gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

thats my wrist slapped or wot

same topic i thought - tuning

no prob

daz4065

I actually bought a late 03 sti uk. Was offered a house off a builders plan and flogged the car to generate money. Then the sickness and shakes kicked in and i had to get another one.

Missed the crack of waving to fellow scoob owners and of course i missed the flat four noise and boost. However, now it is time for more power and torque. Hopefully within the next few months i will have the car sorted. Wanna see what DMC1980 has got done and how happy he is with the motor!!

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure he will be happy

GAWLEY

In relation to the 97ron we have over here being a limiting factor, Tractive motorsport in england have built a classic shape Type R impreza and it runs 315bhp and 315 lbft and its mapped to run on normal 95ron!!

This is also using on of the smallest turbos out there (greddy TD04) that was thought to only be capable of around 290bhp.

Some result which im sure not many tuners could claim to have achieved

I suppose these are the type of figures you get when an ex Motec and TTE engineer works on your car

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

The ISDC web site covers this pretty well, fuel grades are important yes, but impressive power gains are achivable on lower octains, ie 97 ron, 95 ron, this is done by remapping, (Andy Forrest ) if you want real over the top power, well the then ya need the good stuff or octain booster, although prodrive and subaru are against fuel boosters and in fact if used with shell v power will actually damage your engine.

I know of one guy has a scooby with over 450bhp, as confirmed on a rollin road, but a car with lower bhp whooped his butt all because it had the torque, bhp counts yes, but its the torque figures that really count.
Remember not two rolling roads ever Give the same figures. FACT

Andy Forrest comes over a few times a year to map the ISDC boys cars, he does not use a rollin road, he maps the cars for real time, on the road set ups.

So this is where it gets dificult to pick which route and who to go with, every body has there views and ideas, some good, some bad and mostly aint got a clue wot there on about cus they heard it through pigeon post.

i learnt a very valuable lesson a few years back, be conservitive on what you want to do, unless your a man with a very large wage, rich parents or dont mind being up to your eyes in debt, or like rebuilding engines twice a year
and the car off the road all the time

So what i want is Drivability, durability, reliability


NOW I GOT THAT OFF ME CHEST

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

No you dont. 500bhp+ is quite achievable on 97 RON SUL

Perhaps once approaching 600+, better fuel would be a wise move if its available.

But you can make plenty of power on what we get at the pumps here.

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

Read again

i wud call 600 bhp OTT

now a days up to 500 bhp is the norm for tuners, but like i said big big money, internal mods, turbos, mappin etc, thats why they can run 97, but any more ya need the good stuff

do ya know wot bhp a typical wrc car is

let me tell ya = 320bhp approx tops, depending on the manufacturer Ford being 300 with 400 torque

how do i know

cus i cut the boys out when they **** up - Rally Rescue BMMC 10+ yrs

so ya see thats where i get my info from

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

And what relevance does a WRC car have to a road car ? none whatseover.

They are strangled by so many things, so have to go to extreme measures to make the power and torque they do.

bpm1588

im sure these guys can get loads of power on 97 ron but it depends on the other mods.in the usa guys have huge power on 91 ron fuel but they have bought the full blitz catalog to get there.i know their cars are 2.5 but even so.
running a fairly standard sti on 97 ron with an exhaust and remap you're not going to get more than 330.yes you could add reverse inlet manifolds,fuel rails,equal length manifolds etc etc but thats just nuts imho,unless you've scouped the lotto.
i had a word with andy forrest about my next mods if i wanted more power. he suggested a de-cat 3" exhaust, 20g turbo,aps induction kit and a remap,that would take me too around 360+bhp.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Take US figures with a pinch of salt. Quite often their quoted wheel figures, tend to be similar to UK flywheel figures. American dynos have a hbit of reading quite high.


And their US 93 PON fuel, is equivalent to 97/98 RON UK fuel. They use Pump Octane Number, which is ( RON+MON )/2

Not the same as the UK RON rating.

bpm1588

"quote"I was at a rolling road day once at east coast customs and there was an STI there that had the TSL333 conversion but didnt have the power it should have had with it.


the guy who owns tracktive does the mapping for tsl

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

To be honest mate u r a

relevance being internal & external mods do have to be made to make over 450 bhp or ya just being plain

do you know how they restrict it, by a simple restrictor placed in the turbo, less air = less power, so as for being strangled by so many things pal, u r bascially talkin bollocks.

if an engine is built to run 300 bhp it will run that, mappin does quite a lot, just as bpm says, simple mapping and exhaust will get you a safe 330bhp

Any tuner worth his salt will tell you boxer engine safe to 400 to 450 bhp, but with a few mods eg FMC, after that internal mods will have to be done, decked block, oil pump, water pump, crank, etc ,especially when using std fuel, but better to use the good stuff

Tell me this Do you know the differance between an sti engine to the wrx engine, wot makes the differance, and dont say 1 has a red manifold, duh!

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

Yanks being yanks, mmmmmmmmmmmm

but then again, no 2 dynos in the uk give the same reading FACT, CCC had a articlie on it as did performance Ford a couple of years back, they actually went out and proved it.

funny how most of the tuners get there stuff from them, decked blocks etc, we ave a guy in the ISDC who you should ave a chat to, he is building big power scooby at the mo, he will tell ya wot ya gotta do to get the power, and he as to run booster wi 95 ron fuel.............

cus he's across the border where they cant even get Super unleaded

GT Performance is the dude, r y a member of the ISDC, great bunch of lads with years and years of experience of scoobys, driving, building, improving,
ya shud join, then maybe ya wud get some hard facts and not guess work

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I can only laugh at a reply like that, especially when you dont even seem to have read what I said, and you make strange assumptions.

When you have driven, maybe even owned, or perhaps even seen a car built that makes more than 100, 200, or even a true 300bhp, or have some understanding of what is involved to do that ( apart from reading BS on Snet ), maybe you will begin to understand what it takes to make a car go quickly.

Quoted power figures are one thing, and more often than not they too are BS. When a car can peform on road or track, that is what is important.

Good luck in getting there, however you decide to do it.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

LOL.

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

so steve
wot had u to do to build a 500 bhp engine??

jus curious

unleaded, super, super+ and one hell of a big wallet

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

well sun shine i have built engines, hot rods and raced & built lightning rods, so dont tell me about racing mate, cus i know, so grow up and smell the roses, get ur facts right before slaggin, and read the lines, jus because we dont agree wi wot u say
at 40 years of age stevie i think i know some of wot i write about, heres a good'n for ya, wot wud be the scariest ride u had, mine wud be an opel mante 400, followed by a mk1 rs 2000 and thats jus the classic stuff i have had over the years, i think urs wud be a merry go round...

good luck to u 2 cus ya need it for being such a prude, and its good to see ya registered wi the ISDC, good lads there

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

At 40 years of age, you'd think you could show a little maturity.

Regardless of what I drive, or how I could achieve 500+ with a Subaru, no doubt with your wisdom, yours would all be faster anyway.

Define a scary ride ? Not sure mine would qualify for that, but I think its a little bit faster than your average car, and it makes me very merry indeed. Maybe it is a merry go round after all !!!.

But who am I to say whats fast or slow It definately wouldnt compare to your MK1 or your Manta. I know that for sure.

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

well im only 2 20yr olds stuck togetheir, so where do ya race out of interests sake.

by the way ur the one whos acting like a kid mate, so expect to get treated like one, u took the **** out of others so expect the same in return

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

well im only 2 20yr olds stuck togetheir, so where do ya race out of interests sake. As for being mature, well wot can i say = gogogogagaga

u took the **** out of others so expect the same in return

urban

iTrader: (1)

Stevie,

Ignoring all the other nonsense on this one, I trust you know Michael fairly well.

Care to comment on his work?

I'm toying with the idea of a bit more power, however I don't particulary wish to have a load of hassle because of it.
I'd guess he maps within a safe limit, but nice to have a little background.

Currently have an MY05 UK STI with PPP

Thanks,
Shaun

dmc1980

can i comment seeing as im here? i know michael very well, have done for 15 years at least. His work is that of a true car enthusiast and a perfectionist when it comes to working at them. He will discuss with you what you want and tune the car to whatever you want, and for what you want to spend.

There is many many cars out there, more than subarus, all off which have been built or tuned by him, and they are all great going cars.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Good man, that's the type of answer I was looking for.

I think you did say that he can do ecutek remaps too?

Also, where abouts in Mallusk is he?

Thanks,

Shaun

gojonnyjo

iTrader: (1)

We have found that there is a wide variation in power output reported by different rolling roads

There are many reasons for this – here are just a few:
1. Variable loading and acceleration rates.
2. Varying effectiveness of cooling systems
3. Different diameter rollers
4. Different surface on rollers
5. Compensation factor applied
6. Operation of rollers


1. Most rolling roads control the acceleration of the rollers to a fixed rate. The slower the acceleration then the higher the effect on heat soak of intercoolers. This can reduce power. With a high acceleration rate then turbo spool can be affected resulting in a lower boost level than would normally be achieved on the road. Different gearing throughout model years will affect run up speed on some rollers. Consider that on the road the acceleration rate of the car will change relative to torque output. On the rollers it is held at a constant rate regardless of output.




2. There are no rolling roads that can properly simulate the airflow normally achieved on the open road through the intercooler, radiator and induction system. Proper cooling simulation would require a moving floor and variable speed fans (as found in professional wind tunnels). Some rolling roads do a better job than others, using high-powered centrifugal fans. Others just have a single axial flow low-pressure unit. On occasion this is just aiming at the intercooler and not actually producing any significant flow through it. Very few rolling roads cater for top-mounted intercoolers. Proper flow through the intercooler is critical in order to simulate normal running conditions a 10 degree increase in charge temperature can cause a considerable loss in power The airflow can also affect the MAF signal on cars fitted with an induction kit, this can lead to totally wrong air fuel ratios existing during the test and knock/detonation may be experienced.


3. The diameter of the rollers and their distance apart will have an effect on the heat generated at the tyre interface. This requires power. Some rolling roads will calculate the rolling losses during the run down phase of the power run. This however only measures the drag on the tyres and transmission under zero engine load conditions. No rolling road software can calculate the increased loss occurring when the tyres are fully loaded. This is dependant on the individual tyre size, profile, construction and compound. Some rolling roads don't even try to measure the rundown losses ! The DynoDynamics for example, when running in 'shoot' mode just uses a lookup figure from a table to estimate the losses ! Simply pump your tyres up to 50 psi and find yourself some bhp. It has been known for some rollers to produce 15bhp gains just from warming up the transmission and tyres over a few runs.


4. Surface finish of the rollers can also affect the power loss due to friction losses and tyre deformation. Smooth rollers are prone to allowing tyre slip on high output cars. This can either cause the bhp figure to rise or fall depending on the how the engine rpm is calculated. If rpm is calculated via the roller speed monitor then slip will generally cause measured bhp to fall, however as the engine torque reduces at higher rpm the rollers eventually “catch up” with the tyres and get inertia “kick” as they synchronise speed. This normally shows as a blip of 20-50bhp in the power graph close to maximum rpm. If the engine rpm is read directly from the engine then slip will show as a considerable increase in displayed bhp.
This is due to rolling roads measuring torque x engine rpm. If the software thinks the same torque is produced at the higher (slip) rpm then the power figure is multiplied in direct proportion to the percentage of tyre slip occurring.

5. Most rolling roads “correct” the measured bhp to a din standard for atmospheric pressure and temperature (and some don’t bother!). The purpose of this correction factor is to allow for example a comparison between a five deg C winter day power run and a 25deg C summer day power run. The cooler air in winter being denser will (all else equal) produce more power than the 25 degree summer air. The din calculation compensates for the different air density and corrects all results to reflect what would have been achieved on a standard temperature and pressure day. This correction works well on normally aspirated cars but is inappropriate to turbo charged cars.The rollers which do not compensate are likely to read high results in winter and low results in summer. The din calculation looks at only air inlet temperature. There are however, two temperatures that affect a turbo cars output – air inlet temperature at the filter intake and air temperature after intercooler (charge temp) The air temperature at the filter does not affect the turbo car in the same way as it does in a non-turbo car. This is due to the turbochargers ability to partially compensate by spinning faster and still compressing the same amount of air regardless of temperature. There is however, a price to pay for this in increased exhaust gas back pressure and higher turbo discharge temperature which is dependant on density recovery in the intercooler.
The air temperature after the intercooler will normally be higher on a rolling road due to the reduced cooling airflow. Depending on the ECU this may or may not be compensated for in the fuel and ignition maps. Power output will be reduced as a result. It is not uncommon to see a 40 degree C rise in charge temperature on a rolling road run. This is not compensated for within the rolling road software.
Some ECU’s have there own internal compensations to adjust boost pressure in relation to atmospheric pressure and temperature. This also is not considered in the rolling road din correction factor and the two can either work together or against each other.

6. The rolling road operator is able to affect the power result either up or down. If the car is not fully up to temperature, particularly the exhaust system and turbo then power will be down. Also if the car is run a number of times in short duration then heat soak can also adversely affect results. If the clutch is only partially depressed during overrun then the drag figure will be increased, this will increase the measured power output.

The above just skims some of the issues with rolling roads but hopefully gives an insight into why figures can vary so much from roller to roller, from car to car and from day to day.
It is our experience that a 15% variation exists across the UK’s rolling road facilities.
Now add to this the fact that you can gain up to 10% extra power depending upon the fuel/additives used (even a 3ml per litre dose of NF can add 5%) and it starts to become pointless to compare results between cars.
The table below shows the variation that may be claimed/achieved for similar specs depending upon which rollers/temperature/pressure/fuel/tyres etc etc.
98 Octane average result UK Rollers Variation Increased octane


Span of 15% across Rolling Roads (+/- 7.5% from average)
+ up to 10% additional power using NF/Methanol/Race Fuel

Optimax Average result --- UK Rollers Variation --- +Increased octane
--------- 300 bhp -------------278-322bhp-------------352bhp
--------- 320 bhp -------------296-344bhp-------------378bhp --------- 340 bhp -------------314-346bhp-------------399bhp
--------- 360 bhp -------------333-378bhp-------------423bhp
----------380 bhp -------------351-409bhp-------------446bhp
--------- 400 bhp -------------370-430bhp-------------470bhp
--------- 450 bhp -------------417-483bhp-------------528bhp
----------520 bhp -------------481-560bhp-------------611bhp



Tuning, Road and Rollers

Engines tuned on bench dynos or rolling roads are generally mapped at fixed rpm intervals. Whilst this allows an approximate setting to be achieved, real life conditions are always occurring not at static rpm but at a rate of acceleration. A fixed speed derived map will be slower on the road than a map optimised to the cars actual acceleration rate (although the rolling road derived map may well produce bigger numbers on the rollers).
This is one reason why we tune our turbo cars on the road under real life temperature and conditions.


AndyForrestPerformance

SO LIKE I SAID EVERYONE TO THERE OWN, BUT MORE INFO YA CAN GET, THE MORE SURE OF THE PROPER AND SAFE WAY TO GO, AFTER ALL, GOING THE WRONG WAY CUD COST YA A LOT MORE

APOLLOGIES TO RENNO

daz4065

Thinkin that Andy Forrest is the way to go cos he maps on the actual road. Does anyone know if OMA map on or off the road and does it make a real difference to the on road delivery of power. It seems it does!

dmc1980

they dont have a rolling road daz, so take from that what you want