The Chief

Probably the most sensible reply in this thread

Paddi70

Love the above

Have followed one around the Haverhill Gp circuit, straight roads and roundabouts. They are quick enough to have fun with, but not enough to upset the scoob.
And the rear lights do do this funky flashing thing when pressed hard??? Cool

vindaloo

Don't knock his car... Though you could mention it's "old school (ish)" and "the Golf GTI has moved the game on"....

If you really need to, I'd suggest you've got all of the ammo you need in that "He drives like a tool and has crashed etc....". Recommend he get an advanced driving assessment. "Fast cars don't make a faster/better driver". "Any fool can mash a throttle pedal etc..."

J.

killerscoob

I Didnt know you could do mods on vauxall's to increase performance I had a 2.2 sri Vec on Y plate and did the full de-cat and didnt make a damn difference, Thats why I got rid and bought Scooby end of day it's still a Vauxall.

Isn't the VXR front wheel drive? Giving it more power would be a bad idea.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

You are comparing modded to standard, I went in an Astra running nearly 300 bhp the other day and it was quicker than the Scoobs I have been in, the torque steer didnt seem to be too bad considering.

Anyway, you say torque steer like its a bad thing, I dont mind a bit, my old Saab did it a bit too much but I kind of enjoyed it, thats with 150 bhp, my new 9-3 Aero doesnt do it, at all from what I can tell, having to get a remap to overwhelm the front wheels a bit.

The whole Scoob thing has gone from all conquering image car, star of computer games to an interesting aside, now very cheap because of the numbr about, the fact that the competition has got nearer and surpassed in some cases and also the daft road tax for a new one.

I mean, the whole twisties thing, yes you can go fast down some twisty lanes and it grips but most cars do, I can go as fast as I dare in mine but the fact that its the road not a track, there are horses, other cars, mud etc quell my enthusiasm for going any faster before the abilities of the car come into play, never mind the number of cameras etc.

The Chief

VXR's are turbocharged so thus can be remapped to great effect.
also some tuning companies retard the map in the first two gears to limit torque steer but with full boost available in 3rd onwards.

Vauxhall Opel VXR Leading UK Tuning Specialist Courtenay Sport - Astra VXR Tuning

Thorney Motorsport VX220 Turbo Power

Performance centre

exvaux

iTrader: (1)

torque steer yes but add a quaife lsd and it handles,rolling in a straight line they are quick,even on the quarter they will run 13.7 standard and over a ton,it will real in most standard imprezas

LG John

I'm sorry but I doubt that time from a standard car. My lightly modded S2000 was running 13.7 and it has the same bhp from a lagless n/a engine a quick fire 6sp gearbox, is lighter and is RWD so gets better traction from a dig. I simply don't see how a FWD car weighing over 1300kg with 240bhp can hit 13.7

killerscoob

what do you drive saxo, S2000?

killerscoob

Just looked at the links and they can be moded like you said but if you do that kind of modding on the subaru there's some on 500bhp or more there's no chance you can get that with a vxr.
Still saying that I do like vauxall's but I would never own one again.

Steve vRS

Not everyone wants a Subaru!

The VXR, although not as fast in 10% (if that) of the driving time has a nicer interior, better equipment, is cheaper to run and will be an entertaining drive.

Steve

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Here you go: all other things being equal the Scooby would win clearly, but an above poster makes a valid point about who gets on the gas first etc...

260 bhp classic

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 260Weight without Driver (KG) : 1235Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 213.910 - 60 (Secs) : 4.710 - 100 (Secs) : 12.8060 - 100 (Secs) : 8.09Quarter Mile (Secs) : 13.45Terminal Speed (MPH) : 102.50Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 13.05Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 105.82


Astra VXR

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 237Weight without Driver (KG) : 1393Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 172.870 - 60 (Secs) : 6.330 - 100 (Secs) : 15.5960 - 100 (Secs) : 9.26Quarter Mile (Secs) : 14.69Terminal Speed (MPH) : 97.07Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 14.49Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 98.76

The VXR is a nice car, but overpowered for available traction. First and second gears are a pain!

A scooby will put all the power on the road and can be modified without having to limit torque in the first two gears.

Matteeboy

Does it really matter?

My Astra (1.9CDTi 150PS Estate) has far exceeded expectations with nippy performance, good handling and massive practicality (after coming from a Golf R32 - constant vandalism) for decent money. I still like it.

However the engine died at 39k rpm (swell flaps broke - common in the 1.9 GM diesel unit also used by Alfa and Saab) and Vauxhall, although they repaired it were UTTER crap. It's also now worth so little (42k miles, 05 reg) that we are hanging onto it as it's worth more to us than the money we'd get for it.

Had the breakdown not happened I may have got another. However the Astra is not a proper performance car so the VXR just doesn't really work.

Think I'll go for BMW next.

Devildog

If it can (which I also doubt), it will be the torque. Similar drive train losses to the S2000 I would suspect (depending on efficiency of gearset)

You of all people should know that

Devildog

39k rpm

No wonder it broke

Welcome back, BTW,

Matteeboy

Doh!
39k miles.

Cheers - Funeral went okay (on Saturday) and now starting to look forwards again.

FIL talking about getting a new 911 - probably a turbo. Suddenly I like quick cars again...

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, but, the S2000 has 162 lbs/ft and the Astra 236 lbs/ft, the Astra has massive front tyres with all the weight over them, fairly modern mechanicals to contain all that grunt, its probably limited and traction controlled as well so I doubt it would be that difficult to launch, my Saab has a little bit hp less (at the moment) and 15 lbs/ft less and its very civilised when booted.

lightwave693

thanks for all the replys, been interesting reading

im not that bothered if he has the faster car, if i spent 19k on a new performance car id want to be able to beat a 10year old scoob..... nice looking car it has to be said, his numberplate ends with FEM tho with is a bit girly

Rich

mg driver

standard vxr wont get anywhere near 13.7 down the standing quarter.
Check out the stats ,cant say its gospel but in my experience its quite accurate.
VauxhallAstra VXR 05 237 1393 172.87 6.33 15.59 9.26 14.69 97.07 14.49 98.76

weight,power to weight,0-60,0-100,60 -100,standing 1/4 and terminal on road ,standing quarter and terminal on a drag strip.

Ive seen a couple run at pod and traction launching was a problem traction control or not,they were only just ducking under 15 seconds.

RedScoob

The VXR is a capable car. Stats are one thing, but on the road they seem to be able to live up to the hype. Seen a couple on the road interested in "playing" and we've had a laugh.

killerscoob

Getting very technical now I haven't a clue about all these numbers, All I know is my car is quick and slower than some.

RedScoob

Never a truer word spoken.

what would scooby do

Sleep easy in the knowledge that your "pal" is driving a poxhall

gazza-uk

Class

LG John

The engine torque really doesn't matter in a drag strip environment. Both the S2000 and the VXR (or any other car for that matter) would be quickly in their peak engine efficiency ranges and remain there till they cross the line. Therefore both the VXR and S2000 would be deploying a high percentage of their maximum power down the whole strip.

Yes its torque that physically moves the car but bhp indicates how much energy the engine can produce and to get from point a to point b as quickly as possibly you need as much energy as you can muster [yes I realize that the energy is derived from an input force].

As a little exercise and to satisfy my curiosity I did a very simple ratio calculation.

An S2000 has 240bhp and 162 lbft of torque. Therefore it has 1.4bhp for every 1lbft.
A top fuel dragster has circa 8300bhp and circa 5000 lbft. Therefore it has 1.66bhp for every 1lbft. A 335d has 282bhp and 428 lbft of torque. It has 0.65bhp for every 1lbf. What I'm driving at here is that torque doesn't make a drag car, bhp does [notwithstanding that torque features in the bhp calculation]

FWIW my 60ft times when I got my launches spot on were 1.9s IIRC and were not that far off scooby's and Evo's there were dumped off the line. I don't think I've seen many sub 2s 60ft times from a FWD car that wasn't wearing slicks.

For whomever asked I currently have an STI 5 with around 300-310bhp. I sold my S2000 in December last year and I still miss it. Fancy an Exige S next

Edited to try and be more specific so this doesn't become a 10 page argument on torque and bhp.

Mitchy260

Standard VXR vs Standard classic impreza

VXR wins everytime above 30mph.

FWD losses = Low
4wd losses = High

Impreza would need 260bhp to match the 240bhp from the Astra.

As to 13.7 @ over 100mph for a standard VXR I think not, mid 14's in mid 90's @ pod.
Would need a 300hp example to break 100 and sub 14 due to traction limitations off the line. Off the line, Impreza may well get a 1.7 60ft time vs 2.4 60ft time for the astra. (astra already 0.7secs down just from the launch)

Astra will catch up when rolling though.

The torque argument is a non starter, turbo torque is produced low down, N/A torque is produced all the way through to red line. S2000 revs to 8000rpm, VXR will be dead and buried by 6500rpm.

Hence why a 147lbft CTR can keep if not beat the pace of a 250lbft Gti

As to O.P.....standing starts and 'twisties' you'll have him. Up and running, i wouldn't bother

Devildog

Kenny,

If we accept that BHP = Torque (ft/lbs) x rpm/5252, then torque and rpm make a drag car as "BHP". But we are talking semantics.

Your calculation is simplistic, as it relies on peak readings and not the area under the curve and all it really demonstrates is that an S2000 revs higher than a diesel BMW.

Leaving the torque multipying effect of gearing out of it for a moment, I suspect that the VXR may be producing more derived power from its engine on average during a "change up at optimum revs" run through the gears than the S2000, notwithstanding that the peaks are pretty much identical, due to the characteristics of the torque curve.

If this is the case, then theoretically, using the power = work done/time formula if true power as measured in watts is greater, then either more work will be done in the same time, or it will take less time to do the same work.

Very simply, all else being equal, the car producing the highest average power during the run will be the fastest. (which is, of course, blindingly obvious )

But that makes 3 huge assumptions

1) Gearing is a constant (which its not - it is a massively underestimated factor in power/torque at the wheels)

2) the VXR actually does have a larger area under the curve in that rpm range.(which it may or may not)

3) All else (weight/energy losses/traction/etc, etc, are constant) which they most certainly are not.

BTW, we pretty much agree on this, as you know, but your calculations for the dragster - vs- the Beemer/S2000 were a bit meaningless as far as this matter is concerned and for all the turbo "fan boys" on here some expansion may help to explain why a "gutless" S2000 probably would spank a VXR flat out through the gears, and have the measure of a mildly tuned impreza once rolling (where 4 wd traction advantages are nor relevant)

It may also explain why comments such as "my car has 3billion bhp" are pretty meaningless unless comparing like with like.

But we agree on that too

We should have that beer sometime

LG John

Good post and you are right, I do agree with it

The S2000-dragster-BMW thing was because I was curious to know if, as a ratio, a top-fuel dragster's power was derived more from massive twisting force at relatively low RPM or from a not so massive force (lol, 5000 lbft not massive!!!) at higher RPM. The exercise does show the dragster isn't about big low-mid range grunt as it's ratio suggests its power it made pretty high up in the rev range. I guess this is why they aren't diesels.

As for VXR vs S2000 area under the curve during optimal gear changing you may well be correct but if there is a difference I doubt it would be much. If you change up just on the limiter in an S2000 it drops back in at around 7000-7500rpm (IIRC) and that's a good 1000rpm higher than the vtec point. It pulls hard and relentlessly from about 7500-8900 and feels very consistent in it's pull across that range. It's not worth arguing the point. I don't have an S2000, never raced a VXR when I did and haven't even sat in the pauxhal.

However, I still stand by my point that a standard VXR is never running 13.7 down the strip.

Incidentally, I recently got caught up in a massive debate on torque vs bhp on MLR and it's probably one of the most difficult debates to have. The problem being that in an engine bhp is a function of torque so they are related. My argument on such matters is this: torque is a force; it tells you how much your engine can twist the crank, gears, axles, etc. But it can be a very misleading figure on it's own. For example, a guy at the gym might claim he can free bench 140kg. That's pretty impressive but what if he can only do it once then he's knackered, and what if the lift takes him 5 seconds*. The guy he's bragging to may only be able to lift 100kg off his chest but can do 12 reps at about 2 seconds a lift. On the face of it the guy doing the lighter lift appears to be the weaker but in this case he is the superior athlete and crucially is working harder.

It is for this reason that if I was only allowed to know two of the following three to judge how fast a car is (fast in terms of flat out through the gears):

1. Peak power
2. Weight
3. Peak torque

...I would always, always choose 1 and 2. I'm yet to see anyone put across a convincing argument that knowing 2 and 3 only is better.

Obviously in an ideal world I'd want to know weight, drag co, gearing, transmission losses, frictional losses and the area under the torque curve but that's not very practical for, 'my car is quicker than yours' debates

* ignore for a minute that slower form in weight lifting is usually better.

killerscoob

Guys! You have compleatly lost me with a these facts and figures has the vxr been on top gear yet? And what was the time! What was the scooby time? Compare the two and you have your winner.

LG John

I doubt they'll have had a classic scooby round the track. Besides it's hardly conclusive as the conditions are often so variable. Different time of year, wet, damp, dry, sunny, etc.