Well said.

 

I think the bombers are thinking more along the lines of 'you kill one of ours and we'll kill one of yours'.

At best they are trying to achieve withdrawal of the West in the business of the Muslim word, especially the alliance and sponsorship of Israel.

 

You have hit the nail on the head there...the view of the Extremists is exactly that. You kill us (our people / Muslims) by bombing us from 30 000 feet and categorise it as 'collateral damage' and we will kill yours by the most effective means we know 'suicide bombers'. You may not like it or understand it but let’s not beat around the bush that is what it is.



George Bush did say that the war on terror is not isolated to any one particular country but is a global war. Well people welcome to this global war, the terrorists have the whole globe from which to recruit their 'holy soldiers' and the whole world is their battleground.



We joined the war on 'terror' now we will have to live with it. You can’t expect to join a global war and not expect the enemy to retaliate.... and its obvious to all, that Extremists do not distinguish between civilians and military personal...this is clear in Iraq and now in the UK.



As our own security officials here in the Uk said...it was just a matter of time until we were targeted.... it was inevitable.

 

Such a shame we cant just all get on without killing each other, and I mean the world, not this country

 

Alan C,

Not sure what you are trying to say in respect to the comments I made about integration. You actually appear to agree with what I said but accuse me of saying something different! I was basically saying that Muslims or any other religious group for that matter should all be able to co-exist without having to compromise their basic religious requirements.

I think the French were wrong to ban Islamic national dress and it is hardly surprising that the Dutch are furious about the murder of the TV director even if he did offend them. Hardly a matter of culture though!

Of course the individual cultures and also the way of thinking are hugely different but I dont believe it is necessary to suppress any of those cultures in order that we should all be able to get on with each other. It is always down to tolerance and acceptance of the fact that there are differences which should be respected on all sides.

I am sure that the Muslims are perfectly aware of the evil influences that you mention and don't think that they would be too keen on any sort of patronising attitude from us to help them as you say. It is up to them to sort that side of it out. it is good to see that the religious leaders are now openly decrying what happened last Thursday.

Any sign of someone about to commit another atrocity however, and it is obviously down to our security services to stamp it out robustly.

Les

 

another newby keyboard warrior...

why is it when people question another race,s views or actions , the extremist tend to kick off..

if you had decided to read the thread fully you would have gathered that whenever pro aguements for the other side are mentioned ... the posts go strangely silent...



heres a question then, which may push this debate further...



in some repects it could be argued that the faiths, (not beliefs) of the mulim community is an ideal, as it seems to have endured time very well, however could it also be argued that becuase of its rigidness, it has not stood the test of time well, i dont recall that oppression of the opposite sex or religous police are called for, is it this failure to move with the times is the issue. when these teachings were laid down, it was in a world / culture that is very different to today, and prhaps they are struggeling to balance what is tought with what we have in place today.

now prhaps i,m wrong, but "thou shalt not kill" holds good today as it did then... agreed its another faith, but they seem to have moved into the twentyth century quite well.

now i know the nit pickes are going to kick off, but before you do try and answer the question not create them.

no one has answered why british muslim youth seem so dissafected and against the culture they live in, what is it in there teachings that makes them accept what happens as an everyday occurance, and acceptable.

unfortuanatly we go forwards not back, do we want to go back to religous crusades, our faith is better than yours... dont these people ever learn ??

if billy binliner wants his religious ideal, leave him in afaghanistan or wherever he is and let him get on with it alone!!

leslie summed it up exactly ... you have to cut the head off the snake to stop it.... left saddam the first time ... we hould have done it then


M

 

Well the bombers may have been Muslims (and I use that word in its loosest possible sense in this context) but as for the Al Queda banner I'm not too sure, after reading this article by Greg Palast :

The tooth fairy, Santa Clause, WorldCom profits, the Easter Bunny, al-Qaeda.

The cruel, evil jerks who blew up the London subway last week, despite appropriating al-Qaeda's name for their website and T-shirts, have about as much to do with al-Qaeda as a Beatles tribute band has to do with the Fab Four.

For all the horror, hoopla and hair-pulling, this was no September 11. Timmy McVeigh slaughtered a heck of a lot more people in Oklahoma City with his cow-poop bomb.

I'm not belittling the heartbreaking hideousness of this crime, but let's get the facts straight. If al-Qaeda is the Panzer Division of terrorism, these London bombers were terrorism's Cub Scouts. We're talking a few pounds of nitro wired to a clock -- a design badly copied off the Internet.

A witness watched some Arabic-looking teenager nervously checking his bag on a bus which, London's un-hysterical police now believe, he accidentally triggered, blowing apart himself and a bunch of unlucky commuters.

Al-Qaeda this ain't. All the evidence is that this half-assed attack was the work of some poor young Muslim schmucks, possibly whipped into a frenzy by the mewling mullah of Finsbury Park, Omar Bakri Mohammed, a cleric who enjoyed the comfortable middle-class dullness of England during the week while on weekends preaching, "a 9/11, day after day after day" to punish his Western hosts.

It's not al-Qaeda, but for George and Tony, it's good enough. Blair's Foreign Secretary dramatically dashed out to tell us that the explosions had the "hallmarks of al-Qaeda." Our Commander in Chief, looking as commanding as possible (no reading of kiddie stories this time), could not have been more satisfied.

The "hallmarks of al-Qaeda"? That's not true and Blair knows it. And Bush knows it. And that's no little matter, my friends.

Because Blair and Bush are al-Qaeda junkies. They've sold us on everything from fingerprinting five-year olds to invading Baghdad to tolerating plummeting paychecks all on the slick line that we are under attack by a well-trained, well-armed, well-funded hidden army called al-Qaeda.

But our War President and War Prime Minister are having a little problem with their war on terror. The enemy's gone AWOL. Except when we go looking for trouble -- as in invading a Mesopotamian country -- trouble pretty much stopped looking for us.

Even September 11. Forgive me for pointing this out, but no matter how horrific, it was in the end the deed of a couple dozen fundamentalist fruitcakes with box-cutters hankering for a hot time with virgins in the next life who got "lucky."

Yes, unlike the London attack, the "luck" of the September 11 hijackers required the sick genius of monied operatives and a Washington administration that operated with eyes wide shut toward Saudi gangsterism.

But now al-Qaeda's luck's run out, not because Bush has us taking off our shoes in airports, but because, overwhelmingly, Muslims in this world really have no attraction to killing kids or commuters.

For Bush and Blair, organized terror's diminishing power was a political problem -- until last week, when the al-Queda addicts of the White House and Downing Street got a new terror fix. Even if it wasn't the real al-Qaeda, it was enough for them to mainline into the body politic a big, fat dose of fear.

Now, with world media all jumped up on its latest fear high, Bush and Blair can resume their sales pitch: more weaponry, less liberty.

FDR calmed a nation when he said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." But the Bush and Blair slogan is, "We have nothing to sell but fear itself."

 

do we get mad catholics blowing up buses?

mart

Sadly, Mart yes we did.

 

Mart360

You really are the clown of Scoobynet and if Osama Bin Laden was reading this thread he would be p1ssing himself laughing at the crap you are coming out with!!

Tell that to Bush and Blair, who don't let them (and many others) get on with it.

Saddam is only what he was due to the US during the ramp up of the Iran-Iraq war. Following Saddam's removal we are at a greater risk of terrorist threat than ever before. Where's the link?

What makes you think we should be immune from revenge attacks by nutters due to wars we have started? If it's not dillusioned extremists in Leeds then it would be a nutter from Pakistan blowing a plane full of Brits flying over India. If I smashed the windows of your car and stole the Momo gear **** becauseI wanted it on my scoob so I can sell it at a higher price, would you sit back and laugh or be after my *** for revenge? It's human nature bud.

 

i'm sorry but you appear to rather hard-of-thinking CoobyS. all well as aggressive, narrow-minded, mouthy and immature.

first you insist it's all down to western policy (which it isn't - it's a slightly more complex situation in case you hadn't noticed) and then you suggest i may be canvassing for the BNP because i sarcastically point out the absolute crass simplicity and stupidity of your initial comment. which was undeniably crass, simplistic and stupid - and has been said several other times on this board by other posters who are equally challenged when it comes to having a balanced view of the world.

i don't really want to mock the afflicted but if you want to have an adult debate then please do come properly equipped in future.

**

and mods - please keep a weather eye on posts and posters that fling BNP insults around ***** nilly like this clown here - cheers, HG.

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "faith" and "belief". In the Thesaurus they are synonyms. Both are essentially a view point that is held without logical underpinning or a "truth" without evidence if you prefer.

Islam like all religions is a faith or belief system, there is not and cannot be any evidence to support it, it is a non-falsifiable hypothesis. Islam as a faith has stood the test of time rather well, there are a great number of muslims out there and IIRC it is growing faster than most other religions.

The "culture" (or packaging of the beliefs) is a different although closely entwined issue. You can hold the beliefs and yet not adopt the culture / Islamic Law to the letter. It is the strict Islamic culture that is the opressor of women, not the belief in a given deity, if that were the case, the Christian culture would be the same as the Muslim as the Jew, as the deity is the same, only the prophets differ.

 

If you're not happy, report the post, it cuts down on the mods' workload that way!

 

thanks ol.

 

The appeasers and apologists still don’t get it, the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan do not make the slightest difference to these people, they’d still be planning terrorist attacks without the war on terror – they just want an end to the western way of life – that’s it.

They use religious extremism to recruit and “justify” their acts – those who don’t follow their ideology are seen as legitimate targets, it doesn’t matter if you’re in the UK or Iraq they just want to kill.

This isn’t the making of the bloated, corrupt west, it’s the making of some muslim nutcases – how many more bombs must there be before the extremists are tackled once and for all, wherever they may be????

 

mate i never do justify myself coz i know who i am and dont defend myself often coz i dont care what people think

so will just add something today, im sure u said it out of jest or maybe bitterness

i aint def a jew hater im a zionist and pro zionist born again christian hater

im def not an extremist according to your understanding, im an extremist in justice and both sides of the coin

im not anti american i luv the american people im anti american foreign policy and neocons and zionist pigs and bush and warmongers who make money out of war

 

people like u r unermensch, u use a **** quote sub human dont u, it shows your true colour, maybe people like u need to be cleansed from the face of the earth who use these **** words

 

If you think I insist it's down to Western policy, then where is your rebutal? Rather than giving half-arsed sarcastic comments and mocking the afflicted, why don't you have an adult debate or is that beyond you?

 

thanks bros may God bless u and your like

kiwi is a sub human as he calls others using **** quotes

and they call me an extremist, makes me laugh , they dont condemn the real extremists here the pigs

 

WTF? I said people who praised and wouldn't condemn the bombings were, you dumb f.u.c.k

 

No, you still don't get it. Why do you see Iraqis who never had any connection with terrorism ready to blow themselves up everyday? You create terrorists they are not a finite number that you go around and kill.

I suppose British Intelligence were lying when they said invading Iraq would increase the threat of terrorism - you know, the bit Blair tippexed out along with several other points with his dodgy synopsis.

 

ollyk i luv u bud

thanks a million

 

i have some sympathy with what you say bigjoe.

Islam clearly does have an extremist, idealogical and politicised lunatic fringe - that's a simple observation of the world around us and no sensible person would try and argue otherwise. most religions have developed them at some time or another, preying on the weak, exploiting the gullible and terrorising their respective - and other - societies.

the problem is - as it appears to me, a non-muslim outsider - that mainstream Islam seems to fear this fringe and doesn't yet know how to stamp it out. you only have to look at the disgraceful footage on the news this week of sir iqbal socranie - an honourable and decent man - being taunted and physically abused by this fringe of rabid thugs. awful to watch.

he looked and scared and angry: boy, what a job he has in front of him to rally his community and cut this cancer out. charity starts at home: the only way for this form of fundamentalist terrorism to be defeated in our country is to make it totally and utterly unacceptable within the very community in which it hides. the host must reject the parasite: proactively, aggressively, visibly.

it's a heck of a job and i wish him good luck: i trust he'll walk softly and carry a big stick.

 

In an article of Newsweek from about a month ago, one paragraph read:

"Occupying Iraq is a dangerous idea because 1) it will cost an enormous amount of blood and money, 2) it’s an open-ended commitment that has no defining moment of victory or scenario for departure and 3) zealous terrorists will thrive there under foreign occupation, then spread anti-American violence far and wide."

It's 3 that we are going to have to deal with in the years to come. Yes I know it refers to Americans, but UK being their biggest ally means we're also inscribed in on the hit-list.

Full article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8347538/site/newsweek/

 

My god is this thread still going!!

The current situation has nothing to do with racism. Genuine racists (that includes Muslim racists) may use it as a tool to spread their own beliefs and ideals but for normal people this has nothing to do with racism. When something like the London bombings happen the media wind the public up and Muslims become the enemy of the moment and vice versa in the Islamic world. 20 year ago every Irish man was a terrorist, 20 years before that every Russian was a KGB spy and 20 years previous again every German was a ****. Who will it be in another 20 years when we're great mates with muslims?? The Chinese??

 

This is an ill-thought and short-sighted view. Defeating terrorism in our country will not stop terrorism directed to our country, e.g. a plane-full of Brits flying over India being shot by Pakistani extremists.

Suicide bombings is flavour of the month because its easy and effective and quite unstoppable. If the suicide bombings are stopped then there will be another form of terrorist threat. Again, the root cause lies in the West meddling with the middle-east and Muslim countries and a real long-term solution will only come from addressing these causes.

 

moses, the very fact that you come out with crap like "cleansed from the earth" and whine on about how you hate "born again christians", and constantly use vitriol against your fellow "bros" if they dont agree with you means you are no better than any other biggot, racist whatever label you want to choose.

I dont hate anyone, any thing, religion, race whatever (except maybe celery ) whereas you seem to actively and passionately have hatred on certain subjects. Where does that hate come from and why?

Religion is always to blame for these things, not believing makes my life much more pleasurable.

 

not at all. there are people on this BBS that have known for a long time that i'll argue in a clear, articulate and balanced fashion on a multitude of subjects - even if the frustration sometimes shows, more often than not to my detriment. but frankly CoobyS, i'm long bored of making the same points on the whole middle east subject to people like you who have no desire to listen - only to rant, shout, rubbish any opposing views and fling cheap fascist insults about. this subject's too big and too complex for me to waste my time trying to have a civil exchange of views with a rabid intellectual dwarf such as you.

sorry but that's the way it is: i think you'll find more traction with like-minded people who don't post here anymore. unless you are one of those proverbial bad pennies come back with a new ID to be a pain in the neck?

 

Very good point. I wonder how the Muslim world views the West in light of the invasions of late?

 

So lets pull out and stop meddling, and whilst we're doing that stop doing charity stuff like live8 and wasting money on countries that cant look after themselves. I say leave everyone to it and look after our own, that would appease all the West haters (which you come across as).

 

you really are an ar5ehole aren't you. i suggest you listen both to socranie and shahid malik; perhaps then you might wake up and smell the coffee. unless you're actually part of the problem, mmmmm?