Loss of British National Identity. Responsible for attacks?
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educating each other, giving Muslims a better understanding of the British way of life and showing why it is not evil.
There is far too much political correctness now, whether it's a guilt trip started since the holocaust in WW2 or something else, but it is not the natural state of humans to be tolerant. We've spent thousands of years getting to this stage, warring, developing cultures, religions and beliefs and then a few idiots and peace loving hippies think that they can suddenly create successful multicultural societies within a few decades, by dumping millions of immigrants into other societies.
Yes, all immigrants are welcome to Britain but they must see that as a privilege, not a right, and they must accept our culture 100%.
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From: Scotchland
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Yes, all immigrants are welcome to Britain but they must see that as a privilege, not a right, and they must accept our culture 100%.
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From: Derbyshire
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Yes, all immigrants are welcome to Britain but they must see that as a privilege, not a right, and they must accept our culture 100%.
OK a tad OTT perhaps, but at what point in history do you draw the line and define that moment at typically "British"
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Which culture? The one before the influence of the romans? The vikings maybe? The Normans? Or before we started meddling in other countrys' affairs and bringing their populace back to be our slaves?
OK a tad OTT perhaps, but at what point in history do you draw the line and define that moment at typically "British"
OK a tad OTT perhaps, but at what point in history do you draw the line and define that moment at typically "British"
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Obviously they should accept the culture inplace at the time of their arrival into the country. If they disagree with our society they shouldn't come here in the first place.
BTW - How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
BTW - How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
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Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Obviously they should accept the culture inplace at the time of their arrival into the country. If they disagree with our society they shouldn't come here in the first place.
BTW - How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
BTW - How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
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From: Derbyshire
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Obviously they should accept the culture inplace at the time of their arrival into the country. If they disagree with our society they shouldn't come here in the first place.
Maybe we would do better looking to improving things going forward rather than wishing for some long gone ideal that never was.
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Originally Posted by OllyK
So dis-integration, racism and persecution is what they should adopt?
Maybe we would do better looking to improving things going forward rather than wishing for some long gone ideal that never was.
Maybe we would do better looking to improving things going forward rather than wishing for some long gone ideal that never was.
I'm being ridiculous of course but I don't see there's a quick fix to this whatsoever
Originally Posted by OllyK
So dis-integration, racism and persecution is what they should adopt?
Maybe we would do better looking to improving things going forward rather than wishing for some long gone ideal that never was.
Maybe we would do better looking to improving things going forward rather than wishing for some long gone ideal that never was.
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Don’t you think we’d be a lot better off if we just looked after our own and just let all these other countries get on with killing each other?? If they directly threaten our soil fookin obliterate them, if not let the get on with it. It not our problem why spend our tax £’s on people who don’t want it??
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From: Talk to the hand....
Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
Cos we need the oil 
It's a *very* special relationship you understand.
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From: Scotchland
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
wether you like it or not - Britain was attacked by the British last week.
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From: Scoobynet
Originally Posted by jasey
wether you like it or not - Britain was attacked by the British last week.
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From: Lancashire
Originally Posted by unclebuck
We don't. The Americans do, and Blair just blindly does whatever Bush tells him to. The irony is that when Blair wants some small concession in return Bush just tells him to **** off.
It's a *very* special relationship you understand.
It's a *very* special relationship you understand.
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From: Scotchland
Originally Posted by Petem95
British citizens yes (as they happened to be born here), there would be some debate as to whether you would define the bombers as 'British' however, they probably wouldnt call themselves that.
They were British murdering terrorist scum !
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From: New Jack City
Originally Posted by jasey
If I were you I'd stay in blightey - you wouldn't survive long outside the UK.
The whole oil argument is not as simple as stated. It's not a case of going to Iraq to steal the oil come back and say, Here boys..fill up your Scoobs.
Oil will always be available. The countries producing it need to sell it, doesn't matter who controls it. In the case of attacking Iraq it's about certain corporations who have greased the right palms in power so they directly benefit from the processing and sale of it.
.
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From: Lancashire
I thought we were in these countries just to safegaurd our oil deals, not about stealing the oil etc.
If we're not, then IMO we should pull all of the troops out of Iraq, along with US troops and just leave them to live their own lives and blow each other up if they wish.
If we're not, then IMO we should pull all of the troops out of Iraq, along with US troops and just leave them to live their own lives and blow each other up if they wish.
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From: California
I wonder which parts of the US Boris was driving around?! It must have been the Mid West. Where I am there are pockets of utterly non-integrated immigrants. There are areas that are nearly 100% Korean, same for Chinese. The signage is all in Chinese/Korean. One whole side of the city is mainly Mexican. I can walk to the largest concentration of Afghans in the US from where I am. When you vote the forms are available in 27 (!) languages. Integrated my ****.
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Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
If I were you I'd stay in blightey - you wouldn't survive long outside the UK.
How long would I, as an white male, have to live in China to be considered Chinese or Pakistan to be considered a Pakistani?
If I were you I'd stay in blightey - you wouldn't survive long outside the UK.
KiwiGti doesn't like going abroad anway, he says there are too many foreigners.
The ONLY people in the world with this stupid idea of a utopian multicultural paradise are the West.
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Originally Posted by angrynorth
Boris Johnson thinks so...
I have already had enough about how perfectly normal these young men were, and what charming fellows they were, and how there was nothing they loved more than serving in dad's chip shop or helping an old lady across the street or a good game of cricket in the park.
"All he wanted to do was have a laugh," said one of the neighbours last night, about one of the sick quartet responsible for killing themselves and at least 52 others in London. "He was sound as a pound." Yeah, right. If these four young men were perfectly normal Yorkshiremen, then what the hell is happening to this country? Of all the shattering revelations of the past few days, the worst has been that these suicide bombers were British.
They were our very own. They were as British as a wet bank holiday. They were as British as Tizer, and queues and Y-fronts and the Changing of the Guard, and the chips that made them what they were. They were born in British maternity wards, and attended by every comfort that the state could give.
They went to British primary schools and learnt about Britain from British teachers, and when they murdered so many of their fellow Britons it was the British emergency services who tried to save what lives they could.
That shocking fact of their Britishness tells us something frightening about them and about us, because, as suicide bombers go, they are unusual. When the Palestinian bombers attack Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, they usually come from miserable lives in Nablus or Hebron. When the 19 suicide bombers destroyed the Twin Towers they originated, without exception, from the Arab world, mainly Saudi Arabia.
We seem to have pulled off the rare feat of breeding suicide bombers determined to attack the very society that incubated them; and the question is why. Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own? Last summer we had a magnificent holiday driving around America, and for a cynical Brit it was astonishing to see the way the Americans fly that flag of theirs.
On every porch, on every flagpole, on every bumper: there were the stars and stripes, unabashed, exuberant, proud. Contrast our treatment of the Union Flag, which is endlessly being cited in racial harassment cases, on the ground that it is provocative merely - for instance - to stick it on your locker. Remember Bob Ayling, the Labour-supporting businessman who succeeded the late, great Lord King at British Airways, and decided that the Union Flag was so too embarrassing that he stripped it from the tailfins of his planes.
The Americans would be mystified by our approach to a national symbol. For them the flag is a vital agent of integration, a way of asserting that, in that vast immigrant country, each person is not only American but equally American, and has an equal stake in society. That is why American children still begin their day at school by pledging allegiance to the flag, and that is why the Americans show a patriotism and a simple enthusiasm for their own country that our jaded British sensibilities find childish.
Well, if you consider what is taught in British schools - and when you think that one of the killers was actually a primary school teacher - it is hard to deny that in their assessment of what a nation needs to stick together, the Americans are right, and we are tragically wrong. It is not just that most British children no longer know much about British history (13 per cent of 16- to 24-year- olds think the Armada was defeated by Hornblower, and six per cent ascribe the great naval victory to Gandalf).
The disaster is that we no longer make any real demands of loyalty upon those who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. There are many culprits, and foremost among them is Enoch Powell. As Bill Deedes has pointed out over the years, the problem was not so much his catastrophic 1968 tirade against immigration, but the way he made it impossible for any serious politician to discuss the consequences of immigration, and how a multiracial society ought to work.
In the wake of Powell's racist foray, no one had the guts to talk about Britishness, or whether it was a good thing to insist - as the Americans do so successfully - on the basic loyalty of immigrants to the country of immigration.
So we have drifted on over the intervening decades, and created a multi-cultural society that has many beauties and attractions, but in which too many Britons have absolutely no sense of allegiance to this country or its institutions. It is a cultural calamity that will take decades to reverse, and we must begin now with what I call in this morning's Spectator the re-Britannification of Britain.
That means insisting, in a way that is cheery and polite, on certain values that we identify as British. If that means the end of spouting hate in mosques, and treating women as second-class citizens, then so be it. We need to acculturate the second-generation Muslim communities to our way of life, and end the obvious alienation that they feel.
That means the imams will have to change their tune, and it is no use the Muslim Council of Great Britain endlessly saying that "the problem is not Islam", when it is blindingly obvious that in far too many mosques you can find sermons of hate, and literature glorifying 9/11 and vilifying Jews.
We have reached a turning-point in the relations between the Muslim community and the rest of us, and it is time for the moderates to show real leadership. That is why I want to end with the words of my Labour colleague Shahid Malik, MP for Dewsbury, who said yesterday: "The challenge is straightforward - that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated, whether they be on the streets, in the schools, in the youth clubs, in the mosque, in a corner, in a house.
We need to go beyond condemning. We need to confront." Well said, Shahid; and it is time for the imams to follow.
I have already had enough about how perfectly normal these young men were, and what charming fellows they were, and how there was nothing they loved more than serving in dad's chip shop or helping an old lady across the street or a good game of cricket in the park.
"All he wanted to do was have a laugh," said one of the neighbours last night, about one of the sick quartet responsible for killing themselves and at least 52 others in London. "He was sound as a pound." Yeah, right. If these four young men were perfectly normal Yorkshiremen, then what the hell is happening to this country? Of all the shattering revelations of the past few days, the worst has been that these suicide bombers were British.
They were our very own. They were as British as a wet bank holiday. They were as British as Tizer, and queues and Y-fronts and the Changing of the Guard, and the chips that made them what they were. They were born in British maternity wards, and attended by every comfort that the state could give.
They went to British primary schools and learnt about Britain from British teachers, and when they murdered so many of their fellow Britons it was the British emergency services who tried to save what lives they could.
That shocking fact of their Britishness tells us something frightening about them and about us, because, as suicide bombers go, they are unusual. When the Palestinian bombers attack Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, they usually come from miserable lives in Nablus or Hebron. When the 19 suicide bombers destroyed the Twin Towers they originated, without exception, from the Arab world, mainly Saudi Arabia.
We seem to have pulled off the rare feat of breeding suicide bombers determined to attack the very society that incubated them; and the question is why. Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own? Last summer we had a magnificent holiday driving around America, and for a cynical Brit it was astonishing to see the way the Americans fly that flag of theirs.
On every porch, on every flagpole, on every bumper: there were the stars and stripes, unabashed, exuberant, proud. Contrast our treatment of the Union Flag, which is endlessly being cited in racial harassment cases, on the ground that it is provocative merely - for instance - to stick it on your locker. Remember Bob Ayling, the Labour-supporting businessman who succeeded the late, great Lord King at British Airways, and decided that the Union Flag was so too embarrassing that he stripped it from the tailfins of his planes.
The Americans would be mystified by our approach to a national symbol. For them the flag is a vital agent of integration, a way of asserting that, in that vast immigrant country, each person is not only American but equally American, and has an equal stake in society. That is why American children still begin their day at school by pledging allegiance to the flag, and that is why the Americans show a patriotism and a simple enthusiasm for their own country that our jaded British sensibilities find childish.
Well, if you consider what is taught in British schools - and when you think that one of the killers was actually a primary school teacher - it is hard to deny that in their assessment of what a nation needs to stick together, the Americans are right, and we are tragically wrong. It is not just that most British children no longer know much about British history (13 per cent of 16- to 24-year- olds think the Armada was defeated by Hornblower, and six per cent ascribe the great naval victory to Gandalf).
The disaster is that we no longer make any real demands of loyalty upon those who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. There are many culprits, and foremost among them is Enoch Powell. As Bill Deedes has pointed out over the years, the problem was not so much his catastrophic 1968 tirade against immigration, but the way he made it impossible for any serious politician to discuss the consequences of immigration, and how a multiracial society ought to work.
In the wake of Powell's racist foray, no one had the guts to talk about Britishness, or whether it was a good thing to insist - as the Americans do so successfully - on the basic loyalty of immigrants to the country of immigration.
So we have drifted on over the intervening decades, and created a multi-cultural society that has many beauties and attractions, but in which too many Britons have absolutely no sense of allegiance to this country or its institutions. It is a cultural calamity that will take decades to reverse, and we must begin now with what I call in this morning's Spectator the re-Britannification of Britain.
That means insisting, in a way that is cheery and polite, on certain values that we identify as British. If that means the end of spouting hate in mosques, and treating women as second-class citizens, then so be it. We need to acculturate the second-generation Muslim communities to our way of life, and end the obvious alienation that they feel.
That means the imams will have to change their tune, and it is no use the Muslim Council of Great Britain endlessly saying that "the problem is not Islam", when it is blindingly obvious that in far too many mosques you can find sermons of hate, and literature glorifying 9/11 and vilifying Jews.
We have reached a turning-point in the relations between the Muslim community and the rest of us, and it is time for the moderates to show real leadership. That is why I want to end with the words of my Labour colleague Shahid Malik, MP for Dewsbury, who said yesterday: "The challenge is straightforward - that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated, whether they be on the streets, in the schools, in the youth clubs, in the mosque, in a corner, in a house.
We need to go beyond condemning. We need to confront." Well said, Shahid; and it is time for the imams to follow.
What is he on? After seeing the way Paxman tore him apart on election night in the most humiliating way I have ever seen, 'BJ' is easily one of the most stupid politicians in this country - who cares what he says?
Assuming this is the whole piece, he starts ok, fair enough, I can see his points, then simply blaming everything on Muslims in the UK and Imams is complete rubbish. I wonder how many mosques he has been to where he has observed this behaviour?
I am not a practising Muslim, but was born one and therefore have a modicum of respect for the religon. Recently when my Uncle passed away I went to the service in the Mosque (in Manchester) There was not a single word of hatred for anyone, the West, Jews, you name it, in fact the words were the complete opposite, asking people to pray for peace in the World etc.
One thing they do say, that you dont hear much elsewhere is for peace in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq etc.
Mosques are not dark, evil, places where satanic chanting goes on and people are conspring in corners to kill everyone, why don't you try visiting one, your perfectly welcome to? You may be surprised.
Also in places I am more familiar with, like the Mosque in Hounslow, where I grew up and used to go to a lot, anyone even handing out political literature is banned and the Police are called to remove them from anywhere in the vicinity of the place, the worshippers simply dont like them there and the Mosque authorities are very sensitive to their image, so react decisively.
Imams dont preach hatred, they would simply get caught out, even if they wanted to, look at Abu Hamza? 'BJ' is completely wide of the mark, as usual.
Why doesn't he look at New Labours War on Terror and the wonderful fruit that has borne? Probably because the Tory Party were 100% complicit in the War and subsequent invasions, the Tories love a bit of Wog Bashing dont they? Reminds them of the good old days of Empire, when the Sun never set on Britannia, gunboat diplomacy, nice bit of croquet then I'll just pop out and sink the Armada etc etc.
They are easily the most inept opposition EVER, for simply agreeing to everything Blair wanted, who simply agreed to everything Bush wanted, all for what? For 'no favours' in return.
Loss of Britishness? Not surprising as everyone wants to be American, nothing wrong with Americans but they are Americans and we are not.
People forget that most former colonial immigrants have a very good appreciation of British society, British ways and customs and love living here in the UK. They have lived here for decades, held jobs, payed taxes, started businesses etc - a major contribution to society. Immigrants have helped run the National Health Service, transport Services, and taken low payed jobs that the indigenous white population seemed happy to leave them to. (I could go on here for some length...)
So why shouldn't immigrants be entitled to something back? ie like the right to live here without persecution? Suddenly that becomes "They've turned the whole country upside down for their benefit, how dare they? Send 'em home, blah blah!"
From my point of view, with the asian/muslim people I know, they are fine upstanding examples of old fashioned 'Britishness' - politeness, courtesy, respect for the elderly, happy to queue, family values, etc.
Why doesn't 'BJ' pick up on a couple of other points, like the way British people treat their own country. As far as I am concerned the biggest social problem in this country is litter and it is the indigenous majority that drop most of it. It is endemic of what people think about the place that they live in. If people think that this place is crap they will drop litter, they will also not care about other blights on the landscape, graffiti, Chav culture etc (dont even get me started on this...)
Anyway Rant over.
Asif
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From: scotland home of the brave
asif and other coloured folk brown, black or yellow
even if u bend over backwards and try to become a brit and even try harder than a whiteman to be a proper brit
u still gonna get called a black, paki or yella ******* and go back to your country etc even if u were born here and did more for this country as our ancestors did in the world war 2
and u will still be told the old story if u are born in a stable u wont become a horse so if u r born here u still aint a brit, soon as something happens and u critisize a bad policy that even whites critisize u will be told if u dont like it **** off somewhere else
even if u bend over backwards and try to become a brit and even try harder than a whiteman to be a proper brit
u still gonna get called a black, paki or yella ******* and go back to your country etc even if u were born here and did more for this country as our ancestors did in the world war 2
and u will still be told the old story if u are born in a stable u wont become a horse so if u r born here u still aint a brit, soon as something happens and u critisize a bad policy that even whites critisize u will be told if u dont like it **** off somewhere else
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
Well said Boris. No doubt the Politically Correct will be lining up to give him a kicking for it though.
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
Muslims communities in this country need to shape up or ship out IMHO. Just saying 'we can't believe this has happened' or that 'we are totally shocked' is no longer good enough. They need to sort themselves out - pronto!!
Its not about kicking him for being un PC, he's just stupid!
Why are Muslims solely responsible for bringing the terrorists to justice? Trust me If I knew where they lived, they would be behind bars straight away. That goes for 99.99% of the Muslim population in this country.
Believe you me when I say that they dont like things like the War in Iraq, Afghanistan and they do feel that people are happy to kill Muslims, or when Muslims are killed no one seems to complain. That is their perception and you know what? - I share that perception.
Doesn't mean I would become a terrorist though does it? Neither would anyone I know.
Getting back to your comments are you responsible for reporting it if your next door neighbour beats and then kills his Wife? Even though you were completely oblivious to it? If you are not responsible, why not? No one was physically closer to the crime than you, you must be responsible.
See?
Asif
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Originally Posted by moses
asif and other coloured folk brown, black or yellow
even if u bend over backwards and try to become a brit and even try harder than a whiteman to be a proper brit
u still gonna get called a black, paki or yella ******* and go back to your country etc even if u were born here and did more for this country as our ancestors did in the world war 2
and u will still be told the old story if u are born in a stable u wont become a horse so if u r born here u still aint a brit, soon as something happens and u critisize a bad policy that even whites critisize u will be told if u dont like it **** off somewhere else
even if u bend over backwards and try to become a brit and even try harder than a whiteman to be a proper brit
u still gonna get called a black, paki or yella ******* and go back to your country etc even if u were born here and did more for this country as our ancestors did in the world war 2
and u will still be told the old story if u are born in a stable u wont become a horse so if u r born here u still aint a brit, soon as something happens and u critisize a bad policy that even whites critisize u will be told if u dont like it **** off somewhere else
I am British, by virtue of my Passport and the Law of the Land. I was born here. Some of my (English) friends tell me that I am English, even more English than they are, but I will never call myself English (unless things change radically)
Being English is about a little more than a passport. People go on about integration, but I learned a long time ago, when I was a youngster, I told an English kid that I was English (had just come out of a classroom) and he stated, very matter of factly, that "No you're not, you're a Paki"
This was when I was a kid, a VERY long time ago and things have changed, but how much? When I first joined SN I remember going into the chatroom and got called a "Paki" on there also, many times, by a complete stranger, but someone who was a SN regular at the time.
It wasn't a joke and indicative of just how some people are so comfortable with casual racism.
Any English people on here really need to understand that sort of behaviour before making pronouncements about ethnic minorities in this country.
Anyway...I need to chill out a little bit after all of that, bad memories.
Asif