Sam Elassar

hi adam
if you fit a FMIC intercooler you have to get a certain amount of lag. now the fact you can't feel it is because it is very small combined with the fact oyou have a 2.2l engine. if you notice on this board that most people that fitted the APS kit did not report getting any lag at all. so can you believe them ?. as far as i am concerned i have data logged the before and after i got the intercooler fitted, have you done that ? oryou are going with what you feel, kind of thing.

so what is lag, ism't it the time it takes the turbo to spool up to fuel boost, roughly? after mapping the car for the FMIC i am getting 1.25bar by 3.5k revs using a vf23. this is the same what i used to get before the i fitted the intercooler, so now i am getting almost no difference in lag.

i have not doubt that the pace kit is good but so far the temps you are getting are far too high unless you got them sorted out.

Adam M

Sam.

The longer inlet tract that a greater volume needs to be pressurised before the engine can produce some serious power. I was pointing out that without adjustment to the map (jecs) there was no need to combat any lag, as it isn't there. I am sure your perfect map has removed any lap you might have had.

On top of this, you simply cannot compare temps across cars as you cannot know what is going on before the intercooler.

The only way to compare intercoolers is to measure and compare efficiency. This can only be done by having temperature probes before and after the intercooler and calculating based on what you read. (I will be doing this).

Even then there is no guarantee of the accuracy of the gauges or of my calculation .

Also, this was not a mine is better than yours post, its just there are features of the pace which I prefer simply as a result of being able to make suggestions during the development process, such as having bosses built into the aluminium pipe work before and after the intercooler, and in the end cans of the rad, to measure its efficiency too, and enable easy fitment of all the gauges we like to employ. Plus it also comes ready prepared with bosses for water injection, downstream of the temperature sensors, and perfectly placed just before the intercooler.

Phase 2 (hopefully final) is complete and will be picked up today . The rad is about 18% bigger, 2 fans both far more capable than standard are included, dump valve relocated to reduce system volume further, air filter now right next to ait inlet allows a straight pipe coming from the intercooler up the left hand side of the engine before bending round to the throttle body. There is also talk of an optional power steering cooler sitting above the rad, but I am not sure how useful this would be for me as I dont tend to go on track.

Most importantly, the two right angle bends which appeared to be unnecessarily restrictive have been repaleced with nice 45 degree bends. I am not sure how important this will be as on the standard map, it was achieving the same boost it always did but there is no harm.

Sam, is there anyway you can measure efficiency too? that would be very helpful. I havent been able to datalog, as I dont have a serial link, nor a laptop. I know tere are things amiss however as my injectors seem to be running 99% at 5000 rpm , but also a good thing I suppose.

When I believe it to be ruuning properly, I think I wil take your advice. But there are other mods to arrange such as water injection and headers before it is worth remapping/tuning depending on bobs terminology.

StephenDone

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jimbob2:
<B>Stephen,
off topic I know, but as a fellow C&W man, I'll have to agree that the insurance is fantastic, albeit golden handcuffs.

I'm running a p1 at present, and a 23 year old guy wh works with me in Enterprise is running an RS4 - £7000 if he leaves.

I wouldn't be recommending working for C&W at the moment though.

Head for DI if you're after the job security!

J

[/quote]

Are you Brentford C&W ?
What's DI ?

Steve

Digital Island. Doh !

[This message has been edited by StephenDone (edited 07 September 2001).]

Sam Elassar

hi adam
i know what you mean, and i did not miss understand you at all. i was not saying that my intercooler is better than yours, chat. but what i am saying is that with a little bit of time and effort you can get a very good package out of that aps intercooler and filter. i have told you this before the pipe work on the pace version looks very good indeed, so i am tempted to try to sort out something similar. my radiator is good for road use but for track it has proved a bit suspect so i may end up having to get a pace uprated item anyway. if the intercooler is working as it should you should not really need WI it defeats the purpose !! does not it ? last time on track i had my passenger look at my inlet temp gauge and i was getting 42 degrees spiking to 43 at the end of the straights, so i would not even benefit anything from WI.

plus if i had a 22b i would not want to mess around with that expensive bumper!!!

data logging is the business and i am looking forward to see what the new chip has to offer in the way of data logging. however i have been so busy lately to even attempt to fit and map it .

BTW the map will never be perfect there is always some room for improvement somewhere


looking forward to see how you get on anyway.

sam
ps do the headers they get things even better

R19KET

Sam,

You mention WI, and 22b bumpers, are you mixing up WI, and water spray ?

Water spray may only reduce the temps of a FMIC by a few deg's, but it all helps. WI is another story.

Mark.

Sam Elassar

hi mark
i can sometimes confuse my own **** so sorry to confuse you. i meant that you don't need to modify the Front bumper for the pace kit, or at least that what i thought.

as for WI injection, i was advised that i will not gain much from it with my existing set up as my inlet temps are quite low anyway. unless of course you use it to add more timing as a det inhibitor kind of device.

sam

Adam M

sam, you have hit the nail on the head.

WI is for det prevention, water spray is for additional cooling.

If water injection is reducing your charge temps then it is not working as efficiently as it should be. Ideally it should remain as fine water mist for as long as possible so that it evaoprates as close as possible (time wise) to the explosion. This will reduce charge energy and flame front velocity therby reducing likelihood of det and also temperature in cylinder post explosion. On the whole causing the engine to run cooler.

You seem to already know that it allows more advance and hence more power if you want it.

Funnily rnough the pipe work was the worst part of the pace system. As detailed above, it is now much improved.

Revised flow has reduced restiction, and am now holding .1 bar more. This means if I drop boost target turbo does less work to generate same boost as before, therefore should run cooler. which is

Dont know if you can adapt aps to run with this style pipework but worth a shot. New rad is in with both fans, have no idea of the water temps, but I am hopeful. It is quite substantial.

Am thinking the aps cold air thing might well be an excellent idea. Will have to speak to craig on that one, since it neates engine bay muchly.

GavinP

Adam,

You might want to also consider a Green "Twister" filter or Pipercross "Viper" filter - these are both shielded cone filters but are located in the engine bay. Both companies sell ducting to connect to the inlet.

I spend a couple of hours today fitting a Green filter in place of the exposed Pipercross filter that I had. When driving along, it is hard to measure intake differences so far but when parking up after a "spirited" drive, the inlet temperature (post IC) was 10 degrees C cooler than the underbonnet temp

I've run the ducting right up to the front bumper which will just fit through the hole into the wing to feed the filter.

Adam M

My temps seem great now.

very consistent with what i would expect.

mid 30s at max boost, but still need second thermocouple to see hwta is happeing before turbo. Also need more accurate measure of ambient too!

New pipe work has made several differences.

Looks much neater.

There may be some piccies flying round but I havent taken any.

Shorter.

Great arrangement of bosses for temp measuring

With no other mods, seems to be holding 1.4 bar now instead of 1.3 bar. This is due to pipework being far less restrictive.

Dont know why but I am now seeing only 1 degree above ambient at cruise, whereas before lowest was three (except when raining).

The best part is the moved dumpvalve which is now attached directly to the main throttle body pipe. It no longer has its own feed. Instead it has a longer pipe after the valve, whch vents to the original dump valve location. This has had the effect of silencing the dump valve so that it is almost inaudible. I love this, as it was getting tiring. If I still wanted the sound, I could block off the inlet pipe, and dump to atmos.

All i all, am very pleased with the work done, and will be needing to add more fuel to compensate, so I will be needing anopther tune! All these mods in stages much be driving poor Bob mad.