So, to sum up then, anybody who doesn't agree with a law or thinks it is unfair is justified in breaking said law to their own ends?

Wonderful, we can all just lapse into a world of chaos and anarchy then. NO rules, no taxes, survival of the fittest. Fu*k everybody else, I'll do what I want. Oh, except nothing will work, nothing will get made, no farming, no Scoobs. No anything. We can all go back to eating grubs and scratching each others *****.

There are many things I do not like about what successive governments do, but I get the chance to vote them out. That is what living in a democracy is all about. You cannot please all of the people all of the time. That is what democracy means, the majority view is what shapes our world. It does not mean that just because a certain facet of current policy pisses you off, you can go break the law. I'm sure that there are things Mr Felstead doesn't really care about, but really grate other members of the population. However, they do not ignore the law because of that. I do not think that I should have to pay 40% tax for the same services as someone on the lower rate, but if I want that changed, then I will vote for the party that gives me the best chance of achieving that, not by breaking the law.

Geezer

 

I am not going to expand on my last comments re breaking the law with regards the poll tax. I think it puts across my point sufficiently.

Just to clarify what the position is with regards to any crime I may have committed.

I have never been convicted of any criminal offence, I did not stand before a court to answer any charges, I like millions others never got to that stage. I was quite prepared to go that far however, fortunately the massive and overwhelming response of like minded people forced the policy to change. The Poll Tax was a special case and the majority of people do understand that.

I paid all the arrears off in one lump sum; I had kept the money aside in the hope that the policy would change. I also paid a large sum to cover all costs incurred from the process invoked by my protest. I would have been far better off financially had I just paid up and moaned about it. I would have suffered far less stress also. I chose to stick to my principles and this country is a better place because of that.

I also have a clean driving license.

 

Geezer,
if the majority of the people feel that the law is unjust and have tried by reasonable means to get their viewpoint across and no viable alternative is offered by a Party that will get elected on the basis of having other reasonable polices what do you sugest?

It is because of people who were prepared to stand up for what they feel was injustice that any way forward has been found for the majority of people who are unable to act or speak for themselves whether it be because of the standard of education they have recieved, social group, or financial position that they are in
Or would you prefer that unless educated to a high level, financialy independent or of a high social status that they should not have any voice or input in the way that their lives are governed?

 

Actually you can detect what people are watching on telly. Whether the vans do this is another matter. You are right that basically all they need to do is pick on addresses that dont have a TV licence.

It happened to me. I had a telly but wasnt using it. I could prove it too as it wasnt plugged into the arial and the arial didnt work anyhow.

Unfortunantly I was using a satilite (which at the time didnt have BBC or ITV) and required a TV licence. I didnt know this. But I got a away with it with a bit of blagging.

I didnt pay my poll tax either. Thought it was a stupid way of collecting rates and un-enforcable - which I demonstrated by not paying.

bkar

 

Adamson
Lighten up please - it was a joke. There's been enough talk on this site recently about censorship. I don't drag up what happened over fifty years ago but I fully realise we must not forget either. I'm not xenophobic either - I worked with a team of Italians for five years in London, I ski in four european countries, but then on the other hand i'm against the Euro. My uncle nearly died in a Japanese concentration camp but i'm driving a Japanese car (and presumably so are you.......). It's just my opinion and almost certainly different to yours. The point is that thankfully we are lucky enough to live in a country where most of the time we still have the right to express an opinion. Better this than the alternatives. I don't see people flocking to want to live Chile, Burma or dozens more countries and we all know why.

It also seems to be that having to pay for/ways to evade a TV licence provokes more comment!

I disageed with johnfelstead's original post but after hearing his response I had the decency to say it was well put.

Geezer - what can I say - wonderful post! - so when we descend into the pit and I want a favour it will be "you scratch my **** and i'll scratch yours"

[This message has been edited by Dave T-S (edited 16 September 2000).]

 

Can I just ask about this TV detector thing?

So the Detector vans cannot pick that you are using your TV?

I am not in any way qualified to talk about electronics, but I thought that ALL electrical equipment made a transmission of some-sort?

 

I believe that they could pick up that you are watching TV. Whether they still do, I dont know, but I cannot see any reasons why they stopped.

In my younger years I did a City and Guilds TV & Radio servicing course as a filler for my timetable. My tutor at the time was explaining some parts of a TV systems and how some of the side effects is that it transmits (albeight at negligable power) back up the ariel. He also said in parsing this is how using sensitive directed equipment TV detector vans work. I have utter respect for my previous tutor and cannot see any reason why he would have made this up or how he could be mislead on such a specific technical item.

Aside from broadcasting up the ariel I believe it is possible to also get something from the display. I saw a TV program on spying a few years back they could pickup some stuff from VDUs. Not so positive about this however.

bkar

 

Let me see if I can explain how TV systems work.

Its 12 years since I have worked down to component level on this type of kit so I am very rusty. I did spend 8 years with hands on design and diagnostics down to the level of calculating coil, capacitor, resistor, transistor etc specs so I did have a thorough knowledge of the subject.

The aerial on your TV feeds into a high gain amplifier that is very low power and very susceptible to external interference. Take the cover off your TV and you will see the aerial feeds into a fully shielded metal box that encapsulates the first stage amplifier. There is no output of any power coming from the input side of this amplifier that would be able to transmit back up the aerial. If that were the case the radio wave signal that the amplifier is receiving would be swamped by its own output and would not be able to work. This type of feedback is what electronic engineers spend a large amount of their effort in the design stage eliminating.

The next stages in the TV signal path (I am being very simplistic here) demodulates the signal into its various components to give a sound signal for the audio amps to amplify to drive the speakers. The picture signal is then demodulated into its 3 main components for red, green and blue signals. On top of this there is a mechanism that uses a crystal that ensures that half the video signal is output on a different phase to the other half so as to stop any chance of the colour definition being lost. This is partly where the name PAL comes from, Phase Alternating Line.

At this stage the signal levels are still in the low voltage range. Without boring you to death on this the colour signals (again being very simplistic) are fed to the various CRT electrodes to modulate the electron stream. Whilst these signals are driving the 3 colour electrodes there are some small coils around the neck of the CRT that are moving these 3 beams up and down and side to side. The picture is built up by scanning left to right working its way down the screen in lines at a time every 2 available lines, once the bottom of the screen is reached it starts again from the top filling in the middle lines on its way down. This is where PAL gets its Alternating Line bit.

The thing that is attracting the electrons to flow from the far end of the CRT is the very high voltage at the front of the TV tube, this voltage varies depending on the size of the CRT but 25,000 Volts is a typical value. An oscillator and HT coil generates this.

If there is going to be any form of signal output from a Modern TV then this is where it will come from and it will simply be a HT coil Hum. There is absolutely no way that this hum can be interpreted as anything other than an interference signal. You cannot decipher any meaningful (i.e. what TV program) information from it.

Now have a think about this. What else in your home gives out this type of electrical emission? The PC Monitor you are sat in front of for starters. It is just a contributor to all the electrical noise that is around you that you have no idea is there.

There are also very strict laws in place to ensure that TV manufacturers do not sell equipment that emits any discernible form of electrical interference.

I am sorry if what I am telling you is destroying what you thought were facts but that is the reality of the situation. TV detector vans are a propaganda tool to keep you in fear of being caught. Why the hell they don’t just come out and say they have a database of non-payers, they know who you are and they are coming to get you is beyond me now. In the old days before computing was cheep these databases did not exist and so they had to rely on black magic to strike fear into you that they were out there searching for you.

Just think about it for a minute and you will realise what nonsense these detector vans are. Every house virtually in this country uses a TV, do they stop at every house and knock on the door and say “we have detected you are using a TV with our equipment, do you have a license?” Of course they don’t, they target people on their database that have no license and go and knock on their door with clipboard in hand.

 

Hi John,

Common sense dictates that the TV people only visit you if you dont have a TV licence. It would be madness and ineffective to do it any other way.

I am however still of thought that there is some form of unintentional transmition (not enough to effect the UKs transmittion laws) that can go back up the ariel. Unfortunantly it was 16 years ago since I did that course and I cant really remember why although the fact it did stuck in my mind. Saying that I cannot break any of your reasoning.

bkar

 

PS I grew up with electronics all around me. My dad was the senior trainer for one of the largest electrical retailers in the UK. He used to have to train all the engineers in how the new TV's and Vidoes etc worked and how to fault find them. I may have picked up the odd bit of info from him.

I used to see lots of experimental new equipment as my old man was given them to play with to see how maintainable they were in the field. An example that sticks in my mind is the first generation of philips CD video players, i was ripping one of those apart back in 1981 i think.

I also studied electronics at college for 3 years full time and in my second job after college i used to calibrate and certify the electronic test equipment used on nuclear power stations on the safety critical systems. They tend not to let a monkey do that sort of job. LOL

 

PS. Forgot to say that when the TV guys came round my house I hadnt got the TV on. This further gives credence to the fact that they use their database to check these things - which I wasnt disputing and is only common sense.

I still have an open mind of the Van.

For your info ive got C&G years 1 & 2 in TV and Radio servicing, A/O electronics and A level electronics. (Not that any of that can help me now coz I cant remember any of it )

(note the C&G is really useful because it means that unlike most of you people I am actually QUALIFIED to wire a plug. Its true !! I am - now where does the brown wire go ....)

bkar

 

Well i am QUALIFIED to wire a plug on the top of a nuclear reactor (and i have done so ) LOL

Shall we get our cerificates out? Ive got one for saving a brick from the deap end too. LOL

PS. Petrol is overtaxed in the UK! LOL



[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 16 September 2000).]

 

**** I didnt get the certificate for getting the brick. Ok you win. You are superior

bkar

 

hurah!!!!!!!!!!

ROFLMAO

 

Lets see if I can get this train on the tracks again

I recently joined in this pre-paid gas thing called priceline.com. How it works is that you make a bid for gas from a list of stations in yourt area. If they accept your bid, you can pre-pay for an alotment of up to 50 gallons. My usual station charges $1.75 for the premium, and 1.69 on super-tuesdays. Well I placed my bid of $1.50, and low and behold it was accepted! I get my gas card in the mail a couple of days later, activate it and test it out. Pull up to the station on the list, swipe the card and put in my pin number and out come the gas......Merlin would be proud. i look up at the price board, and their price for premium is $1.89. I just put in 5 gallons as a test and look at the receipt. It listed the price as $1.89, but also listed the customer as priceline, so I saved 39 cents per gallon at this station, and 20 cents overall!

Is there such a thing in the UK? If it were to start, do you think it would work? With the rampent gas prices across the pond, I would think it would be a runaway success.

Lovejoy

 

Dave T-S,

(after weekend) I now consider myself enlightened :-)

Geezer,

For me, it's all about cause and effect. the cause of the Poll Tax riots was that is was perceived as being unfair to the vast majority of the people. the effect [of the riots] was that it was [eventually] scrapped.

People should always have the right to protest peacefully. Perhaps even cause a nuisance of themselves, as long as they act lawfully.

Craig.

 

Mr Lovejoy,

Nice idea, but part of our current grief stems from the petrol producers not being able to increase their profit margins, so I can't see them dashing to reduce the price voluntarily.

On the political debate, have any of you baggy trousered philanderers replied to Diablo's forum "should there be politics on the BBS?" in non-scooby related, where it belongs?

 

No Mr., just Lovejoy

Lovejoy

 

John,

domestic televisions do produce RF emissions, the way to detect a TV in use and the channel being watched is to look at the IF output of the super heterodyne detector. This remains at a constant point in the RF spectrum regardless of the channel being watched, making super high gain detection equipment much easier to design and manufacture. It also make the demodulation of the luminance / chrominance components much easier, since the demod circuitry does not need to be tune-able (that's what the superhet's there for).

It would be possible to use a super high gain aerial (such as a parabolic unit) to detect the miniscule "leakage" from the superhet to detect the location of receiving equipment within a building.... demodulating the IF would produce a picture (and sound) and hence it would be possible to determine the channel being watched.

Whether the TV Licensing authority ever used this method of detection is open to question; it is technically possible, but is it worth the effort when you can just knock on the door? :-) Obviously for industrial espionage / national security it WOULD be worth it, but for finding someone who hasn't paid a hundred quid for a TV license? Hmmmm.... :-)

Sorry for the OT content,

Pat.

 

Hi Pat,

I do like that post, you working for MI5 or MI6 these days

Your talking unbelievably small emissions there, I cant for the life of me believe they would go to the lengths required to make that kit for TV license enforcement.

There is certainly no way that kit was around when TV detector vans were first used, it makes absolutely no sense at all to spend the money required to equip a van with that level of detection when they have all the info they need on a database.

Right, I am off to B&Q to buy some lead to line my living room, not having them probing my humble abode. LOL

 

Pat,

Thanks god for your post, you have jogged my memory on a bunch of stuff, I couldnt remember enough about the terminology to say anything sensible and argue with the dread JohnF. . I couldnt remember specifically what the fixed frequency amplifier was called but I could remember that it was the one that was leaking.

I think that it could have been done at least 16 years ago. I dont think there is anything special about recieving small signals then or the use of directional aeriels.

It is also feasible that the TV License guys could use this for proof if it came to a "You are using a TV without license" with a response of "Oh no I'm not" situation.

Its possible that having a good signal booster may twart this approach,

bkar

 

Lovejoy, they seem more interested in television. I dunno the youth of today!

Wait a minute , you're from the telly.....

 

hey bkar, what you mean by "dread JohnF"??

I am a nice guy and i sure get you thinking.

 

oh yeah, oops, I forgot.

bkar