Loss of British National Identity. Responsible for attacks?
14 July 2005, 11:39 AM
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Loss of British National Identity. Responsible for attacks?
Boris Johnson thinks so...
I have already had enough about how perfectly normal these young men were, and what charming fellows they were, and how there was nothing they loved more than serving in dad's chip shop or helping an old lady across the street or a good game of cricket in the park.
"All he wanted to do was have a laugh," said one of the neighbours last night, about one of the sick quartet responsible for killing themselves and at least 52 others in London. "He was sound as a pound." Yeah, right. If these four young men were perfectly normal Yorkshiremen, then what the hell is happening to this country? Of all the shattering revelations of the past few days, the worst has been that these suicide bombers were British.
They were our very own. They were as British as a wet bank holiday. They were as British as Tizer, and queues and Y-fronts and the Changing of the Guard, and the chips that made them what they were. They were born in British maternity wards, and attended by every comfort that the state could give.
They went to British primary schools and learnt about Britain from British teachers, and when they murdered so many of their fellow Britons it was the British emergency services who tried to save what lives they could.
That shocking fact of their Britishness tells us something frightening about them and about us, because, as suicide bombers go, they are unusual. When the Palestinian bombers attack Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, they usually come from miserable lives in Nablus or Hebron. When the 19 suicide bombers destroyed the Twin Towers they originated, without exception, from the Arab world, mainly Saudi Arabia.
We seem to have pulled off the rare feat of breeding suicide bombers determined to attack the very society that incubated them; and the question is why. Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own? Last summer we had a magnificent holiday driving around America, and for a cynical Brit it was astonishing to see the way the Americans fly that flag of theirs.
On every porch, on every flagpole, on every bumper: there were the stars and stripes, unabashed, exuberant, proud. Contrast our treatment of the Union Flag, which is endlessly being cited in racial harassment cases, on the ground that it is provocative merely - for instance - to stick it on your locker. Remember Bob Ayling, the Labour-supporting businessman who succeeded the late, great Lord King at British Airways, and decided that the Union Flag was so too embarrassing that he stripped it from the tailfins of his planes.
The Americans would be mystified by our approach to a national symbol. For them the flag is a vital agent of integration, a way of asserting that, in that vast immigrant country, each person is not only American but equally American, and has an equal stake in society. That is why American children still begin their day at school by pledging allegiance to the flag, and that is why the Americans show a patriotism and a simple enthusiasm for their own country that our jaded British sensibilities find childish.
Well, if you consider what is taught in British schools - and when you think that one of the killers was actually a primary school teacher - it is hard to deny that in their assessment of what a nation needs to stick together, the Americans are right, and we are tragically wrong. It is not just that most British children no longer know much about British history (13 per cent of 16- to 24-year- olds think the Armada was defeated by Hornblower, and six per cent ascribe the great naval victory to Gandalf).
The disaster is that we no longer make any real demands of loyalty upon those who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. There are many culprits, and foremost among them is Enoch Powell. As Bill Deedes has pointed out over the years, the problem was not so much his catastrophic 1968 tirade against immigration, but the way he made it impossible for any serious politician to discuss the consequences of immigration, and how a multiracial society ought to work.
In the wake of Powell's racist foray, no one had the guts to talk about Britishness, or whether it was a good thing to insist - as the Americans do so successfully - on the basic loyalty of immigrants to the country of immigration.
So we have drifted on over the intervening decades, and created a multi-cultural society that has many beauties and attractions, but in which too many Britons have absolutely no sense of allegiance to this country or its institutions. It is a cultural calamity that will take decades to reverse, and we must begin now with what I call in this morning's Spectator the re-Britannification of Britain.
That means insisting, in a way that is cheery and polite, on certain values that we identify as British. If that means the end of spouting hate in mosques, and treating women as second-class citizens, then so be it. We need to acculturate the second-generation Muslim communities to our way of life, and end the obvious alienation that they feel.
That means the imams will have to change their tune, and it is no use the Muslim Council of Great Britain endlessly saying that "the problem is not Islam", when it is blindingly obvious that in far too many mosques you can find sermons of hate, and literature glorifying 9/11 and vilifying Jews.
We have reached a turning-point in the relations between the Muslim community and the rest of us, and it is time for the moderates to show real leadership. That is why I want to end with the words of my Labour colleague Shahid Malik, MP for Dewsbury, who said yesterday: "The challenge is straightforward - that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated, whether they be on the streets, in the schools, in the youth clubs, in the mosque, in a corner, in a house.
We need to go beyond condemning. We need to confront." Well said, Shahid; and it is time for the imams to follow.
I have already had enough about how perfectly normal these young men were, and what charming fellows they were, and how there was nothing they loved more than serving in dad's chip shop or helping an old lady across the street or a good game of cricket in the park.
"All he wanted to do was have a laugh," said one of the neighbours last night, about one of the sick quartet responsible for killing themselves and at least 52 others in London. "He was sound as a pound." Yeah, right. If these four young men were perfectly normal Yorkshiremen, then what the hell is happening to this country? Of all the shattering revelations of the past few days, the worst has been that these suicide bombers were British.
They were our very own. They were as British as a wet bank holiday. They were as British as Tizer, and queues and Y-fronts and the Changing of the Guard, and the chips that made them what they were. They were born in British maternity wards, and attended by every comfort that the state could give.
They went to British primary schools and learnt about Britain from British teachers, and when they murdered so many of their fellow Britons it was the British emergency services who tried to save what lives they could.
That shocking fact of their Britishness tells us something frightening about them and about us, because, as suicide bombers go, they are unusual. When the Palestinian bombers attack Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, they usually come from miserable lives in Nablus or Hebron. When the 19 suicide bombers destroyed the Twin Towers they originated, without exception, from the Arab world, mainly Saudi Arabia.
We seem to have pulled off the rare feat of breeding suicide bombers determined to attack the very society that incubated them; and the question is why. Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own? Last summer we had a magnificent holiday driving around America, and for a cynical Brit it was astonishing to see the way the Americans fly that flag of theirs.
On every porch, on every flagpole, on every bumper: there were the stars and stripes, unabashed, exuberant, proud. Contrast our treatment of the Union Flag, which is endlessly being cited in racial harassment cases, on the ground that it is provocative merely - for instance - to stick it on your locker. Remember Bob Ayling, the Labour-supporting businessman who succeeded the late, great Lord King at British Airways, and decided that the Union Flag was so too embarrassing that he stripped it from the tailfins of his planes.
The Americans would be mystified by our approach to a national symbol. For them the flag is a vital agent of integration, a way of asserting that, in that vast immigrant country, each person is not only American but equally American, and has an equal stake in society. That is why American children still begin their day at school by pledging allegiance to the flag, and that is why the Americans show a patriotism and a simple enthusiasm for their own country that our jaded British sensibilities find childish.
Well, if you consider what is taught in British schools - and when you think that one of the killers was actually a primary school teacher - it is hard to deny that in their assessment of what a nation needs to stick together, the Americans are right, and we are tragically wrong. It is not just that most British children no longer know much about British history (13 per cent of 16- to 24-year- olds think the Armada was defeated by Hornblower, and six per cent ascribe the great naval victory to Gandalf).
The disaster is that we no longer make any real demands of loyalty upon those who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. There are many culprits, and foremost among them is Enoch Powell. As Bill Deedes has pointed out over the years, the problem was not so much his catastrophic 1968 tirade against immigration, but the way he made it impossible for any serious politician to discuss the consequences of immigration, and how a multiracial society ought to work.
In the wake of Powell's racist foray, no one had the guts to talk about Britishness, or whether it was a good thing to insist - as the Americans do so successfully - on the basic loyalty of immigrants to the country of immigration.
So we have drifted on over the intervening decades, and created a multi-cultural society that has many beauties and attractions, but in which too many Britons have absolutely no sense of allegiance to this country or its institutions. It is a cultural calamity that will take decades to reverse, and we must begin now with what I call in this morning's Spectator the re-Britannification of Britain.
That means insisting, in a way that is cheery and polite, on certain values that we identify as British. If that means the end of spouting hate in mosques, and treating women as second-class citizens, then so be it. We need to acculturate the second-generation Muslim communities to our way of life, and end the obvious alienation that they feel.
That means the imams will have to change their tune, and it is no use the Muslim Council of Great Britain endlessly saying that "the problem is not Islam", when it is blindingly obvious that in far too many mosques you can find sermons of hate, and literature glorifying 9/11 and vilifying Jews.
We have reached a turning-point in the relations between the Muslim community and the rest of us, and it is time for the moderates to show real leadership. That is why I want to end with the words of my Labour colleague Shahid Malik, MP for Dewsbury, who said yesterday: "The challenge is straightforward - that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated, whether they be on the streets, in the schools, in the youth clubs, in the mosque, in a corner, in a house.
We need to go beyond condemning. We need to confront." Well said, Shahid; and it is time for the imams to follow.
14 July 2005, 11:48 AM
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Was that a Pig just flew past my window.
Britain is Multi-Cultural. Blair's Alliance with Bush has alienated one (at least) of those Cultures.
Most Moderate Muslims are V Angry with Blair's stance - The young ones are willing to do something about it!
Britain is Multi-Cultural. Blair's Alliance with Bush has alienated one (at least) of those Cultures.
Most Moderate Muslims are V Angry with Blair's stance - The young ones are willing to do something about it!
14 July 2005, 11:50 AM
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Well said Boris. No doubt the Politically Correct will be lining up to give him a kicking for it though.
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
Last edited by unclebuck; 14 July 2005 at 12:08 PM.
14 July 2005, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jasey
Britain is Multi-Cultural. Blair's Alliance with Bush has alienated one (at least) of those Cultures.
Accidental segregation is rife all over the country and none of these societies communicate with each other for fear of being misunderstood, or ignorance.
Last edited by angrynorth; 14 July 2005 at 12:10 PM.
14 July 2005, 12:23 PM
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Enoch Powell. As Bill Deedes has pointed out over the years, the problem was not so much his catastrophic 1968 tirade against immigration
I've overheard SO many people say that in the last few days...........
You walk into ANY pub and ask who would like blacks, indians, arabs - whatever - to all **** off back to where they came from (or parents came from) you would find a VERY large majority in agreement.
So how was Enoch Powell wrong? When most reckon he was bang on right.....
Not saying this is my point of view, but its a very prevalent one
14 July 2005, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Hu
To really throw a low punch here - if the ****ers weren't here it would'nt have happened....... hard to argue against that one.
I've overheard SO many people say that in the last few days...........
You walk into ANY pub and ask who would like blacks, indians, arabs - whatever - to all **** off back to where they came from (or parents came from) you would find a VERY large majority in agreement.
So how was Enoch Powell wrong? When most reckon he was bang on right.....
Not saying this is my point of view, but its a very prevalent one
I've overheard SO many people say that in the last few days...........
You walk into ANY pub and ask who would like blacks, indians, arabs - whatever - to all **** off back to where they came from (or parents came from) you would find a VERY large majority in agreement.
So how was Enoch Powell wrong? When most reckon he was bang on right.....
Not saying this is my point of view, but its a very prevalent one
I'd hate to see everyone sent home, part of our national identity is acceptance and tolerance of others. Saying "send em all back" is vile.
14 July 2005, 12:30 PM
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Nothing wrong in loving your country but America's version is to the point of turning people into sheep. Politicians cleverly use that patriotism into every decision someone makes and rationality goes out of the window. If anyone disagrees with their leader then their patriotism is questioned.
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14 July 2005, 12:35 PM
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It's also ridiculous to suggest people from any other country don't have any sense of right and wrong. My dads been making comments about 'foreigners' yet I had to point out he was born in a communist country and defected here from the former Czechoslovakia in the height of the cold war. He was welcomed with open arms back then, but maybe the fact he's white made people feel more comfortable.
The sad thing is people are labelling everyone with a different colour as a possible problem rather than realising it's a small minority of extremists that need to be dealt with.
The sad thing is people are labelling everyone with a different colour as a possible problem rather than realising it's a small minority of extremists that need to be dealt with.
14 July 2005, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
Well said Boris. No doubt the Politically Correct will be lining up to give him a kicking for it though.
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
The point he's making is that everyone in this country needs to unite behind the country which in the case of the Americans is their flag and their beliefs - there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
With my English hat on I'm as bad as anyone given that I don't know any blacks, Muslims or even Jews. Have I failed to integrate? Possibly but as this area is predominantly white its difficult.
Originally Posted by Dr Hu
To really throw a low punch here - if the ****ers weren't here it would'nt have happened....... hard to argue against that one.
I've overheard SO many people say that in the last few days...........
You walk into ANY pub and ask who would like blacks, indians, arabs - whatever - to all **** off back to where they came from (or parents came from) you would find a VERY large majority in agreement.
So how was Enoch Powell wrong? When most reckon he was bang on right.....
Not saying this is my point of view, but its a very prevalent one
I've overheard SO many people say that in the last few days...........
You walk into ANY pub and ask who would like blacks, indians, arabs - whatever - to all **** off back to where they came from (or parents came from) you would find a VERY large majority in agreement.
So how was Enoch Powell wrong? When most reckon he was bang on right.....
Not saying this is my point of view, but its a very prevalent one
14 July 2005, 12:51 PM
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I raised a similar thread many moons ago,
i believe the fundamental differance between the US and us, is no mater what religion, faith gender belief or standing, if you apply to become a US citizen, you swear alligience to the flag, regardless of what your own beliefs are. unlike here where we allow so much diversity, we loose all sense of identity.
Sure we should alow people to practice there own faiths, religions or beliefs
with one bloody big proviso....that they understand that they are british citizens, and they will uphold and respect the values that citizenship infers.
if they cant agree to that, then application declined.
what could be harder....
we have become the dumping ground of europe, because we allow anybody to come here and do as they please under the banner of human rights..
one small thing missing though..
where is our right to live in peace, not under fear from local loonys or sects that happen not to like us??
we need to stop this now or we will become britainistan with all the players having a ***** waving contest at our expense
Mart
i believe the fundamental differance between the US and us, is no mater what religion, faith gender belief or standing, if you apply to become a US citizen, you swear alligience to the flag, regardless of what your own beliefs are. unlike here where we allow so much diversity, we loose all sense of identity.
Sure we should alow people to practice there own faiths, religions or beliefs
with one bloody big proviso....that they understand that they are british citizens, and they will uphold and respect the values that citizenship infers.
if they cant agree to that, then application declined.
what could be harder....
we have become the dumping ground of europe, because we allow anybody to come here and do as they please under the banner of human rights..
one small thing missing though..
where is our right to live in peace, not under fear from local loonys or sects that happen not to like us??
we need to stop this now or we will become britainistan with all the players having a ***** waving contest at our expense
Mart
14 July 2005, 12:56 PM
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where is our right to live in peace
If you want your white paradise go to Northern Ireland.
Last edited by gsm1; 14 July 2005 at 12:59 PM.
14 July 2005, 12:58 PM
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The British Muslims will have to sort out the problems with their youngsters who are having real trouble reconciling their "Britishness" with their "Islamicness".
They haven't got much time to do it either
.
They haven't got much time to do it either
.
14 July 2005, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jasey
The British Muslims will have to sort out the problems with their youngsters who are having real trouble reconciling their "Britishness" with their "Islamicness".
They haven't got much time to do it either.
They haven't got much time to do it either
.
14 July 2005, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
As has the white community with the muppets from the BNP before it all gets out of hand.
14 July 2005, 01:18 PM
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These attacks must stop and can be stopped.
What's responsible for the attacks is the decades of the west meddling in middle-easten policy.
Its a simple equation, take away the motivation for these terrorists and the terror attacks will stop.
It's pointless throwing billions on security devices because the terrorists will just find a way around them: it's pointless fighting the last battle.
I'm sorry but I have yet to see any action on behalf of the UK Government that will reduce the risk of such attacks let alone stop them.
What's responsible for the attacks is the decades of the west meddling in middle-easten policy.
Its a simple equation, take away the motivation for these terrorists and the terror attacks will stop.
It's pointless throwing billions on security devices because the terrorists will just find a way around them: it's pointless fighting the last battle.
I'm sorry but I have yet to see any action on behalf of the UK Government that will reduce the risk of such attacks let alone stop them.
14 July 2005, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CoobyS
Its a simple equation, take away the motivation for these terrorists and the terror attacks will stop.
Neither will happen. Extermination of Muslims is more likely than stopping the chase for Oil (Israel seem to be following this strategy just now) - We may need a slighly more complex solution
14 July 2005, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jasey
The British Muslims will have to sort out the problems with their youngsters who are having real trouble reconciling their "Britishness" with their "Islamicness"..
Originally Posted by Flatcapdriver
As has the white community with the muppets from the BNP before it all gets out of hand.
14 July 2005, 01:42 PM
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He seems to have overlooked the fact that the USof A still has its own source of nutters bred and grown on home land. Charles Manson, The Oklahoma Bomber, The people who trained the 9/11 pilots(ok they did it innocently but who was supposed to be watching?), The Waco wackos, and many more too numerous to mention here. I think we are overlooking the fact that religion is just a symptom/factor of what's going on right now, the basic root cause is some looney fanatic leading these people on.
I saw red yesterday when I read in the media about certain US folk taking a swipe at the Uk for "Letting these people operate on our soil (the UK's)". As if we willingly allow all this to happen ? How arrogant of them, how does that saying go? let he who is without sin , cast the first stone....
Yve
I saw red yesterday when I read in the media about certain US folk taking a swipe at the Uk for "Letting these people operate on our soil (the UK's)". As if we willingly allow all this to happen ? How arrogant of them, how does that saying go? let he who is without sin , cast the first stone....
Yve
14 July 2005, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CoobyS
These attacks must stop and can be stopped.
What's responsible for the attacks is the decades of the west meddling in middle-easten policy.
Its a simple equation, take away the motivation for these terrorists and the terror attacks will stop.
It's pointless throwing billions on security devices because the terrorists will just find a way around them: it's pointless fighting the last battle.
I'm sorry but I have yet to see any action on behalf of the UK Government that will reduce the risk of such attacks let alone stop them.
What's responsible for the attacks is the decades of the west meddling in middle-easten policy.
Its a simple equation, take away the motivation for these terrorists and the terror attacks will stop.
It's pointless throwing billions on security devices because the terrorists will just find a way around them: it's pointless fighting the last battle.
I'm sorry but I have yet to see any action on behalf of the UK Government that will reduce the risk of such attacks let alone stop them.
how silly of me. of course, it's all our fault.
14 July 2005, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jasey
Yeah - maybe we should get rid of all Muslims - That's simple too.
Neither will happen. Extermination of Muslims is more likely than stopping the chase for Oil (Israel seem to be following this strategy just now) - We may need a slighly more complex solution
Neither will happen. Extermination of Muslims is more likely than stopping the chase for Oil (Israel seem to be following this strategy just now) - We may need a slighly more complex solution
14 July 2005, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Apparition
He seems to have overlooked the fact that the USof A still has its own source of nutters bred and grown on home land. Charles Manson, The Oklahoma Bomber, The people who trained the 9/11 pilots(ok they did it innocently but who was supposed to be watching?), The Waco wackos, and many more too numerous to mention here. I think we are overlooking the fact that religion is just a symptom/factor of what's going on right now, the basic root cause is some looney fanatic leading these people on.
I saw red yesterday when I read in the media about certain US folk taking a swipe at the Uk for "Letting these people operate on our soil (the UK's)". As if we willingly allow all this to happen ? How arrogant of them, how does that saying go? let he who is without sin , cast the first stone....
Yve
I saw red yesterday when I read in the media about certain US folk taking a swipe at the Uk for "Letting these people operate on our soil (the UK's)". As if we willingly allow all this to happen ? How arrogant of them, how does that saying go? let he who is without sin , cast the first stone....
Yve
14 July 2005, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CoobyS
Illiterate 'black and white' view - are you canvassing for Nick Griffin?
14 July 2005, 02:16 PM
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The main problem from my experience is that muslim lads born in Britain dont consider themselves to be British when it comes to patriotism, maybe thats everyones fault to a point but thats how it is.
As i've said before I live in a town with a huge muslim population, I went to school and college with plenty of ethnic groups and have very good friends that are muslim, indian, seikh and more.
Now its definately NOTHING to do with colour and all about religion. My Indian and Seikh mates are British born and bred, and colour has never been an issue, they support England in cricket, football and war and if they need any state benefits they are still English.
All the muslims I knew at school/college were English when it came to benefits but as soon as there was a sporting event or war situation they were from Pakistan, so much so that during the first gulf war all the muslim lads came into college with their cars adorned with the iraqi flags and wearing those read and white tea towels - this was probably just to wind everyone up but it was frustrating and annoying when people were being killed in the war who we knew.
This is NOT my opinion of the muslim faith or ALL muslims, its just what i've experienced growing up in a heavily multi cultural town.
There is nothing wrong with people practising their religions and beliefs, but I think it is important to side with the country you were born in through the good times and bad.
I was in Spain when the attacks happened last week and I felt like I wanted to come back and help out, it honestly felt like when a mate is getting a kicking or something, I wanted to know who was picking on my country!! A strange feeling, but I was born here so its my place.
As i've said before I live in a town with a huge muslim population, I went to school and college with plenty of ethnic groups and have very good friends that are muslim, indian, seikh and more.
Now its definately NOTHING to do with colour and all about religion. My Indian and Seikh mates are British born and bred, and colour has never been an issue, they support England in cricket, football and war and if they need any state benefits they are still English.
All the muslims I knew at school/college were English when it came to benefits but as soon as there was a sporting event or war situation they were from Pakistan, so much so that during the first gulf war all the muslim lads came into college with their cars adorned with the iraqi flags and wearing those read and white tea towels - this was probably just to wind everyone up but it was frustrating and annoying when people were being killed in the war who we knew.
This is NOT my opinion of the muslim faith or ALL muslims, its just what i've experienced growing up in a heavily multi cultural town.
There is nothing wrong with people practising their religions and beliefs, but I think it is important to side with the country you were born in through the good times and bad.
I was in Spain when the attacks happened last week and I felt like I wanted to come back and help out, it honestly felt like when a mate is getting a kicking or something, I wanted to know who was picking on my country!! A strange feeling, but I was born here so its my place.
14 July 2005, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Holy Ghost
how silly of me. of course, it's all our fault.
But Tony Blair and George Bush certainly bear some responsbility.
Anyone stupid enough to buy the "war on Terror will make the world a safer place" bull**** should wake up and smell the coffee.
14 July 2005, 02:18 PM
#28
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Interesting that we are always being force fed statements like "Britains love their multi-cultural society" by the BBC etc, but now even a BBC article dares to question if its working:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4681615.stm
I have friends from almost all of the major religions, however it does have to be said Muslims are more at-odds with the Western lifestyle than others, and do appear to stubbornly demand changes to our society to better accomodate their needs/wants whereas others appear to try and fit their religion around our way of life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4681615.stm
I have friends from almost all of the major religions, however it does have to be said Muslims are more at-odds with the Western lifestyle than others, and do appear to stubbornly demand changes to our society to better accomodate their needs/wants whereas others appear to try and fit their religion around our way of life.
14 July 2005, 02:32 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by peterpeter
But Tony Blair and George Bush certainly bear some responsbility.
Anyone stupid enough to buy the "war on Terror will make the world a safer place" bull**** should wake up and smell the coffee.
Anyone stupid enough to buy the "war on Terror will make the world a safer place" bull**** should wake up and smell the coffee.
However, Al Qaeda or whatever you want to call it is essentially a protest against the West's standards and way of life and whilst I fully agree that the West has meddled in the Middle East (in recent times) the West (the US in particular) reacted to the attacks in New York with a purge against terrrorists.
As I keep saying, particularly with regard to the UK nobody should turn this into a 'them and us' situation as basically this is about sorting out the UK as a nation and dealing with British terrorists killing their countryman. Factionalising the whole issue won't solve anything.
Stop blaming and start talking.
14 July 2005, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Petem95
I have friends from almost all of the major religions, however it does have to be said Muslims are more at-odds with the Western lifestyle than others, and do appear to stubbornly demand changes to our society to better accomodate their needs/wants whereas others appear to try and fit their religion around our way of life.