New AP Racing Impreza Brake Kit!
26 November 1999, 03:12 AM
#31
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That's very interesting Mark, exactly the sort of experience I'd hoped to find. The next obvious question is - how much? The standard brakes can be sold (or kept for reverting when selling the car), so we are really talking the difference between
the value of the standard brakes
+ group N disks
+ braided lines
and the cost of the AP kit.
With the Suby calipers costing 670 AUD each, and disks at 150 AUD each, and braided lines at about 300 AUD we're at about 2140 without pads (consumables) vs 3140 AUD for the full AP / Brembo kit (including pads - say 300 AUD, and fluid - say 50 AUD). That brings the difference to about 650 AUD. Maybe it's worth it. The brakes can be carried over to the next car (if the MY01 is similar in the hubs) or sold.
Do I sound like I'm talking myself into it? All I need is to talk the Mother-in-law into bringing them over to Aus in her hand luggage!!
Yes there have been a lot of problems with the disks in Aus. A friend of mine cracked two in one afternoon at one of our tracks which has a tight corner after a long straight. He was using trick pads, but they were obviously too good for the disks. He has since gone back to a slightly more compromised compound to save his disks.
Sounds like you should be getting into rallying Stephan, with all the sideways antics - good stuff.
Geoff
the value of the standard brakes
+ group N disks
+ braided lines
and the cost of the AP kit.
With the Suby calipers costing 670 AUD each, and disks at 150 AUD each, and braided lines at about 300 AUD we're at about 2140 without pads (consumables) vs 3140 AUD for the full AP / Brembo kit (including pads - say 300 AUD, and fluid - say 50 AUD). That brings the difference to about 650 AUD. Maybe it's worth it. The brakes can be carried over to the next car (if the MY01 is similar in the hubs) or sold.
Do I sound like I'm talking myself into it? All I need is to talk the Mother-in-law into bringing them over to Aus in her hand luggage!!
Yes there have been a lot of problems with the disks in Aus. A friend of mine cracked two in one afternoon at one of our tracks which has a tight corner after a long straight. He was using trick pads, but they were obviously too good for the disks. He has since gone back to a slightly more compromised compound to save his disks.
Sounds like you should be getting into rallying Stephan, with all the sideways antics - good stuff.
Geoff
26 November 1999, 10:35 AM
#32
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This may be of interest..
I was at ScoobySport having my MY99 hairline-cracked discs replaced (under warranty)..I asked Pete to check the pads since after Donington they have been noisy and rubbish.
Well the pads resembled charcoal. They had totally dried up, glazed and fell to bits. (only 24K miles, one trackday)
Since Pete has no Subaru pads he managed to persuage my lease company that Pagids represent a better investment since they last longer.
Certainly the pagids provide a better feel, what was also of interest is that the discs are expected to only last 10k miles !!
Pete's opinion was that the 99 STi brakes are not really much of an improvement. This is a shame cos it was one of the selling points of a 99 car over previous models.
I am now planning to move to a decent brake kit for next track season.
My advice..if you are going to do trackdays then decent brakes are not a luxury - they are a NECESSITY !!
I was at ScoobySport having my MY99 hairline-cracked discs replaced (under warranty)..I asked Pete to check the pads since after Donington they have been noisy and rubbish.
Well the pads resembled charcoal. They had totally dried up, glazed and fell to bits. (only 24K miles, one trackday)
Since Pete has no Subaru pads he managed to persuage my lease company that Pagids represent a better investment since they last longer.
Certainly the pagids provide a better feel, what was also of interest is that the discs are expected to only last 10k miles !!
Pete's opinion was that the 99 STi brakes are not really much of an improvement. This is a shame cos it was one of the selling points of a 99 car over previous models.
I am now planning to move to a decent brake kit for next track season.
My advice..if you are going to do trackdays then decent brakes are not a luxury - they are a NECESSITY !!
26 November 1999, 12:09 PM
#34
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Hi Geoff, the Group N cars are using harder pads ,as you say, but also the discs are exact OE dimentions, but pure grey cast, and made to tighter tolerances etc. Alcon [ which I think is Australian company] provide a version of this, as does Brembo. When comparisons are made betwee Subaru 4-pots and the after-market types, the subaru hardware is invariably with standard pads, rubber brake lines and mass produced discs.
I have the 4-pots, with group N disc, braided hoses and Mintex m1155 pads and find this a great road set-up, although I haven't used it on a track. I am sure the Brembo and AP set-up's are superior for extened track use, but it depends on your requirements. With quality discs and pads on the Subaru 4-pots the gap between them would be smaller. In UK there has been a fair few warranty claims on heat-cracked discs on the MY-99 , has the Australian WRX's has similar problems?
Mark
I have the 4-pots, with group N disc, braided hoses and Mintex m1155 pads and find this a great road set-up, although I haven't used it on a track. I am sure the Brembo and AP set-up's are superior for extened track use, but it depends on your requirements. With quality discs and pads on the Subaru 4-pots the gap between them would be smaller. In UK there has been a fair few warranty claims on heat-cracked discs on the MY-99 , has the Australian WRX's has similar problems?
Mark
28 November 1999, 10:09 AM
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Right, time to spice things up a bit!!!!
No disrespect to absolutely anyone but just trying to keep things exciting
Stef, you upgraded to the AP kit from std Subaru Brakes (i presume). You havent used any other manufacturers kit and think AP is the dogs danglies - i am sure it might well be but your opion is very biased!
I have the SS Brembo kit with std Brembo pads and can get my ABS to kick in whenever desired in the dry. Surely hitting the ABS is a fairly defintive measure of braking power/bite and i can and you cant....ner ner ne ner ner!!
Burn me baby!
No disrespect to absolutely anyone but just trying to keep things exciting
Stef, you upgraded to the AP kit from std Subaru Brakes (i presume). You havent used any other manufacturers kit and think AP is the dogs danglies - i am sure it might well be but your opion is very biased!
I have the SS Brembo kit with std Brembo pads and can get my ABS to kick in whenever desired in the dry. Surely hitting the ABS is a fairly defintive measure of braking power/bite and i can and you cant....ner ner ne ner ner!!
Burn me baby!
29 November 1999, 12:18 AM
#38
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Bajie.
I did not/do not want this to become a Brembo vs AP Racing affair, although some people may view it as such.
I'm sure there are pro's and con's of each system.
I am simply giving MY opinion on a kit that I have fitted to my car. I can't offer any other comparisons, other than how the AP kit compares to my standard twin-pots.
Some people (Sunilp) joined in thinking that 'cos their ABS comes in at will, it must mean the Brembo kit is better. If it is, this is certainly NOT the reason for it as previously explained. It is the reason however, why Sunilp is now doing an impression of a Pringle!!!! 
Believe me, if the AP kit had not performed, I would have been just as vocal. It was a development kit though, and I was expecting some niggles that simply didn't happen.
All the better for AP and Scoobymania I guess.
Running head-to-head with a Brembo equipped car won't prove anything. The differences in driving style, ******** size () and of course the car itself are too large variables.
Track days are the best test of any brake kit, and both kits perform superbly here.
Which one performs best is a matter for each individual to decide.
Stef.
I did not/do not want this to become a Brembo vs AP Racing affair, although some people may view it as such.
I'm sure there are pro's and con's of each system.
I am simply giving MY opinion on a kit that I have fitted to my car. I can't offer any other comparisons, other than how the AP kit compares to my standard twin-pots.
Some people (Sunilp
) joined in thinking that 'cos their ABS comes in at will, it must mean the Brembo kit is better. If it is, this is certainly NOT the reason for it as previously explained. It is the reason however, why Sunilp is now doing an impression of a Pringle!!!! Believe me, if the AP kit had not performed, I would have been just as vocal. It was a development kit though, and I was expecting some niggles that simply didn't happen.
All the better for AP and Scoobymania I guess.
Running head-to-head with a Brembo equipped car won't prove anything. The differences in driving style, ******** size (
) and of course the car itself are too large variables.Track days are the best test of any brake kit, and both kits perform superbly here.
Which one performs best is a matter for each individual to decide.
Stef.
29 November 1999, 09:14 AM
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Sunil/Stef
Why don't you do a Head to Head [Clarkson!] with your braking systems.
Get up to a desired speed and slam on the anchors. See who stops quickest.
Swap cars [?] and repeat. Do a few laps in each others cars and give us all the results.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Brembo's or APs. I'm just glad to have the choice ...
Why don't you do a Head to Head [Clarkson!] with your braking systems.
Get up to a desired speed and slam on the anchors. See who stops quickest.
Swap cars [?] and repeat. Do a few laps in each others cars and give us all the results.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Brembo's or APs. I'm just glad to have the choice ...
29 November 1999, 03:00 PM
#40
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You see. That's the answer I wanted.
As I said I'm glad to have the choice and have seen good arguments regarding AP and Brembo in this and other threads.
So now I can make my choice and be happy.
As I said I'm glad to have the choice and have seen good arguments regarding AP and Brembo in this and other threads.
So now I can make my choice and be happy.
29 November 1999, 03:23 PM
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Thats the answer I wanted.
I've been watching the brake related threads as this will be my next upgrade.
I don't think anyone who has upgraded is too upset with what they have and has witnessed a vast improvement over their old setup.
At the end of the day, its a personal choice, which as there are now two players can only be good for all of us.
I've been watching the brake related threads as this will be my next upgrade.
I don't think anyone who has upgraded is too upset with what they have and has witnessed a vast improvement over their old setup.
At the end of the day, its a personal choice, which as there are now two players can only be good for all of us.
29 November 1999, 03:39 PM
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Stef are you getting to keep the AP's you tested? I reckon you should be allowed to have 'em for nowt 'cos you've surely earned it with all the free advertising you've given them
Only kidding...seriously if a product is that good why shouldn't you sing it's praises.
Also does anyone do larger disks and calliper spacing brakets as a halfway measure for those of us who haven't got the readies for a full AP or Brembo kit?
Luke
Only kidding...seriously if a product is that good why shouldn't you sing it's praises.
Also does anyone do larger disks and calliper spacing brakets as a halfway measure for those of us who haven't got the readies for a full AP or Brembo kit?
Luke
29 November 1999, 04:05 PM
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Weaver - ring Hi Spec Motorsport near the Dartford Tunnel. Haven't got the number to hand but search through the BBS and you'll find it.
Their larger disks for standard calipers have a 28mm thickness which means relieving the 2-pot caliper slightly. But the extra metal means that they are less likely to crack.
Cheers
Dave
Their larger disks for standard calipers have a 28mm thickness which means relieving the 2-pot caliper slightly. But the extra metal means that they are less likely to crack.
Cheers
Dave
29 November 1999, 05:18 PM
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Weaver - they're larger in diameter as well. They're 330mm or thereabouts for 17in wheels and 315mm for 16s - but talk to Geof as the man says 'cos I've probably misremembered the diameters - but not by much.
Dave
Oh, and you can choose your own hole/groove pattern! I'd go for a couple of grooves and no holes (reduce friction area!).
Dave
Oh, and you can choose your own hole/groove pattern! I'd go for a couple of grooves and no holes (reduce friction area!).
30 November 1999, 09:49 PM
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He He....
That would give you <B>168 pot brakes!!!!</B>
You would be able to stop Soooo fast you would have time to go back and wave to yourself as you pulled off. 
I haven't had any E: Mails yet.
Mike.
[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 30-11-1999).]
That would give you <B>168 pot brakes!!!!</B>
You would be able to stop Soooo fast you would have time to go back and wave to yourself as you pulled off.
I haven't had any E: Mails yet.
Mike.
[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 30-11-1999).]
03 December 1999, 09:05 PM
#51
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Stef
I agree totaly with what you say.....i was just trying to keep things exciting!
I dont agree with you re ABS...but anyhow!
Happy braking and keep spamming Mike so you dont have to pay for the kit!
I agree totaly with what you say.....i was just trying to keep things exciting!
I dont agree with you re ABS...but anyhow!
Happy braking and keep spamming Mike so you dont have to pay for the kit!
04 December 1999, 12:12 AM
#52
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I have been in Stefs car with him and he is (generally speaking) braking in the correct places.
On the day (Donington)it was mainly dry, ABS cuts in when it senses an individual (single) wheel locking up.
Stef did not induce this for several reasons.
1) Very good car control skills.
2) Good planning and concentration which contributes greatly to the above.
3) A well set up and balanced (superior) brake kit.
4) Pad material used.
Stef had (Only) fast road/light track pads fitted. These are not overtly aggressive in operation giving maximum performance without loss of feel, so less likely to invite lock up which can be seen from higher friction pads.
Don't forget, if you are braking and bringing your ABS in, somewhere at one of the four corners, you have lost grip. That is the point that you don't want to reach anywhere really because it means you have lost control of what the car is doing.
ABS absolutely does not reduce braking distances and was never designed to.
J.
The method you describe in holding the brakes at just short of the lock up point is what Stef was doing. He never said it wouldn't come in..... He said it didn't!
ABS introduces a method of being able to stop the car at the best possible rate, (depending on how fast/advaced your ABS is), without loosing the ability to steer the car in some circumstances.
Particularly relevant in inclement, (wet/damp conditions). It is not a performance enhancement part unless you have little or no car control skills.
To my knowledge (?) it is not used in any field of competitive motorsport. The German Touring cars used to use it but I don't think they race any more?
ABS gives you a chance, that is all. On a public road 2 lanes, when a car pulls out in front of you it gives you the chance to slam the brakes on and pick where you think would be the safest (not least damaging) place you would like to end up.
i.e. the person see's you coming, stops, blocking your lane (common scenario) you then choose. (ABS working), should I steer to the right or the left to avoid him, that is all. It is not a 'get out of jail free' card. It doesn't benefit everybody, I know of people who have been in that exact scenario and froze.
They simply ploughed into the blocking vehicle, ABS banging away like mad.... they were so taken back with shock/surprise/panic that they simply forgot to steer out of the way!
Cadence braking, if you can manage to stay calm enough to apply it will do the same.
Mike.
On the day (Donington)it was mainly dry, ABS cuts in when it senses an individual (single) wheel locking up.
Stef did not induce this for several reasons.
1) Very good car control skills.
2) Good planning and concentration which contributes greatly to the above.
3) A well set up and balanced (superior)
brake kit. 4) Pad material used.
Stef had (Only) fast road/light track pads fitted. These are not overtly aggressive in operation giving maximum performance without loss of feel, so less likely to invite lock up which can be seen from higher friction pads.
Don't forget, if you are braking and bringing your ABS in, somewhere at one of the four corners, you have lost grip. That is the point that you don't want to reach anywhere really because it means you have lost control of what the car is doing.
ABS absolutely does not reduce braking distances and was never designed to.
J.
The method you describe in holding the brakes at just short of the lock up point is what Stef was doing. He never said it wouldn't come in..... He said it didn't!
ABS introduces a method of being able to stop the car at the best possible rate, (depending on how fast/advaced your ABS is), without loosing the ability to steer the car in some circumstances.
Particularly relevant in inclement, (wet/damp conditions). It is not a performance enhancement part unless you have little or no car control skills.
To my knowledge (?) it is not used in any field of competitive motorsport. The German Touring cars used to use it but I don't think they race any more?
ABS gives you a chance, that is all. On a public road 2 lanes, when a car pulls out in front of you it gives you the chance to slam the brakes on and pick where you think would be the safest (not least damaging) place you would like to end up.
i.e. the person see's you coming, stops, blocking your lane (common scenario) you then choose. (ABS working), should I steer to the right or the left to avoid him, that is all. It is not a 'get out of jail free' card. It doesn't benefit everybody, I know of people who have been in that exact scenario and froze.
They simply ploughed into the blocking vehicle, ABS banging away like mad.... they were so taken back with shock/surprise/panic that they simply forgot to steer out of the way!
Cadence braking, if you can manage to stay calm enough to apply it will do the same.
Mike.
04 December 1999, 12:26 AM
#53
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Mike..
I totally agree with you..
I was trying to point out that any after market (or original kit) should be able to induce locking...
Hence why I said about going 100 and slamming on the brakes.... you should still be able to get ABS to cut in though.... I also believed that the ABS system was linked into the vehicle speed sensor... *ho hum*
I have siad this many times before...my driving is crap... I should have got all my passengers to sign a no-liability form before they went out with me... lol
The unbalancing of my car was induced from the back lifting...and turning into bends... I was still braking while positioning for the turn..
The balance from the brakes....erm... that comes down to the brake biasing valve.. and the suspension...surely doubling the efficiency of the front brakes over standard will unbalance the car ? but anyways..
This thread will never end... lol
The AP kit is superb... from what I have heard (no offence - I have never been in a car fitted with your kit). I have been in other cars fitted with other AP kit though.... and you can see why they are so good
My personal opinion is that there wont be much difference between any top brake kit.... they are always so close... even on a track day..
the "differences" between the kits are the drivers, and the rest of the car...
If you put the brakes on a test bed...chances are they will have virtually the same characteristics...
Its good that you produce AP, it gives up (the customer) more choice...
Anyways... Off to break a scoob... lol
J.
I totally agree with you..
I was trying to point out that any after market (or original kit) should be able to induce locking...
Hence why I said about going 100 and slamming on the brakes.... you should still be able to get ABS to cut in though.... I also believed that the ABS system was linked into the vehicle speed sensor... *ho hum*
I have siad this many times before...my driving is crap... I should have got all my passengers to sign a no-liability form before they went out with me... lol
The unbalancing of my car was induced from the back lifting...and turning into bends... I was still braking while positioning for the turn..
The balance from the brakes....erm... that comes down to the brake biasing valve.. and the suspension...surely doubling the efficiency of the front brakes over standard will unbalance the car ? but anyways..
This thread will never end... lol
The AP kit is superb... from what I have heard (no offence - I have never been in a car fitted with your kit). I have been in other cars fitted with other AP kit though.... and you can see why they are so good
My personal opinion is that there wont be much difference between any top brake kit.... they are always so close... even on a track day..
the "differences" between the kits are the drivers, and the rest of the car...
If you put the brakes on a test bed...chances are they will have virtually the same characteristics...
Its good that you produce AP, it gives up (the customer) more choice...
Anyways... Off to break a scoob... lol
J.
04 December 1999, 11:04 AM
#54
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Stef..
In sunils absence... I will reply...
You are correct about ABS..kind of
But I believe what Sunil is trying to say is, that surely your brakes must have been good enough to bite the disks to cause ABS to come on ?
You are telling everyone that when driving fast and you slam on the brakes (HARD).. the AP kit doesnt bite enough to lock the wheels and cause ABS to come on , you just keep on travelling forward ?
I would rather have a kit where it can lock the wheels... and then I rely on the ABS.. there are times when locking is good.
The skill is to brake to the limit, just before the wheels lock.. in theory what the ABS is trying to do.. but it does it in the after stages (ie when the wheels have locked)... Once you have got to the limit (just before the wheels lock) you maintain that constant pressure on the brakes/wheels.... so that the pads are always in contact...and are applying maximum force onto the disks...but not enough to lock them. That is the most efficient controllable way of braking.
All the ABS cars I've been in, I've been able to gett he ABS to come on... Perhaps you might want to check your ABS system ?
Try it on a test track.... go really fast in a straight line.. and jump on the brakes... do your wheels lock ? does the ABS cut in ? your do the brakes still allow the wheels to turn ?
J. *flame me baby!!*
In sunils absence... I will reply...
You are correct about ABS..kind of
But I believe what Sunil is trying to say is, that surely your brakes must have been good enough to bite the disks to cause ABS to come on ?
You are telling everyone that when driving fast and you slam on the brakes (HARD).. the AP kit doesnt bite enough to lock the wheels and cause ABS to come on , you just keep on travelling forward ?
I would rather have a kit where it can lock the wheels... and then I rely on the ABS.. there are times when locking is good.
The skill is to brake to the limit, just before the wheels lock.. in theory what the ABS is trying to do.. but it does it in the after stages (ie when the wheels have locked)... Once you have got to the limit (just before the wheels lock) you maintain that constant pressure on the brakes/wheels.... so that the pads are always in contact...and are applying maximum force onto the disks...but not enough to lock them. That is the most efficient controllable way of braking.
All the ABS cars I've been in, I've been able to gett he ABS to come on... Perhaps you might want to check your ABS system ?
Try it on a test track.... go really fast in a straight line.. and jump on the brakes... do your wheels lock ? does the ABS cut in ? your do the brakes still allow the wheels to turn ?
J. *flame me baby!!*
04 December 1999, 12:04 PM
#55
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Sunilp.
Ref the ABS.......ask anyone. If the ABS is activated, the brakes are NOT performing at their peak efficiency wise as they're repeatedly hitting the discs rather than continually pressing against them.
As I understand it, ABS is purely a safety feature to enable you to continue to steer whilst braking hard rather than lock the wheels up.
Does anyone know if racing cars have ABS?
I would be surprised if they did.
Stef.
Ref the ABS.......ask anyone. If the ABS is activated, the brakes are NOT performing at their peak efficiency wise as they're repeatedly hitting the discs rather than continually pressing against them.
As I understand it, ABS is purely a safety feature to enable you to continue to steer whilst braking hard rather than lock the wheels up.
Does anyone know if racing cars have ABS?
I would be surprised if they did.
Stef.
04 December 1999, 02:18 PM
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Hi guys.
You are all correct in what you say.
I can bring on my ABS a lot easier on the public road as the surface is crap compared to the track.
It is only on these roads that I would ever want ABS to come on.
As Mike said, I was only using fast road/track pads at Donno with medium friction properties. Next time, if I use a race pad, the ABS may well be easier to engage, which will simply mean an adjustment in my braking style. It is therefore more dependant on what pad you are using rather than which kit, that determines how easily the ABS is activated.
I hate ABS, and feel uncomfortable when it comes on under non-emergency situations. I am still glad it is there though, just in case....
Stef.
PS J. Isn't making the rear of the car unstable what it's all about?
You are all correct in what you say.
I can bring on my ABS a lot easier on the public road as the surface is crap compared to the track.
It is only on these roads that I would ever want ABS to come on.
As Mike said, I was only using fast road/track pads at Donno with medium friction properties. Next time, if I use a race pad, the ABS may well be easier to engage, which will simply mean an adjustment in my braking style. It is therefore more dependant on what pad you are using rather than which kit, that determines how easily the ABS is activated.
I hate ABS, and feel uncomfortable when it comes on under non-emergency situations. I am still glad it is there though, just in case....
Stef.
PS J. Isn't making the rear of the car unstable what it's all about?
04 December 1999, 08:09 PM
#57
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I have been told that i use my brakes too hard on all my cars....my driving is crap and i just like to keep things interesting!
I am only using the std Brembo pads in my setup.
As has been said already, all the tops kits are probably fairly close in terms of performance.
Stef, you are my hero....i worship your driving skills as listed above......please show me the light.
I am only using the std Brembo pads in my setup.
As has been said already, all the tops kits are probably fairly close in terms of performance.
Stef, you are my hero....i worship your driving skills as listed above......please show me the light.
13 December 1999, 02:16 PM
#58
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Going back to the eight piston calipers. I think you will find Foggy does not use these. The only difference this year is the way they are monted to the bike. The bolts go straight down though the caliper the same way as the bracket and not from the side, (I forget the term they use.) Idea is it give more feel and less fade. Looks dead strange.
Remember these have to be homogolated for road use.
Remember these have to be homogolated for road use.