Jesus H

Is that your story Sam or is that the official line? That's an entirely different story from what I was told by a Toad employee.

"OE Alarm" Sam

Jesus H - (formerly Evolution Ice isn't it?)
So, your posts, infering the Toad system to be an inferior quality copy of the Avital product was posted on this forum, for all to see, based on hear say then?

Well, not all Toad employees are involved in development and very few have direct contact with Liteon or the production facility. I wouldn't expect every employee to be versed in both Toad and Avital product history dating back to 1999.
Maybe they read it in a forum post somewhere, and so thought it must be true - a dangerous thing.

I'm still a Toad employee and work directly with Liteon. The information in my previous post is not "my story" or even Toad's version, but Liteon's official line and I can't help thinking that this is the most reliable xource.

As much as it pained me not to respond to your post over the weekend, I waited untill I had confirmed the facts with Liteon yesterday morning before I posted my reply.
Perhaps you too would be wise to check the substance of your material before posting.

SS

Jesus H

And just where did I say anything about the quality of the products. I simply pointed out that the Avital Cat 1 was approved BEFORE the Toad. And that the Toad was based around that system. Since the Avital was approved BEFORE the Toad it wouldnt have been possible for the Avital to have been based around the Toad. Well unless you know someone with a time machine.

500

Yep suit on. why cant an installer work mobile in the right weather???

I used to install in a workshop, and have tools that I need, so If I install one into mine, or a mates, I cant do the same quality job?

Agreed that turbo timers, remote starters, and microwave sensors all invalidate the CAT1 Thatcham status unless fitted when tested for approval

still wire into the same place as in the workshop so why not as good a job. If you've worked in a workshop, you suddnely cant fit anywhere else but a workshop ????

Used to fit the M36T2 back in the 90's, I cant believe they are still out there, their alarms are harder to add on to without the proper armed output's or have they changed?

"OE Alarm" Sam

Em, anything about quality? That would be here...

Justification for such a flippent comment would be interesting, as the Toad (and Sigma) products feature high quality surface mounted components, have 95/54EC and 95/56EC approval and are produced in a production facility accredited with ISO 9001, ISO 14001 and QS9000 j- ust off the top of my head.


You just don't seem to be getting the point Jesus H (Evolution ICE?) - I'm not suggesting that the Avital is based on the Toad product! I'm simply correcting your post stating that the Toad product is based on the Avital system and you inferrence that Toad copied it.

As I stated, after confirmation with the original manufacturer of both products, NIETHER of the original Toad or Avital products were based on the other - they were BOTH based on the same Liteon platform (the same Printed Circuit Board, transmitter design, electronic housing and tooling etc).
The Thatcham accreditation date (in 1999) of the original products has nothing to do with what has happened in the years since (or at the time - if you think a product can be copied, manufactured and Thatcham approved in the space of one month you clearly have no idea of production!) It is the original Avital product (originally produced by Liteon in 1999) that has been copied/reverse engineered when it was moved to another manufacturer by DEI to produce the current Avital product- read my post again!

No time machines involved if you read it slowly.

The Toad product was not, has not and is not a copy of any existing product, just a different variation of Liteon's platform design. It is the only one of the two original products that is still produced by the same manufacturer that manufactured it originally in 1999. I fail to see how you can claim it to be a copy or based on anything else than the Liteon platform?
Is the X-Type a copy of the Mondeo, the Saab 93 a copy of the Vectra, just because the Ford and Vauxhall were registered first? They may be based on the same platform, but that does infer that one is based on the other, one is a copy of the other, or that one is better than the other due to chronological order of first registration - in fact it could even be argued that the extra development time of the later vehicles goes in their favour.

Point made. Enough said...surely?

SS
Toad UK
OE Technical Services Manager - Sigma (Subaru) and Toad Product Development

Jesus H

Is it the official line for Toad to misquote people ?

What i said was.

"Have a look at the new Viper alarms dude. Viper 460xv - same price as a Toad but better built and has more options available."

This has nothing to do with the comparison between the Avital and Toad systems but you have thrown it in without quoting the whole sentence in order to justify your comments and your accusation. I have not inferred that the Toad and Avital products were of a lesser quality when compared to each other.

I did not say anything about the quality of the products with regards to each other but the Viper systems are of a significantly higher build quality and I stand by that statement.

weslad

the lad who fits my alarms and has got a very very good rep , recommended one of the new laser line1 systems to me with anti hijack , window closer ect ect , he also sell cliffords but regardless of what anyone says lots of clifords have had problems........im going to add anextra alarm to the car as well one that beeps when the door handles / wheels get a little knock or touched (forgot the name of it)

"OE Alarm" Sam

No, Jesus H, not the officical line, that was my mistake.
Nothing underhand was intended by quoting only what I considered to be the relevent section of text, but fair play to you, I have your Avital/Toad and Viper/Toad posts mixed up there, so my apologies for that - when you asked "did I say anything about quality" I thought you meant generally, when infact I see you meant specifically in the Toad/Avital discussion.
The two subjects had blurred into one at 04.35.

Just so my position is clear, there are two separate subjects here -
1. The Toad and Avital product history - I think we have done this to death now and both agree that neither is based on the other. They have different features but share the original manufacturer's platform and this in no way questions the originality or standard of either product.

2. Your "better built" than the Toad post - Whilst everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion, your post doesnt mention that this is your opinion, but comes accross to me to be more a statement of fact. As such, I feel you should justify it with some detail or reasoned comparison. Especially so, when you are a dealer who no-doubt will naturally be biased toward your own stocked product.
I think the fact that you didn't mention that you are a dealer, but infact come accross as an impartial end-user in your earlier posts also makes me a little uneasy - you still haven't confirmed if you are indeed Evolution ICE, but I'm assuming so as we have a habit of locking horns.

In all honesty, as we've already established, the Toad unit dates back to 1999 so really is due an update. Although the circuit board, components etc are reliable the enclosure and packaging is dated when compared to newer product such as the Sigma S-Series too.

Probably me being oversensitive from lack of sleep - perhaps just IMO would have helped

SS

Lee-B STi Type UK

Oh dear, I feel like I started something here!

So now all the posters comments are read and there have been disagreements? i'm still not 100% on what to do alarm make/model/installer

Looks like to me like, toad and clifford are the most common and both perform well.
mobile installers can take a good while at fitting same as in-store to achieve same result

Lets wrap this one up and make love not war !

Lee

Knighty99

iTrader: (1)

Christ mate u still not got one sorted mate?
As long as its cat1 and keeps your car safe thats all u want really mate

Just try an 'ip dip dogs s**t' selection method? With the two makes

Dan

MotorG Raf

Its world war 3!!!!

In my opinion Toad and Avital are very similar. Viper is a far better product then the Toad. But this is just my opinion.

"OE Alarm" Sam

I'm not familiar with the Viper, so can't comment.

Despite all my lengthy posts on behalf of the Toad product, I must admit to having the Sigma S30 on my own car.
The unit's a fraction of the size of the Toad, has greater programming flexibilityand more features.
8 accesory outputs are available, a built in closed loop circuit, two accessory sensor sockets (one with dual stage input and pre-warn facility) and a Key Theft Protection feature.
The S-series systems will be standard fitment on the 08MY Impreza and subsequent new UK models, so a transmitter will also be available shortly to fit within the existing Subaru ignition key - the vehicle's key design will remain the same.

SS

MotorG Raf

Sigma Sam whats your view on the clifford products and extras such as BlackJax?

You have to admit that directed are moving forward and always improving their products. Toad has not moved forward for many years.

"OE Alarm" Sam

Ahhh - enough, don't drag me into another!!

Again, I don't think that it's right for me to give an opinion on the Clifford products themselves, but in their defence to some earlier posts in this thread, I do feel that installation is all important. The more complex the system/greater number of features and accessories added, that a good installation is essential for good reliability. I'm sure, as the Toad and Sigma product, most alarm returns of any brand, are not actually product defects these days, but can be traced back to poor installation or incorrect adjustment.

Personally, I do have my doubts over the legality of Blackjax in the UK. The product was intended for the US market and my understanding of UK/EU legislation with regard to Cat 5 and other "After-Theft" products is that they must not stop a vehicle in motion or take control of the vehicle away from the driver (UK Construction and Use Regs).
I fully understand the merits of the system and did work on a similar project for a while, however, it could not be marketed due to the UK/EU legislation and our liability, as the UK distributor/manufacturer, was a concern in the event of an "incident".
These days, when you are limited as to what action you can legally take to defend your own home from an intruder, I'm afraid that a car-thief also has rights. If he were injured as a result of not understanding the system and was involved in a collision with another vehicle that did not expect the vehicle to stop/slow to such a degree, and the device fitted did not conform to UK Construction and Use Regs and was found to be resposible, then perhaps both parties would have a case.
There have been no cases brought against such a product installation yet that I am aware of, so it's still an un-tested area of law at the moment as to who would ulimately be responsible in the event of a claim.
This is just my understanding of course and I would be interested to here DEI/Clifford's standpoint on UK sales.

As already mentioned in this thread the current Toad range dates back to 1999, but you have to remember that DEI's main market is the US and Toad is a UK company and concentrate on the specific UK market requirements. As such the volume of stock we sell in the UK is far less, and development costs of new products (which run into tens of thousands for time, tooling EU testing and Thatcham approval) would have to passed on in the product to UK buyers.
There are thoughts to replace the current Toad range, but we doubt that the UK market would take a cost increase, and as more and more new vehicle's sold in the UK have a Cat 1 system as standard we are not guaranteed the quantity of product in the coming years would cover the development costs.
Despite it's age, the current Toad range does offer most features that UK buyers expect and is reliable so there is a case of "if it ain't broke..."

The only way we could counter these costs and increase the market would be to distribute in the US and Europe, however there are huge costs involved in setting this up. Additionally the general US market is less "security based" (which is our main area with Thatcham products etc) but more "convenience feature based" such as Remote Start etc which are not permitted under UK/EU legislation.
Price is a very sensitive issue in the UK as most customer regard an alarm system as a "grudge purchase" and there are plenty of other systems from Europe that have larger market volumes that keep their prices down and operate on very low margins, so expensive product development programs have to be carefully considered.
This makes "moving forward" difficult, especially as there is only so much that you do with an alarm and immobiliser system for the UK. As we've discussed before Raf, our customer tend to take the more basic systems without accessories where cost is all important, so adding features that they will not use at the risk of increasing the product cost is a cocern. A case in point is a current thread on the security forum
https://www.scoobynet.com/security-1...-2-alarms.html
- no reference to product features, installer quality etc.

All this isn't to say that Toad Group have stood still, the Sigma S-Series product range was launched in 2004 and is still one of the most advanced systems available. As I mention in my post above it is far smaller, and has more features that the equivelent Toad branded product, but unfortunately few customers (including Subaru) will be taking advantage of all the systems additional features, so was this "move forward" really worthwhile.

Are you familiar with the Sigma S-Series features etc? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (..opinions!) on it.

SS

spaspeckerthedull

don't get me wrong - as I said in my original post I'm not having a go at mobile installers (it's what I used to do) and having had first hand experience it's my opinion that a workshop install is a better environment, you're not travelling to the customer with the possibility of getting caught in traffic in an unfamiliar area (lessening the time on the job) you're not constricted by amount of daylight, rain, wind (interfering with my pyropen - it happens!! call me old fashioned but I wouldn't want to attempt to fit a CAT1 in the p*ssing rain - again) lack of power, plus you've got unlimited access to the THE most important tool you'll ever need - I am course referring to the kettle!! lol