Perhaps someone can answer this one please...Whats the black rag thing about?Hanging off the back bumper or tow hitch of Asians peoples cars?What does that signify?
Seen it about 2 dozen times now..anyone care to expand??

 

Doesn't that usually mean some kind of homosexual code? Means they are into heavy S&M

http://alt.xmission.com/~trevin/hanky.html

(That was googled btw)

 

i know those would be picked up, but it was the point i was going for,

why is it certian faiths seem predisposed to wiping out others..

the question you could ask is if these british muslims felt that strongly, why not just go to another country.. likewise the ones on the news today.... if they dont like it ............leave.

if they cant be adult enough to accept differing views and beliefs, then there is somthing very wrong.

pc and human rights have a very big hand in some of the issues of today..

and its not the right hand...

M

 

Then you and I are from the same school of thought.

 

Nah...dont think so..looking for the correct answer....

 

Isn't it supposed to dissipate the static from all those additional passengers on board?!

 

your not on this planet!!

ask the kurds who he wiped out with his non weapons of mass destruction,,

you really do need to to remember your history....

if saddam had complied with the un inspectors when asked, and allowed them free reign when they went in and was as innocent as you bel;ieve, then he would have had nothing to hide or fear..

instead he chose to dick the inspectors around, not allow them access to records or places .. draw your own conclusions....

heres a bloke who kills people for being the wrong race.. has used and has threatened to use wmd.. what would you do, pat him on the back and tell him not to be naughty, and not to worry were going to leave him in peace...

ask any serving soldier what the rules of engagement are. if a hostile points a gun at you, you dont ask him if hese going to shoot or is it real....

imagine the hand wringing and wailing if saddam had wmd and had used them..

ok so billy is a bit gullable, and dubia is a gung ho fella, prehaps there timing was wrong.. if they had got it right the first time, we wouldnt have had a re run..


M

 

Alan, you have hit the nail on the head there; especially if you look at this from the eyes of Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghans, the colonies and the empire. All these areas are/were in effect under attack, as you put it, and some will and did stand up and fight.

How they stand up and fight is another thing. Our expectation is that the fight will somehow be clean and subject to some rules of engagement that we understand and can deal with. Recent events all over the world show this to be untrue.

We need to unravel the root causes of disaffection to stand a chance of making inroads into any of the conflict situations we are faced with either here or abroad.

I'm struggling to get my head round the view (heard this off someone I know the other day) that, for example, the Iraqis should be grateful the West is in their country, liberating them.

I don't recall them asking the West to liberate them, and by any stretch of the imagination, Iraqis, for example, are much worse off now than before the West invaded.

This kind of situation breeds disaffection, causes some to stand up and fight, just as you alluded to. We need to break that cycle, fast, and sending people of colour or of visibly different ethnicity " back to where they came from" isn't going to solve the issues. I can't, for example, see how sending the Irish back home at the height of their bombing campaigns in the UK would have solved anything. To keep a sense of perspective let's not forget that they (the IRA) killed/wounded hundreds over here.

Repatriation is all about tackling the symptoms, not the root causes, and the debate on here seems to be centred on the symptoms. Not good.

 

A very reasoned thing to say Alan - although I will not get into defining English culture since I interpret it by now more strongly as a set of rapidly eroding moral and family values. The problem is that until fairly recently blatantly racist behaviour was acceptable by us indigenous whiteys, and a lot of damage was done - we even had racist TV programmes branded as light entertainment. Its no wonder people were therefore sticking to their own rather than alinging with the Brits who maybe they didnt feel were that positive towards them. This has been mentioned here by a few people but it doesnt even register with many here. There is cause and effect, but I'm not sure where you start; I was naively hoping things were getting better

It is also somewhat ironic that 'integration' and respect for indigenous culture is seemed so desirable when it is the Brits that are the worlds worse for this. Even this week on TV one ignorantly mentioned disgust at the locals' poor level of English when buying a home abroad

As someone says, in between the stupidly excessive swearing and hyperbole Moses does make some valid points, and he also seems to feel quite Scots. Ignore, isolate and attack him further and guess what 'gang' he'll identify more with...

D

 

You're the one not on this planet and you're the one who needs to read your history. Why don't you research who it was who equipped Saddam with all the weapons you boast about below? (Answer in a later post, but lets get you using your brain cells).

Also, why don't you go out and find out how many Iraqi's have been killed by Western weapons of mass destruction? And no, we are not talking about bullets from a gun.

Finally, to really stretch your brain, do you think Saddam had weapons of mass destruction that were a threat to us? Think hard and don't explode.

 

you really are a **** arnt you... to think my gradfather died so you could use your saddam coudnt get us crap...

please define wmd ... it isnt a scud missile, its a dirty nuke or a suitcase full of anthrax... both of which if used in a large capital city!!!!!! would have caused mayhem..


if you think saddam is such an innocent fella

f*ck off out there and see how you like it


M

 

Less than by Saddams WOMD by far.

 

Those who say the supposed ill-treatment of muslims or meddling in outside countries causes the trouble with radical islam are just plain wrong.

Those involved with terrorism would be killing and maiming whatever the circumstances – they just try and find justification for their acts – of course there is no justification for suicide bombing, these people aren’t martyrs they’re cowards – doesn’t matter if they bomb Israel, The UK or Iraq.

The only time this kind of terrorism will end is when the muslim community (here) makes it unacceptable – no excuses, no attempts to justify it, no trips to Pakistan for terrorist training (or anywhere else) just an end to the preaching of hate etc
Because if they don’t they may as well be supporting terrorists and that really would put muslims at odds with the values and way of life in the west and most of the people who live there.

Loss of Britishness??? – If you’re British you wouldn’t take part or support such acts – anywhere, so I guess you can be born here but not be British…..

 

Exactly what Asif feels. Which is a shame.

Are we Brits any worse than the French, German, Americans?

Mixing Western Cultures is going to be a lot easier as many touch points exist in clothing, Music, food etc.. But I stand by the point that Asian & Western cultures are too polar to mix properly..

And as for standing and fighting, we have no state or geographical group to fight against. Which makes this affair harder to overcome. The fight I was talking about is the low level reaction against a group of people who are closest to the groups carrying out these attacks. This is why I agree that the Asian/Islamic/Muslim (whatever) community must root this out at source. The chickens have come home to roost. Radical preaching has been allowed and tolerated (just) as an arm of the faith & culture. It's been bordering on the dangerous for quite some time, and last week was a wake up call not just for the Islamic community, but for the country too. We have been too PC/Soft/Moderate/democratic, whatever you wish to call it and allowed this thing to happen under our noses and in the open..

If we stood against it, we'd be branded racist.. This goes beyond racism and it now means that this sort of thing has to be stopped now. Properly. No excuses, no half measures.. Radical preachings that call for violence (regardless if they are Islamic or the BNP) should be arrestable offences.

Time to stop ***** footing around the edges.. There's too much at stake..

 

Never said it did.

I was talking from my own perspective and feeling a little sorry for myself perhaps.

Sometimes sad times like these can do that.

Asif

 

Hi Alan,

You've written a couple of posts and I will try to deal with them all, but time is pressing at the moment (bedtime!)

I used the words British and English separately and deliberately so. I am British, Asian, of Pakistani descent, and proud of all those things. My Passport denotes that I am British and no one can take that away from me. My Great Grandfather fought in WWI, in the BRITISH ARMY and I am very proud of that fact as I am sure he was too. I have every right to be here and call myself British and I do.

Being English goes a little deeper though imo, as it implies all sorts of cultural things that I do not have. However I am very accepting of English Culture, in my view more accepting of it than it is of me.

In one of my earlier posts, I said that some of my English friends almost insisted that I was English and for the reasons outlined previously I refuse to accept that. That is not a slur on the English or English culture, simply that I am not English, I can't change that. I honestly believe that having a brown skin makes you non English.

To go further, I am happy mixing the two main cultual influences on my upbringing, being born and bred in the UK and being of Pakistani descent. I, on rare occasions and where appropriate wear pakistani clothes, but most of the time you will find me in British but mainly American clothes.

I love my curries, was brought up on them, but I love my Cornish Pasties, steak and chips, and fish and chips also. When I need to, I will visit the mosque (on funerals of late) and I know how to do my prayers (again, brought up on it) but I am also happy with attending Church weddings and going to the Pub for a drink. I consider myself very typical.

I am well educated, work and pay my taxes, I am very law abiding and I believe give more to this society than I take.

I totally agree that there can be issues around identity, also mixing both cultures, which can cause difficulties sometimes. For the most part however, I am able, like most non white people here find a happy medium that keeps everyone happy, especially me.

I have written all of this because I didn't want you to think that I felt somehow disenfranchised or whatever. I am very happy living in the UK. It is because I am happy here that I feel dismayed when I see such open displays of ignorance and prejudice that are sometimes to be observed on SN.

All this at an already difficult time and mainly where the terrorist has succeeded if he has made ordinary people in the UK dislike and distrust each other. This is also at stake.

Asif

 

Not from the News coverage I saw. Almost to the extent where they deliberately tried to show as many coloured and Muslim faces as possible - in all quite a few.

Asif

 

Appreciate your comments and I agree the majority do not hold those views.

I can see why people feel bewildered at the changes in this country, but some of the changes taking place have far more impact than a few immigrants, IMO.

The influence of American culture in this country is huge but you have not acknowledged it.

The changes brought about by Maggie also had an incredible effect on this country. The shift from a manufacturing to a service based economy was a huge change and creation of corporate cultures and the pursuit of material wealth.

The changes to infrastructures like the railways and the health service have also contributed to the view that 'This country is changing for the worse'

These things have nothing to do with Immigrants but I honestly feel that it is easier to blame the immigrants than, say, Maggie.

Just my quick view on that.

Asif

 

You should not believe everything you are told/read.

Was that Germans or ***** btw?

 

 

Mart,

Look around mate and into history. The Muslim religon has been around for a long time and there is no history of the sorts of things we are seeing now.

What is happening in the Muslim World I ask you? Petty and power hungry dictators, exploiting their populations and being corrupt, lining their own pockets.

While at the same time claiming to be upholders of the faith etc.

There is no one person, unlike the Pope who is in charge of the show, I doubt if there ever will be.

The peoples of those countries, under guidance of their leaders feel it is ok to blame the West for everything, instead of themselves. They use the examples of Afghanistan and Iraq as proof of what the West intends to do to Muslims (there is a bodycount to back this up of course)

We are talking about extreme politicisation, its not really about race or religon, those are great to get people going.

And the West is up to its eyeballs in the whole mess, one minute friends, next, enemies, then friends etc, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi, etc

OBL is the best example of this. To try to look at the bombings dispassionately for a moment, they have got to be fall out from us being so involved, the result of fuel to the fire.

You made a comment about the right to live in peace, I agree, but I think that that ideal is a two way street.

Anyway...

Asif

 

What are you on about? Anthrax, Nukes? Do you paste The Sun Says columns in your scrap book??
Iraq had nothing to with terrorism and or Bin Laden.
The Kurds were attacked back during the Iran-Iraq war, over 15 years back. There was no humanitarian crisis in Iraq before this invasion except for the one the sanctions was creating. But we're slaughtering people in Iraq right now - that's okay though?
And like you give two f*cks about the Kurds and Iraqis anyway. I've seen your racist posts and dumb crap about nuking the Middle East.

As for this argument about English culture being destroyed by those from the subcontinent, I'd like to see some evidence. Our culture here has been swamped by America more than anything else and I haven't seen many Americans emigrating to these shores.

My great grandfather also fought for the British Army and I've got the medals if you want to see them! If somebody has a problem with my colour or that I have to answer for the actions of others then they can f*ck off back to where they came from.

 

You cleverly (in a thick way) avoided my original questions.

When has Saddam been a threat to us?

I say we stay out of the middle east and look to solving our problems at home. I guess you're hell-bent on poking your nose into affairs outside of our country. On that note, you ought to be deported along with these terrorists.

 

It interesting to see how all of a sudden the racism that that has been simmering under the surface has come to the for front now people have an excuse. As someone who is non religious but was born a Muslim it seems amazing to me that people have such a misguided view of Islam in England. My family live in a totallly different world to the closed off segragated commutities people seem to imagine, No women in my family wear hijabs they dress in western clothes, have western as well as Muslim friends do business with western people, speak english with no comedy pakistani accent, support the English football team and generally live the same life style as any English person. The Agakahn who is head of 20 million muslims world wide has been telling his followers to adapt to whatever culture they have chosen to live in for 20 years and they have done exactly that for 20 years but to many people a paki is a paki and responsable for terrorism. It might come as a surprise to some but the majority of Muslim and Asian people have come to England adapted to English culture started business' and done very well for themselves. As a side note the women in my family are not opressed stay at home wives they work have a life do as they please and have loving equal marriges.

 

There is no reason why Muslims in Britain shoul be expected to give up their own culture and their religious ideals in order to prove that they have integrated into our society. Neither should they be expected to play cricket etc. to prove it unless they genuinely enjoy the game. It is just not necessary.

The vast majority just get on with their own lives, contribute to the economy amd don't bother anyone else.

The problems stem from where Asif has said, that is to say evil men who are ambitious for their own selfish reasons and use religion to get their own way at the expense of both Muslims and non believers. Al Quaeda is a prime example of this. We also have the same type of selfish people running western leaderships.

The real battle is with these organisations and we should combine and concentrate on eliminating their power bases. " Cut off the head of the snake" as someone said. All this can be achieved purely by reaching an understanding without any necessity for PC behaviour which is counter productive as we all know.

Racism is evil and unecessary and I am sorry to see some of the examples which have surfaced in this thread.

KiwiGTI,

You should be very careful before you start quoting **** ideals to us!

Les

 

So what was your point - you appeared to be saying "If you don't like our culture then **** off home". The only problem being that immigrants are not invited here because we want to experience their culture - they're invited here so we can get them to do the **** jobs nobody else wants to do !

Why the **** should they abolish their culture in order to get ****faced at the weekend and pick fights with someone because they were looking at them "wrong" or dump their wife and kids cos they got a better offer from the office bike.

If you don't like Immigration then vote Tory - don't take it out on the poor ******* that turn up here expecting to find multi-cultural harmony and get bigotted ********* welcoming them to their new lives !

 

The IRA were not fighting in the name of catholicism though, it was to determine whether NI was part of the UK or separate.

 

Academic question and slightly off-topic, but did the IRA want NI to be a part of the UK or not? What were the benefits eitherway?

 

Ive been following this thread, and I have to say that while I find Moses's comments offensive, you have taken the throne of the most ignorant, poorly educated, and misinformed person here.


You are a terrorists wet dream. You have bought into their plan beautifully.

There was absolutely NO strategic benefit of attacking London last week
(disrupting the G8 was pathetic especially as Al Qaeeda hae claimed to stand up for the "poor of the world" ).....

No ,the ONLY thing they want is to create hatred. They would love

1)more military action from the US and UK , because bombing more people will create lots of new lovely suicide bombers,

2)division and hatred between communities will make more radical muslims defensive, and turn to them for protection of some form.

If Al qaeeda loved other muslims so much why would they want to blow up 25 musim kids in iraq the other day.???
Why would they want to make the lives of muslims in this country hell?

 

Leslie - No one's saying that any foreign national living here has to give up their way of life. Asif seems perfectly integrated to me and goes about his business in quiet peace and harmony.. Just like you and me. His elequent replies tell us a lot about how fully integrated, British born Muslims are feeling right now.

Integration goes both ways.. There are sections of all communities that simply cannot get along.. but these people are at the extremes and are a minority, the rest do their best.

But the the cultutral differences between the East & West are so wide and are being forced upon us in such a way that reaction against integration is natural.. The French banned forms of Islamic national dress.. the Dutch are up in arms about the recent murder of the TV Director in the name of Islam.. This is not just a British issue..

The Muslim community, as a minority, are having an innordinate amount of pressure placed upon them by their supposed 'brothers'. It's obvious their abhorrent behaviour is tarring the whole culture and it is therefore down to that community, with our help, to help them out of denial and into accepting that people in their midst and acting on their behalf (which we agree actually isn't) need to be rooted out and dealt with..