OllyK

I am sorry, but Islam has the same fundamental problem that Judaism and Xianty have - they are all based on circular logic:
How do you know god exists?
Becuase our holy book says so.
How do you know your holy book is correct?
Becuase god says it is so

Religions do not stand up to logical or scientific scruitiny, period, that's why you have to have faith. Without faith the religion falls as there is nothing else to support it.

I admit my knowledge of Islam is not what it might be and certainly is nothing compared to my knowledge of Xianity and Judaism, however the very basis of any religion is faith. When any religion can scientifically prove the existence of their god then I will believe, as will everybody else in the world, until that day, I will remain with the default proposition.

OllyK

That's one of the big problems with Omnipotence. It allows god to be undetectable as he can change the "rules" to avoid being detected. However with omnipotence comes paradox. You do have to ask yourself however, if god's effect is undetectable, then why waste time praying to him as for all the effect he is having, he may as well not exist.

TheBigMan

So you can neither prove a religion nor disprove it.

Religion itself I feel is good, as previously stated. It aacts as good moral guidelines. It's people and humans natural tendency to corrupt that have tarnished a once positive "idea".

Religion isn't the problem - its the **** that take it way too far, concurrently tarnishing what it is they are supposed to believe in.

A true member of Islam is tolerant of others beliefs - then you see them all burning flags and killing (the extremists are killing). That's not religion - that's "people".

TheBigMan

Crude reply....

"Hence why it's all toss".

khany

You are 100% correct.

TheBigMan

I know.

Just kidding.

That's just my perception of it. People ruining something that in its strictest sense is a good thing.

OllyK

You got it, hence the term "faith"

I see little benefit in religion whatsoever, even from a moral perspective. I would consider myself reasonably moral, I don't steal or kill. I don't do this because I fear Hell and eternal damnation, I do it becuase it is beneficial for me and society as a whole if I don't behave in an anti-social manner. Believe me (or if you don't have a look at some of the posts here ) there are some Xian fundamentalists out there who say they would kill if it were not for god keeping them in check - and that really scares me!


Religion puts people in nice little boxes that then allows them to start bickering about who is right. Much the same can be said about skin colour and language as well. The removal of religion would be the removal of one more of the many things that we humans find to fight about.

redwrx

In answer to a comment earlier....

Jehovah (Yahweh)
The proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it the name by excellence, the great name, the only name, the glorious and terrible name, the hidden and mysterious name, the name of the substance, the proper name, and most frequently shem hammephorash, i.e. the explicit or the separated name, though the precise meaning of this last expression is a matter of discussion (cf. Buxtorf, "Lexicon", Basle, 1639, col. 2432 sqq.).

Jehovah occurs more frequently than any other Divine name. The Concordances of Furst ("Vet. Test. Concordantiae", Leipzig, 1840) and Mandelkern ("Vet. Test. Concordantiae", Leipzig, 1896) do not exactly agree as to the number of its occurrences; but in round numbers it is found in the Old Testament 6000 times, either alone or in conjunction with another Divine name. The Septuagint and the Vulgate render the name generally by "Lord" (Kyrios, Dominus), a translation of Adonai—usually substituted for Jehovah in reading.

Jahveh (Yahweh) is one of the archaic Hebrew nouns, such as Jacob, Joseph, Israel, etc. (cf. Ewald, "Lehrbuch der hebr. Sprache", 7th ed., 1863, p. 664), derived from the third person imperfect in such a way as to attribute to a person or a thing the action of the quality expressed by the verb after the manner of a verbal adjective or a participle. Furst has collected most of these nouns, and calls the form forma participialis imperfectiva. As the Divine name is an imperfect form of the archaic Hebrew verb "to be", Jahveh means "He Who is", Whose characteristic note consists in being, or The Being simply.

It may only be Jehovahs witnesses that use the name, but it wasnt devised by them -


Above text taken from the Catholic encylopeadia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08329a.htm


Frank

turboman786

I havnt read most of this thread...but I would like to make the simpl point that being Jewish is both a religious and/or racial identity. You are BORN jewish if your mum is jewish...you can convert to Judaisn from any race, but they have to let you in..not quite as easy as 'Im a Jew now...

and final point...you can be a jew without believing in God....thats the racial side of the identity.

Geezer

Sorry turboman, but which part of racial don't you understand?

It relates to race - i.e. caucasian, negroid mongoloid, american & polynesian

Jews are just Caucasians. They are only seperated by a belief. You are born free of the constraints of any belief system. No one is born a Jew, or a Muslim. I was not born a christian, I am not christened or baptised. I formed my own opinion about religion during childhood. That is how it should be, we shouldn't impose our beliefs on our children.

The Jewish identity is not a physical manifestation, period.

Geezer

moses

lol your welcome guys thats a famous arabic joke ms dynamitee

Jap2Scrap

Agree with this revision. Far better wording than what I posted.

moses

geezer mate classical jews call God eli or eli same as Allah in arabic and jesus language aramaic he is called alaha or alahi


jehovah is a made up term

see long long time ago, they found some texts containing the gramattan something i cant mind what it was called properly

words like

jhwh and coz they thought it was Gods name, they started pronouncing it jehovah

u cant really make a word with something like jhwh

we have the same prophets and same God.

only difference being is jews reject prophet jesus and mohammad and believe their Gods chosen race and people, and only they will get to heaven.


and christians believe in the above and believe jesus was God which is blasphemy and dont follow the torah law and reject prophet mohammad

and muslims believe the above but jesus is the servant of God and a messiah a chosen one and from a virgin birth but he def aint God and he wasnt crucified. and believe Gods chosen are people who believe in him with all their heart and soul and follow him

in islam jews of old are called muslims and so are the followers of jesus the original christians.

and in islam their is no such thing as intercession , only God has the power to forgive u, and adam and eve were forgiven in heaven in the bible they werent and alot of other things



basically el, eli, alahi and Allah is the same God

and also when jesus supposed to be on the cross in the bible he says

eli eli lama sabachtani even in the jehovahs witness bible meaning my God my God why have u forsaken me

he doesnt say yahweh yahweh eli sabachtani

i asked the jws about it, they said sorry it was in the texts most ancient so couldnt change it to jehovah haha

moses

my dear bros ted, jews is a race thing my bros

if u are a convert u are a second class jew and if u are a black jew u get treated like a lowlife in israel my friend, those black jews are purer jews than most israeli gentile european half breeds

yemeni and arab jews from arab lands and turkish are purer jews than the most israelis as well

moses

mate judaism comes from judea and the tribe of judah, it aint the religion its a made up name my friend

we class them original hebrews as muslims

islam was their from the beginning from the time of adam

muslim means to submit to the will of God

thats all and in the quran jews and christians of old were called muslims


the jews got their name from foreigners , others who called them jews coz they were from judea and the rest of the hebrews merged with the tribe of judah the all ruling tribe and the powerful

josephs kids were arabs, he married an arab from his kin and bloodline of ishmael and his children stayed their

his stepbrothers childrens through generations became jews

moses

islam was first bros, the jews who originated from hebrews were called muslims

moses

in islam its different, see the original historians didnt have much knowledge when they wrote down history and Gods sayings


God said he made the man in the best image


and in the bible he says he made man in his own image

i dont think the historians understood that part

if i make my evo the way i want it with 800 bhp and a gt wing, i made it in my own image, the image in my brain, it dont mean the evo looks like me, no way


God made man in the best design is what it means

and God doesnt say in the koran original arabic text he made the world in 6 days and he rested

it says 6 periods and it dont say how long the periods were at all, only God knows it cant be 24 hr periods which is bull

and he doesnt rest, takes a dump and eats, whoever does that aint God

moses

koran has the same prophets but totally different , u read it mate and then read the bible u will understand the difference

bible is written by some by prophets, some Gods saying, some corrupt rabbis and holymen, historians and kings

it aint really all the word of God


stuff like samson went into gaza and he saw a ***** and went into her, to do what , what holy spirit did he find in her.

u see what i mean

and onan spilled his semen on the ground coz he didnt want to give his child his brothers name via tamar the widow of his brother

u see what i mean, it aint the word of God but historians

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/


God chose islam to perfect religion to its purest form to bring the jews and christians and arabs the seed of the prophet abraham they give them the greatest prophet of all

the most successful prophet ever without any miracles but the quran he changed mankind and billions believe in jesus virgin birth and the prophets all coz of this one man

moses

lol


no mate jews turned away from God it even says in the bible that God will punish them more than anyone and he will choose another nation

that was the arabs his own people too, God chose jews to preach and do good things

they became racial, corrupt and materialistic and made forbidden what God didnt make forbidden and turned away from the prophets teachings of old and God sent them jesus to guide them to tried to kill him

and before that, they made up stuff against king david that he was an adulterer and solomon started worshipping idols which is bull anyway.

and alot of other things

arabs were muslims too in the time of the prophet ishmael and his people, like the jews they turned away and followed their own desire and became idol worshippers too bud like the jews started worshipping baal and the golden calf so did arabs


and christians became roman pagans

moses

well in the quran and arabs knew 1400 yrs ago the world was oval shaped

here geezer for u bros


http://jamaat.net/muh-christ/Muh-Christ1.html



http://jamaat.net/muhinbible/muhinbible.html

JamieMacdonald

So is the Pope a Catholic?

moses

haha aye mate

gsm1

Just to add...the bit about Jews being a race is true but only in belief. Scientifically it doesn't hold up.

moses

it def doesnt bros

did u know or ever see the jews from europe in ships to palestine, blonde and blue eyed mongrels

no way their pure jews

proper jews are the turkish, arab jews, iraqis and iranian jews and tunisian ones

did u know shoval mofaz is an iranian jew, makes me sad when he is willing to betray the country of his birth and get sanctions and push the americans to do something about it, traitor and did u know sharon is a ukrainian nothing to do with the land of palestine

and also ben elezier ex defence minister is an iraqi jew

u can tell their darker and look arabic, where sharon and other muppets are mixed

Pogue

I'm a Christian but I don't beleive Jesus was God

But I beleive that.... Bloody Hell, I'm a Muslim !!

dba

Moses,with all due respect,Jehovah is not a made up term to some,saying so is a criticsim of other faiths.Salmon Rushdie was twatted for saying a lot less than that

OllyK

moses has painted a picture closer to a catholic christian I think, who very much believe in the holy trinity. Many other Xians, believe JC to be the Son of God, a prophet and the saviour but not the same as god, he just sits at his right hand.

There are so many varieties of Xianity that it makes it quite hard to actually get at the core of the belief system. All versions however seem believe in a character who's story is the combined story of 3 rabbis covering 100 years or so mixed in with quite a bit of paganism particulary the egyptian gods osiris and petra (Peter).

redwrx

Jehovahs Witnesses believe that JC is the 'son' of God, not God himself. They believe in one Almighty God, whose name is obviously Jehovah, and they believe in the existance of the holy spirit, as Gods active force.

And as someone said earlier on, the holy spirit, whilst it can not be seen literally, because it is a spirit, like the wind, you can feel its effects.

And when you pray, and you ask for Gods help, it is the spirit he grants which helps you.





(3 of my family members are witnesses, and some of my best mates are - so ive kinda learnt alot about them)


If i was ever going to take religion or faith seriously, i would only ever be a JW, because down to personal preferance i believe they are right, but im not so narrow minded into believeing that people arent entitled to freedom of speech and belief, when that be a belief in god, or not.

One of the ways i'd ask myself who is right, is whether that 'religion' or 'faith' would allow or support its members taking up arms against its fellow man. Many JW's have been killed and tortured because they will not take up arms against fellow man, something that i dont think many other faiths would do. rather to the contrary.

Geezer

Moses,
It's easy for you to say that all the old hebrews were called Muslims, but there is simply no mention of Islam before Mohammed.

There is no historical record of another 'God' worshipping religion in the region, so Mohammed must be a Jew, or he has adopted Judaism as a historical backup to his claims.

It is not uncommon for religions to adopt various bits of other ones. Most of the Christain festivals are based upon old Pagan ones to help them convert!

Geezer

OllyK

Even Christianity's central figure JC is based on the pagan gods Osiris, Tammuz & Dionysus for the most part. The virgin birth and most if not all the miracles attributed to JC had already been done by these previous gods many years before JC is claimed to have been bourn - and that's a floating date as well!