STI 8 Tuning Path
Chris
A little info about Adam's engine, just so you are not in the dark, http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000495.html
With regard to Matt, i dont think you have upset him in a different life
, i think he was right in that you did appear to change the target figure.
I personally dont believe you should go from A to Z in one big step, you should take your time and find out what parts suit you and your car. Yes you may have to replace uprated parts that you already have done, but so what!, its part of the fun, and besdes you can sell the old stuff on usually. If you go from A to Z, what bench marks do you have to compare against things from a previous setup?
When i was looking at my path last year, i nearly bought an APS turbo, but did not as there was not enough information and soild proof about the turbos then, and i personally feel that their still isnt today.
To me, my hardest choice was the ECU, which i ultimately opted for the link, as it was a proven package, but most importantly, would give me the facility to modify the map myself (not that i have yet). I nearly stayed with the factory ecu, but subsequent remap costs put me off, and this is on a MY00 by the way, but was happy i made the right decision for me in the end.
An ECU is a very expensive part of the process IMO, and should not be taken lightly. However, in the last year the advancement of the Ecutek tuners has been great, and on that basis i would be suggesting staying with the standard ecu to at least 400 on the STI8, as that is what i would do, if i were in that position.
Then, after that level of tune, i would be looking at something else, nothing scientific there, just my thoughts and feelings.
RSVR is right no matter who you speak to in the tuning world they all have their different views, a lot of the time they dont listen to what you are saying and consequently do not provide an appropriate option for your requirements. This is not a critism of you BTW, as i have never dealt with your firm personally, so i am not in a position to comment. Neither is it a critism of most of the respected tuners who post on here, especially the ones i have used, as they all offered unbiased views with regards to my tuning path.
When you start throwing money about like RSVR is, then some companies will latch onto that fact, and supply goods that spend that money, not supply goods that fullfil the users requirements.
I stand by my comment in another thread, and that is for RSVR to actually go in as many different cars as he can, i know the STi8 will be hard, as there wont be that many about that are "tuned", but you should get an idea from some of the Sti7's.
Waffling again
, RSVR, remember it is what you want and what you will be happy with in the end!
Steven
A little info about Adam's engine, just so you are not in the dark, http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000495.html
With regard to Matt, i dont think you have upset him in a different life
, i think he was right in that you did appear to change the target figure.I personally dont believe you should go from A to Z in one big step, you should take your time and find out what parts suit you and your car. Yes you may have to replace uprated parts that you already have done, but so what!, its part of the fun, and besdes you can sell the old stuff on usually. If you go from A to Z, what bench marks do you have to compare against things from a previous setup?
When i was looking at my path last year, i nearly bought an APS turbo, but did not as there was not enough information and soild proof about the turbos then, and i personally feel that their still isnt today.
To me, my hardest choice was the ECU, which i ultimately opted for the link, as it was a proven package, but most importantly, would give me the facility to modify the map myself (not that i have yet). I nearly stayed with the factory ecu, but subsequent remap costs put me off, and this is on a MY00 by the way, but was happy i made the right decision for me in the end.
An ECU is a very expensive part of the process IMO, and should not be taken lightly. However, in the last year the advancement of the Ecutek tuners has been great, and on that basis i would be suggesting staying with the standard ecu to at least 400 on the STI8, as that is what i would do, if i were in that position.
Then, after that level of tune, i would be looking at something else, nothing scientific there, just my thoughts and feelings.
RSVR is right no matter who you speak to in the tuning world they all have their different views, a lot of the time they dont listen to what you are saying and consequently do not provide an appropriate option for your requirements. This is not a critism of you BTW, as i have never dealt with your firm personally, so i am not in a position to comment. Neither is it a critism of most of the respected tuners who post on here, especially the ones i have used, as they all offered unbiased views with regards to my tuning path.
When you start throwing money about like RSVR is, then some companies will latch onto that fact, and supply goods that spend that money, not supply goods that fullfil the users requirements.
I stand by my comment in another thread, and that is for RSVR to actually go in as many different cars as he can, i know the STi8 will be hard, as there wont be that many about that are "tuned", but you should get an idea from some of the Sti7's.
Waffling again
, RSVR, remember it is what you want and what you will be happy with in the end!Steven
I'll be in touch in a few weeks when money allows.
My own first hand experience and information FWIW.
In February 02 when my car was standard apart from a K+N panel and Revolution 3" down pipe and complete 3" system I fitted an APS cold air kit. It was a cold Sunday morning and on starting, the car would not run under load satisfactorily. Plenty time was given to warm up but there was bad hesitation around 3k and again around7k + rpm. I did a run thinking I might clear a fouled plug and was trying to work out what it might be. This included taking it to the red line, WOT, in third twice. I heard a rasp which lasted for only a second and returned home after 11mls total.I knew from the ticking noise that a piston had picked up the bore.
At the time I was shocked that fitting the CAK could alter mixture to the point that no. 2 piston had picked up the bore.
After rebuild the car was driven carefully for a few weeks and Bob Rawle fitted a Link which did away with the mass airflow sensor.
I stayed with the CAK and the car progressed in power but I felt that there was a lack of breating over 6.5k. On 15 March 03 the car produced 415bhp at G-Force. I changed the air filter, got rid of the APS CAK and Tristan Pye built me a cold air box to segregate the filter which is now in the engine bay. On 5 April the car produced 434bhp on the same rollers.Bob Rawle then spent time mapping the new set up and on 11th April the car produced 450bhp and 375ft/lbs at G-Force. The next day at Power Engineering the car did 443bhp and 375ft/lbs in front of the audience at the Southern Rolling Road Day.(All this was at 1.8 bar)
The K+N on the APS CAK was rated @450cfm. The replacement is 754cfm according to APS. It is 9 1/2" long and 5" parallel diameter. Getting rid of the APS pipework greatly shortened the inlet tract and got rid of a 90deg tight bend but importantly cold air breathing is retained.
If someone e-mails me per profile on how to post pictures on here I will get a couple of shots of the existing set up.
I feel strongly that APS should have a warning with their CAK pointing out clearly the potential dangers in fitting these kits to cars still relying on a M.A.F.
In February 02 when my car was standard apart from a K+N panel and Revolution 3" down pipe and complete 3" system I fitted an APS cold air kit. It was a cold Sunday morning and on starting, the car would not run under load satisfactorily. Plenty time was given to warm up but there was bad hesitation around 3k and again around7k + rpm. I did a run thinking I might clear a fouled plug and was trying to work out what it might be. This included taking it to the red line, WOT, in third twice. I heard a rasp which lasted for only a second and returned home after 11mls total.I knew from the ticking noise that a piston had picked up the bore.
At the time I was shocked that fitting the CAK could alter mixture to the point that no. 2 piston had picked up the bore.
After rebuild the car was driven carefully for a few weeks and Bob Rawle fitted a Link which did away with the mass airflow sensor.
I stayed with the CAK and the car progressed in power but I felt that there was a lack of breating over 6.5k. On 15 March 03 the car produced 415bhp at G-Force. I changed the air filter, got rid of the APS CAK and Tristan Pye built me a cold air box to segregate the filter which is now in the engine bay. On 5 April the car produced 434bhp on the same rollers.Bob Rawle then spent time mapping the new set up and on 11th April the car produced 450bhp and 375ft/lbs at G-Force. The next day at Power Engineering the car did 443bhp and 375ft/lbs in front of the audience at the Southern Rolling Road Day.(All this was at 1.8 bar)
The K+N on the APS CAK was rated @450cfm. The replacement is 754cfm according to APS. It is 9 1/2" long and 5" parallel diameter. Getting rid of the APS pipework greatly shortened the inlet tract and got rid of a 90deg tight bend but importantly cold air breathing is retained.
If someone e-mails me per profile on how to post pictures on here I will get a couple of shots of the existing set up.
I feel strongly that APS should have a warning with their CAK pointing out clearly the potential dangers in fitting these kits to cars still relying on a M.A.F.
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Cheers Harvey - my sentiments exactly. We run a slightly larger BMC filter on the 400 cars - not the small K&N (which I'm not impressed with either). To run more than 400bhp we will be changing to a different turbo and inlet system, but have found the SR40 package to be good for all round drivability. 400bhp, 360 ib-ft, 1.6 bar at 3900 rpm, peak power at 1.3 bar - on Optimax.
We're trying to move away from special one-off projects to make decent power. We have to look at the commercial aspect to ensure enough people will buy the parts available. Its healthy to have different routes to engine tuning so if someone opts for different turbos etc. its not the end of the world, just bear in mind everything is a compromise.
If enough people were serious about big bhp, APS have an entirely different EJ20 block. The oil galleries ar routed differently - to look after ALL the big-end bearings FIRST. They also have machined inserts to convert open and semi-closed decks to closed decks. All of these parts have been developed from their racing programs, but aren't available to the public yet as we have to commit to orders of 20+ which becomes expensive - particularly when people think they want lots of power and agree to purchase parts - then back down at the last minute. New inlet manifolds are in production aswell - can't give details till after SEMA - but some big bhp numbers are just around the corner.
There are many ways to go about it, but decent engine tuning follows some very simple rules. The engine is an air pump at the end of the day - nothing more. Everything you do to make the system more efficient will produce more power. I'm not surprised 400bhp has not been achieved with an SR40 previously in this country. If the induction/intercooler/exhaust is not perfect then the turbocharger will not produce the results. On the other hand, if we have extracted the most from this turbo - then our next set-up should extract the most from any turbo. Time will tell....
Chris
We're trying to move away from special one-off projects to make decent power. We have to look at the commercial aspect to ensure enough people will buy the parts available. Its healthy to have different routes to engine tuning so if someone opts for different turbos etc. its not the end of the world, just bear in mind everything is a compromise.
If enough people were serious about big bhp, APS have an entirely different EJ20 block. The oil galleries ar routed differently - to look after ALL the big-end bearings FIRST. They also have machined inserts to convert open and semi-closed decks to closed decks. All of these parts have been developed from their racing programs, but aren't available to the public yet as we have to commit to orders of 20+ which becomes expensive - particularly when people think they want lots of power and agree to purchase parts - then back down at the last minute. New inlet manifolds are in production aswell - can't give details till after SEMA - but some big bhp numbers are just around the corner.
There are many ways to go about it, but decent engine tuning follows some very simple rules. The engine is an air pump at the end of the day - nothing more. Everything you do to make the system more efficient will produce more power. I'm not surprised 400bhp has not been achieved with an SR40 previously in this country. If the induction/intercooler/exhaust is not perfect then the turbocharger will not produce the results. On the other hand, if we have extracted the most from this turbo - then our next set-up should extract the most from any turbo. Time will tell....
Chris
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A good healthy debate developing here.....
My main aim after early discussions with John Banks was to do the 1st stage of my requirements (required HP or Torque)in one hit on the basis of it being more cost effective in the long run. i.e. buy all the right parts, bolt them all on followed by one mapping session. I really don't want the hassle of trial & error and having to replace parts for a second time to improve things which is why I asked the experienced tuners which items are the best. There have been some very good thoughts / approaches posted on here as to which route to take re: the various componants but there still appears to be a large cloud over which intake system to use and whether that Ideal system actaully exists or whether its just better to fabricate one from several parts to achieve the best results. ECU's are definitely the hot topic and I was merely stating above that the GEMS unit appears to be (from the information I have discovered so far) the best value for money at £1595 fully mapped against the likes of Motech(outright price) & continuous remaps using ECUTEK.
My main aim after early discussions with John Banks was to do the 1st stage of my requirements (required HP or Torque)in one hit on the basis of it being more cost effective in the long run. i.e. buy all the right parts, bolt them all on followed by one mapping session. I really don't want the hassle of trial & error and having to replace parts for a second time to improve things which is why I asked the experienced tuners which items are the best. There have been some very good thoughts / approaches posted on here as to which route to take re: the various componants but there still appears to be a large cloud over which intake system to use and whether that Ideal system actaully exists or whether its just better to fabricate one from several parts to achieve the best results. ECU's are definitely the hot topic and I was merely stating above that the GEMS unit appears to be (from the information I have discovered so far) the best value for money at £1595 fully mapped against the likes of Motech(outright price) & continuous remaps using ECUTEK.
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From: 32 cylinders and many cats
To the chap asking about 300 BHP.... go for the PPP IMHO, but then you already have exhaust bits and are not keen, best thing is to get an ECU remap and fuel pump. Scoobysport do postal maps I think.
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Very Useful. I have been following this thread closely as am looking to upgrade my STI 8. Scooby sport look to have a good option for £1760. ECU remap and scooby sport exhaust giving 340BHP. Looks better value than the PPP, has anyone tried this option?
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I have an sti8 with just PPP and I find the turbolag very frustrating. Once I'm at 4k it opens up beautifully but I must say the ppp is disappointing at anything below that. Has anyone else found this? What's the next stage? I don't want to spend fortunes but could do a few hundred quid. TIA.
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David W, can we pick up on discussion we were having, my email forwarding from London isnt working, not sure if you replied to previous email. please try conrad_bradley@yahoo.com. Cheers
[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/5/2003 3:44:06 PM]
[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/5/2003 3:51:34 PM]
[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/5/2003 3:44:06 PM]
[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/5/2003 3:51:34 PM]
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Update:
FMIC has arrived
Turbo has arrived
High flow outlet arrived
Up pipe arrived
All to be fitted next week except turbo, waiting for the injectors to arrive from the USA....
Watch this space
FMIC has arrived
Turbo has arrived
High flow outlet arrived
Up pipe arrived
All to be fitted next week except turbo, waiting for the injectors to arrive from the USA....
Watch this space
Thread Starter
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Warranty wasn't an issue as its one of these EU imports and has an "insurance type warranty". As for F!*&king the car, that's why I have asked the guys on here who know there stuff what products to buy in order to get my requirement HP in a reliable fashion.
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From: north east
didnt mean it like that rsvr, i dont doubt for a minute that all the listed products are fantastic and superb reliabillity, what would concern me is one of those 1 in a million situations where sommit simple goes wrong leading to sommit expensive, i wouldnt want to void my warrenty an have subaru stump me for a massive bill, only reason i say this is cos i used to have a beemer, blew the engine, i had invalidated my warrenty, thye wouldnt do **** so it cost me over 3k to put right, allot of heartachea and hassle, wouldnt wish that on anyone.
BUT, like u said, if its an import, it dont matter do it lolol
so good luck an i hope you get the package you want
paul
BUT, like u said, if its an import, it dont matter do it lolol
so good luck an i hope you get the package you want
paul
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No worries Paul. If I did have Subaru warranty then I probably would have waited before doing excessive mods, maybe would have got the PPP to retain it, but I dont think it would have lasted long lol because I like tinkering.....
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Read somewhere on this Forum that the PPP for the STI 8 is now 320bhp!
I rang Subaru technical up to check this point as its quite important to have all the facts if you are considering invalidating your warrranty.
Subaru technical its NOT true. The PPP for the STI 8 uprates the engine to 300bhp and this is not due to change either.
I rang Subaru technical up to check this point as its quite important to have all the facts if you are considering invalidating your warrranty.
Subaru technical its NOT true. The PPP for the STI 8 uprates the engine to 300bhp and this is not due to change either.
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From: north east
got to admit, my sti uk 2003 as compared to my 99 classic + ppp + dawes + decat.... well the sti feels and is faster to 60, but my classic after it was ppp'd seemed to pick up more below 3000 revs, the sti once it hits 2700 to 3000 revs goes like ****, but pulling away from a junction in first i gotta admit unless you boot it it feels pretty flat ??
any comments or others feel the same??? now i have 2 an a half years warrenty left on it, so, i dont want to invalidate it, spent ages on phone today with subaru warrenty bods arguing the toss over 'does getting ppp fitted by non subaru dealer invallidate warrenty'? they say YES IT DOES. ..... d1cks..
i thought it seemed reasonable that if it was a brand new ppp kit supplied from prodrive my warrenty would still be in place, but no, only if fitted by subaru at their inflated prices !!!!! sorry where was i ??
oh yeh, cos i darnt take risk of invalidating warrnety im gonna go for ppp, im hoping this will pick up my lower range response of the car with the increase in torque.....
im tempted by other operators and kits which seem to ofer more gains for less money, but with my luck sommit would go t1ts up and blow me engine out of the bonnet !!
thanks for reading me rant... any comments ?
paul
any comments or others feel the same??? now i have 2 an a half years warrenty left on it, so, i dont want to invalidate it, spent ages on phone today with subaru warrenty bods arguing the toss over 'does getting ppp fitted by non subaru dealer invallidate warrenty'? they say YES IT DOES. ..... d1cks..
i thought it seemed reasonable that if it was a brand new ppp kit supplied from prodrive my warrenty would still be in place, but no, only if fitted by subaru at their inflated prices !!!!! sorry where was i ??
oh yeh, cos i darnt take risk of invalidating warrnety im gonna go for ppp, im hoping this will pick up my lower range response of the car with the increase in torque.....
im tempted by other operators and kits which seem to ofer more gains for less money, but with my luck sommit would go t1ts up and blow me engine out of the bonnet !!
thanks for reading me rant... any comments ?
paul
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Paul, my Sti8 is also very flat pulling away from junctions, very laggy, apparently this model of turbo shouldn't be like that and it is the way the car is mapped in standard form, maybe the PPP will address this....
