As some of you know, the one thing about my car that I cannot stand is the standard brakes performance, especially at track days.
I have looked at installing a 'temporary' infil (Gp N discs, etc) to get me through the winter, after which I was hoping to uprgrade to a full Brembo kit
However...
ScoobyMania have been in direct talks with AP Racing for some time now, and as a result AP are currently developing a bespoke kit for the Impreza, which ScoobyMania will have exclusive rights to.
Unlike AP kits currently available from other sources, this will be the ONLY kit designed solely for the car by AP in this country.
As my desire for greater braking performance is well known, they have very kindly asked me to test this new kit for them at Donington next Saturday. AP are casting new discs as we speak (which apparently are of the same grade used by Indy Cars, (gulp!)), and the kit will hopefully be fited by AP themselves next Thursday or Friday.
It comprises of 4-pot calipers, grooved discs, braided hoses and AP's own fluid.
This will be the first time I have driven a car equipped with such a kit, and I intend to take full advantage of this oppurtunity.
Having been round Cadwell Park with Pete's mad Brembo equipped S600BY S, they are still very firmly placed at the top of my wanted list.
I will let everyone know (although most of you will see for yourself!) how I get on with the kit, but I will be unable to offer a direct comparison to any other kits as I have not driven any cars equipped with them, and being a passenger does not entitle me to comment.
I am very grateful for this oppurtunity, and would like to thank those involved for offering it to me. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif
Now I'm looking forward to Donno even more, if that's possible!!!!!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif
Roll on the 20th.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 12-11-1999).]

Lucky *******.

The big question...

What size wheels do these brakes require ?

A big selling point of Pete's is that 17" are NOT required (unlike the prodrive kit)

Yeah I'd be interested in what size disk's they'll be fitting too. Are you going to need 17's to clear them 'cos that's gonna make it f'kin expensive...

Stef, how much is this kit likly to cost?

Stef -
If you see Richard at AP say Hi from Paul Wilson. You will not be able to miss him he's the one with the HUGE amount of orange curly hair http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif
Chances are he is the guy who organised the brakes for you. Top bloke if a bit of a nutter.

Hi guys.

The kit I am testing will be the kit for standard 16" wheels as that is what I have.
A larger kit will also be available though.
As I am soon intending to get 17" wheels but use my standard ones for track days, the smaller (but not small!) kit is my preferred choice anyway.
I have no idea on prices, that it something Scoobymania will have to tell you themselves when they have finalised things.

Paul.
If I see him I'll do that!

See you all soon.

Stef.

Hi all..

Not putting a dampener on Scoobymania (AP) or Scoobysport (Brembo).. But when they imply custom kits... They are just normally referring to the brackets for the caliper...and perhaps the centre hibs for the disks...

the disks themselves..and the calipers are generic ones which are used on other cars... AP do have an impectable background...

I thought the AP was going to be 6pot ? or is that just the larger kit ?

J.

ps - Floating ? or isnt it required ?

Firefox is mistaken in his interpretation of the AP kit designed for the Impreza unless they have changed the spec without me knowing!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Unlike other AP kits, this a kit that has been specced up in partnership with AP and not a case of, "We'll have that caliper with that disk please."

It is specifically designed to fit the std Impreza 16" wheel.

There is a disk for 17" wheels and as with all kits we need to know the make and type of wheel you have to ensure the spokes do not clash with the calipers.

We have a template that shows whether it will or not for a hands on survey and access to AP's database for remote enquiries.

We will be offering several kits that include full race kits and no, we don't expect to sell many but I'm sure somebody will need a gravel spec kit somewhere!

4 pots is expected to be the main seller as fitted to Stef's car and 6 pots will be available as well.

The 6 pot will provide more stopping power than a 4 pot. If you look inside the caliper of a 6 pot you will see different sized pistons that prevent any pad distortion and so guarantee their integrity.

Stef was not quite correct to say that they are the same specs the Indy cars but they are made from the same castings.

All other advertising and specs will be on the website that will be up on Monday, albeit still being constructed.

Kind regards

Ben

Benny...

So the calipers are custom made for yourselves by AP...as well as the actual disks? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

I would have thought (my interpretation) was that just the brackets and hubs were made for the impreza (yourselves).

Yes..AP will be putting together the kits exclusively for you... but I dont think they would design complete new hardware for you..

Like I said.. I wasnt referring to any specific company...so just forget it... lol

J.

[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 13-11-1999).]

Stef.

Are ScoobyMania also going to let you 'try out' a Possum Link ECU? Your laps be 'wild' if they did http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif (Am I still up for a ride?)

Benny / Fiefox

I can say that all previous AP Racing kits for road cars are made up by looking to see what calipers will fit from the designs on hand and mating them to a suitable disc.
As has been said a bracket is then designed to attach the caliper to the car.

This is by no means to say that this is in any way inferior, calipers are EXTREMELY complex to design.

Various Credits for AP Racing road car dept include

Lotus Elise - Metal Matrix discs http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif
Bentley Continental R / T
Aston Martin DB7 (proposed GT version with bodykit)
Ford Galaxy - Yep! the ones that that armed response police use. Apparantly after 3 ish hard stops fully loaded from 80 ish mph the brakes were utterly shot http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif Worth thinking about if you are after "the safest MPV"

I am at somewhat of a loss as to how a 6 pot setup will provide more stopping power than a 4 pot setup?

The amount of stopping power is governed by the force applied and the coefficent of friction.

A 6 pot setup would allow the use of a narrower braking area and larger bells which would reduce the unsprung weight but on the sort of wheel size that we are using then I dont see that playing much of a part in it.

The only other way would be to alter the brake bias so that more of the braking force applied by the foot would be sent to the front disks. A problem that people with ABS will get is that the rear wheels will lock up well before the fronts because of the weight transfer except because they have ABS they wont know this and the cars potential stopping distance will be extended because the ABS system has cut in.

Virtually all high performance brake kits use different size pistons front to rear to equalize brake pad wear.

Just for the record I am a Brembo user.

Darren

Darren.
I guess touring car AP calipers have EIGHT pots for a reason though eh? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif
As I inderstand it, the larger the disc, the more 'pots' are needed to maintain braking efficiency.
Four pots on discs that touring cars use would obviously be less efficient than the four pots on your discs.
As the Brembo kit exists for use by people with any size wheel (ie no larger kit is available) four pots are enough.
If they were to offer a larger conversion, it may well have six pots.
Pete?

David.
I for one am of the opinion that my car, certainly not at the moment, requires any electronic mods to the engine.
I am very happy with the performance of my car, and have no ambitions to have 'The most powerful UK turbo', as some other people may have.
I am quite content with 'The most powerful UK turbo with a standard ECU' award! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif (But I'm sure someone will prove me wrong on that!)
After brakes, some suspension gizmos (anti-lift kit, anti-sway bars, bushes,etc) will be next.
When my warranty runs out though, and longevity of products has been proven, I may change my mind http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 14-11-1999).]

Cheers for that PC!
I don't suppose you'd care to divulge these persons identities would you? You know, just so I can......errrrmm....thank them, and their cars!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif
I'm hoping Benny & co will get good feedback as opposed to 'blame' though!
Besides, 30 or 40 laps? I intend to be out there forever, stopping only for passengers and fuel. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif
See you at Donno.
Are you bringing S600BY S or your Gp N car?

Stef The 'Don't Give Him Good Brakes' Killer

Braking effect is also governed by size of disk - the furthur from the centre of the disk the larger the leverage effect. If a 6-pot is properly designed then the advantage over a 4-pt is (same size disk) that the braking area can be narrower (but the same area) but more is concentrated nearer the outer edge of the disk.

That's the theory anyway.....

Dave

Stef

You are quite right, AP (and Brembo) do have 8 pot calipers for a reason... it's so they can use four pads per caliper ( as opposed to the standard two pads).

The "leading" two pads have their co-efficient of friction optimised at a lower temperature than the "trailing" pair of pads. The trailing pads are glowing red hot in competition and if just one pad was used, it would not survive the heat build up along the extended pad length.

This technology has been on Shuey's car and Foggy's bike for the last two years.


Ben/Mike

Nice to see you guys taking Impreza brakes seriously. Is the disc set up fully floating or fixed? Warranty... full 12 month road and track use? 24 month fluid? Which pads? How much?

There... a competitor giving you the oppurtunity to tell all http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Several people had asked me not to give Stef the chance of staying out for 30 or 40 lap stints... so you'll get the blame now http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Cheers Pete.

I will temporarily steer clear of the 4 pot 6 pot issue for now http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

The Impreza brake system will use fixed discs and for many technical reasons we do not anticipate that changing in the foreseeable future.

I actually had a caliper off of Mika Hakkinens F1 car in my hand while in the workshop.


We will establish warranty limits when we have know exactly what kit is being fitted and to what use it is being put to though all will come with at least 12 months warranty.

Any kit supplied where track use is specified will be covered under the warranty as long as people do not use non approved pads with them.

AP brake fluid will come as standard if a 'kit' is purchased, Pads, yet again this will be established with any potential purchaser after they have been spoken to.

There will be a range of pads for use with the kits including AP (of course) Carbon Metallic, Mintex Etc. Each will be applied for specific purpose.

You will I hope appreciate that we are not in a position to make sweeping statements about anything yet as we want to satisfy ourselves that the right options are being considered at each stage, hence Stefs involvement at Donington.

We have world class technical backup with AP Racing and while we already have a good idea of what should be, we are using their extensive technical experience to 'assist' us in defining equipment, set-up compatability and usage limitations.

Prices will be relevant to what specific kit is chosen for any particular kit, we will be publishing (imminently) prices for designed kits to suit particular driving styles when we are happy with the equipment used in each kit.

Hope that has answered a few of your questions.

Any further details, just E Mail myself

I'm bringing S600BY S, as I'm going straight from Donington down to Wales, for the Rally of GB.

The RA is in gravel trim, although I have got some tarmac spec Leda's for track days and the odd bit of black stuff rallying.

Easy Mr Tuckwood!
I've only got 251bhp you know!
I can feel the guns taking aim at me already! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/redface.gif
Not th-that I'm a-f-fraid or anyth-th-thing of c-c-course.... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

S-S-St-t-t-tef.

PS Pete, does it feel the same to drive?
PPS David, the ride's still there, although it may be a bit wilder than any I've given before!!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 15-11-1999).]

Sounds good Mike. Keep us updated. Need a distributor for South East Asia? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Interested M.

I was given the opportunity to visit Ralliart Europes HQ in Rugby yesterday, and had a tour round the workshops.
I noticed that the rally EVO's use AP calipers, not the Brembo's of the road car. Any ideas why this would be? Is it because AP brakes are considered too 'good' to be used as standard on the production car?

Confused Stef.

The rally team want the best
Mitsubishi want the best price? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Interestingly Ralliart the rally team are not the same company as Ralliart/Mitsubishi.
They are a British company paid to compete with the cars, and design build them etc.

MMMMM not many people know that http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

For the low down on how this kit performed, have a look at

I have the 16" AP racing kit (304mm drilled disk set - from Demon T's) with ZX pads.
I will say they are excellent. Much better pedal feel and absolutely no fade.

I'm actually looking to get a spare set of pads - know anyone who does a good price?

Hodge

[This message has been edited by Hodge (edited 22-11-1999).]

Just been talking with a friend.
Allegedly six-pot callipers mean more pedal travel when braking.
Any comments?

Bajie - not necessarily! It all depends on the volume of fluid being pumped. For example, comparing the 2-pot sliding calipers with the STi 4-pots, if the pistons in the caliper are the same diameter then the volume of fluid being pumped *should* be the same as the 4-pots. Why? The 2-pots have to push the brake pad the same distance onto the disk BUT this then has to pull the other pad over - so the total travel is the same.

With a 6-pot, if each cylinder is smaller in diameter than a 4-pot then the volume of fluid being pumped could be the same - so no increase in travel.

That's the theory - not sure how it work sout in practice though. But it seems to be one of those questions where the amswer is 'it depnds on...'.

Dave

PS: I'm sure if I'm talking out of the back of my head then someone will tell us...

Bajie.

In the six-pot AP set-up. the three pistons on each side are all of different diameters, with the largest at the rear to exert more pressure and keep even pressure overall.
Looks superb and works even better!
The best way to firm pedal feel is to fit a brake master cylinder support bracket, which Scoobymania have now started to market.
If you get someone to step on your brakes whilst you look under the bonnet you'll see how much this master cylinder moves. I couldn't believe it.

Stef.

How much better are these and Brembo than the Subaru 4 pot with decent pads?
I've seen comments about smoking brakes, but this tends to be standard pads.
All the Group N rally cars use the Suby 4 pots, so they can't be that bad can they?
Or do they use different disks?

Has anyone gone from STI 4 pots with racing pads to AP / Brembo?

I'm sure they're better, but how often would you need the difference?


I do a few track days and often run out of brakes, even on a mountain run on public roads, but I'm waiting to place my order for an MY01 WRX and don't want to shell out the money for after market brakes if the standard brakes on a MY01 can be made to work with decent pads. There's also the issue of the cost of replacement rotors when they wear out.

Geoff (Australia -Victoria Impreza WRX club)

Geoff.

In my opinion, if you do any track days then you've got to upgrade your brakes from even the Subaru 4-pots, as they're simply just not large enough!
Gp N discs and decent pads will make a small difference, but I'm not sure how they perform on track for long periods.
Invest in a set of brakes like the AP kit I've been testing, you simply will not believe the difference and you'll wish you'd of always had them.

Stef.