak's PR man. However on this occasion it's probably right to point out why you should go to Zak.

Zak experimented on his own classic for some time before actually wanting recognition as a mapper.
Zak then purchased his own car, a JDM newage subaru and spent a considerable amount of time working with the OE ecu before offering his mapping skills for money.
His business operates out of a dedicated premises with a well equiped workshop. He has public and professional indemnity insurance, and a proper motor trade policy.
He's been doing this for some years now, he shouldn't be using anyone's car as a ginea pig. I've known VERY well respected tuners, with decades of history to make some fundamental mistakes when it comes to tuning subaru engines, simply because the things we take for granted, like appropriate AFR, basic detonation control and appropriate boost levels were simply ignored. They had no experience of engines where all these things needed to be accounted for, and their normal method destroyed 2 engines with one customer. Any established Jap tuner would have been shocked by the maps created and the methods used, but the reputation with other engines suggested he should have been a safe bet.

It may well be that someone offering a £250 remap will do a sterling job, and use the cost to attract initial business. We all started somewhere. I hope that nobody here gets screwed or a blown engine.

Again my sincere apologies to Zak, Mocom and their customers.

ELYA49

Got to admit, I feel the same way. After spending nearly £15K on a new scoob, I would only trust the likes of Mocom, Zen, AF, BR Etc.. those with proven Subaru mapping knowledge. Only a personal opinion.

Marky9074

OK, for the sake of being 'low' I will rephrase my point..

I am not particularly interested in Zak's and Mocom's reputation, as that speaks for itself.

Its the continued unfounded digs at open source software I take exception to, and the inference that it is illegal.

Yes, the credibility of the mapper is in question, who buys his £50 cable and starts mapping. But this has no relevance to the software itself. They are two separate issues.

The credibility of EcuTEK mappers is just as questionable. I was told recently of a very well respected mapper who 'just could not get it right' and the customer went elsewhere.... with his next mapper, everything was perfect. Same EcuTEK software..... he did get a full refund though. I am not sure all EcuTEK mappers would be so honest and do the right thing by their customers.

ZEN Performance

ECU Flash, the software actually used to flash the ECU, is not open source, the sourcecode is not available.

Marky9074

Hmmm, so Colby doesn't have a SVN server or release snapshots then?

JamesVTS

all the tuners on here seem to have good feedback and results of mapping, so would assume its up to each individual where take there own car

Gav. let me no how you go on tues, its always good to have your tuner local for obvious reasons, am considering gt motorsport tho not convinsed, will do some research

ZEN Performance

As I understand it, no. There have been requests for the source so people can develop it, or port it to alternate platforms (such as OSX), but to my knowledge it hasn't happened. Although I am happy to stand corrected.

One suspects that if it's all Colby's own work, then he might want to cash in, Ecutek style, and why not? Or to prevent someone else from doing the same.

Marky9074

The source is available and there is a Mac OSX version...

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

There is indeed - and very nice it is too

Interesting debate.

I can see both sides of this (if there are only two sides) Firstly the established long term traders seem to sit in the ecutek camp because that partially protects their business keeping a customer within the Ecutek dealer network (which is in turn restricted in size and location)

If there is an Ecutek dealer within close proximity of a well established tuner (for example like Mocom) then Ecutek will not allow them to purchase the software. It is regardless of whether this existing agent does anything with it or is any good.

I have not used Ecutek software to edit my maps and am sure that there are extra features within there to the features within the widely available 'other' software (and the other way around), but in reality - how much of this is actually tuned/mapped by any of the ecutek mappers in the 3 hours that they allocate to the mapping session?

I know from my own development of maps on my car that the mapping process on Subarus is a very time consuming process, particularly on the 32bit ecu as the ROM file is that much larger and to extract as much as possible from the engine, ecu, and ancilliaries takes many iterations, much logging in many different conditions that you cant do on one day let alone one afternoon.

The long of short of it is the question is; which Mapper? not which computer software they use?

Zak I know is great.

Did Jolly Green Monster become a better mapper overnight last year when he stopped using open source and bought a hefty Ecutek license?

ZEN Performance

Then I do indeed stand corrected. It's an interesting decision by colby. I remember when people were asking for the source, and he wouldn't release it, which was a year ago I suppose.

Ecutek doesn't make you a better mapper, but it has many benefits. Like when Subaru change the rom image on the ECU to one you don't have, the correct rom image, with all the maps defined, is just a phonecall away.

The arguement is not about open source vs ecutek, it's about decent mapper/tuner verses cowboy.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

JamesVTS

how'd you go on mate?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

believe this kind of remap is just a generic map loading rather than a custom remap.. need to compare like for like

see here

Simon

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

good luck.

bobster82

I have spoke to the chap at GT and he said that he will be loading his own developed map on for that price and for a custom map it would be £400

Dave Y

iTrader: (52)

so where is the chap who was having the remap tuesday?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

he will discover very quickly, hopefully not at customers expense that generic maps and subaru's don't mix

Simon