just to add Chris,

OK I here where you are coming from on the boost front, but surely a turbo feeding 1.6 bar of boost with an uprated induction will be feeding more air into the engine than a same size turbo feeding 1.3 bar of boost,

more air = higher air fuel mixture = better combustion then produces more power to the wheels by burning harder ???

Or am I barking up the wrong tree, I know the scoob is diffrent from the EVO's, if I had an EVO life would be far more easy.

 

Chris, i will take you up on that invitation, that is assuming we (you) can get the car ready in time. Further to our conversation today, i will come up on Thursday to discuss APS FMIC, C.A.I and the eagerly awaited APS 3 & 1/2 inch exhaust plus getting the car booked in for all this lot to be bolted on.

Mark, any sign of my turbo yet? LOL

 

Oh forgot, CTR Nutter, my personal choice would be to leave out the Racing Suction Kit from your list, purely down to bitter experience and a destroyed MAF. If you are going to bolt all that gear on to the STi it would be better to consider a different ECU to make the most of it all, GEMS or Motech perhaps.

Conrad

 

Already have the HKS in place, have had no problems yet, albeit Guy from CGR pulled the sensor out (carefully) checked it over, and said the STI-8 is a coil rather than a hair line like the STI-7 and said this should be far more robust. it's all luck of the draw but they do manfacture a replacement sensor which are up to the job, but i think they are cica £70

How did you know your sensor had gone???

The only problem I have noticed is putting the car in 6th gear on the motor way and applying the accelerator gently from 80mph till the car reaches about 6500rpm it shudders violently and you can here the Suction kit skittering. the prob with the HKS to gain real benefit it is all or nothing floor the car through the gears and it pulls very hard and the car seems to be very sure of itself.

I am a sucker for HKS because of the quality and look, yep I know sad but for me kit has to be all round quality, look, and performance,

Just to add looked into Autronics SM2 will be getting the ECUtek as a stanby while everything is going good then cams inlet outlet will be put on the car and the natural progression will be to put the SM2 in place, it's all cost and the cams won't be going on the car till sometime next year, the car has the PPP ECU at present which seem to be keeping the boost to a perfect 1.2 - 1.3, but the PPP wont be taking full advantage of the other mods, as all of the above will hopefully be on the car end of Sept start of Oct, it will be crazy to drive the car in its to be current state without some sort of map on the fueling

 

--------------------------------------------
How did you know your sensor had gone???

--------------------------------------------

The car would run & idle up until the boost started to come on, from that point it would just cough, fart & splutter and refused to go any higher up the rev range. Mine ran for about 3 weeks, it died on a cold rainy wet night. Maybe you'll be ok if they have revised the MAF sensor type but i have seen on here that these type of intakes give false MAF readings also due to pipe diameter, air velocity, pipe bends etc.

 

Update: Called in at G-Force On the way home Thursday to look at the new APS 3 1/2" system, Holy SH*! its huge, certainly wont be any restriction in that system. Had a ride in there 400BHP Sti 7 with it but not sure if I can handle the noise for the weekly motorway cruise to London.....??? Decisions Decisions. Perhaps I could mate the 3 1/2" system to a quieter backbox? or would it be two restrictive? Anybody any ideas?

 

I have an APS 3.5" system on order with Chris and he said that there was a bung supplied with the system - I guess this was not in the car when you tried it? What are you comparing it to when you say it is loud? Sounds like it will be

 

when you say loud compared to what ?? I mean I have HKS from turbo back soon to have drager Back box, and i can't imagine anything louder than that,

Blimey if it is, could you live with it as the HKS is 110-120 db

 

I used to run a full Mongoose on my V5 Sti and that was loud but this was much louder than that, Ill still get the system because of its breathing potential but I'll have to quieten it down somehow?????

 

Callum, do you know the quoted noise levels from that system? How did you find it looked under the car? the tailpipe came out at a funny angle to me and the system sure is low to the ground in certain places, speed humps could be a problem??

 

Hi RSVR Racer,
You are ahead of me here as I have not seen the new APS system - only pictures of it on the website.

Chris has no noise rating yet but said he would speak to the factory for the figures. As above, I was told there is a bung supplied with the system to keep the noise down?

Ground clearance is 40 to 50mm less partly due to the sheer size but also because they have taken a fairly straight line to improve flow - not that it should be too much of a problem with a 3.5" hole

Any more info or a picture much appreciated.

 

Guys feed me as much info as pos please,

Just been on to Guy at CPR, who is working alongside G-Force on the kit,

I was told to fit

Gems ECU
APS Full turbo Back System,
APS Induction Kit
APS Front Mount Intercooler

On the car at the mo,

HKS Racing Suction Kit
HKS Sequential BOV
HKS Turbo back system with PPP Backbox
PPP ECU
PPP Fuel Pump


throw away RSK,PPP ECU, And staright through System

whats the score on this system as a few people seem to be very excited about it, it changes the STI-8 into an animal apparently.

And if this will produce 350-360 the I'm not going to bother with any of the other mods I stated earlier,

I take what Guy says as Golden

 

CTR, I have seen this system on G-Forces car and its huge, it has a true 3 & 1/2" internal diameter from the turbo to the tail pipe, it is certainly the biggest system I've seen on the market. This is the only one in the country at the moment, I have my name on one and its due Mid October I believe. Noise is LOUD but apparently there is a bung available and I did notice the hole in the tailpipe for mounting it.

The Gems unit is the one they are trying to sell me, its (apparently, dont quote me) the only system that will control the VVT on the cars as well as all the standard other features, It also does away with the MAF and I am led to believe it was used by Prodrive in the early days, i.e. lots of development was done.
Not a bad price either £1595 is inclusive of mapping compared to Motec etc.

Racing Suction kit simply takes warm turbulent air from under the bonnet whereas APS C.A.I. takes Cold air from inner wing and pipe diameter is larger. Hence the reason to change it.

On the day I was there an STi 8 had just been finished with the kit you listed, the graph showed a very credible 355.1 HP, the restriction at that point was the turbo (standard) VF. There Demo car is the same spec but with SR40 turbo and the 3 & 1/2" system added, power jumped to 404 HP. Oh yes and it was only running 1.3 Bar so it wasnt a mobile handgrenade waiting to go off!

Hope this helps...


[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/2/2003 2:11:09 PM]

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/2/2003 2:14:35 PM]

 

ta,

the HKS takes a feed from the wing as well from the wheel arch. they were going to try and keep the HKS in place but the diameter of the Pipe will cause them problems,

yeah that was the next step they were talking about binning the turbo.

I think you will probably see the car in there in a few weeks then, as Guy will push to get the car started on. sounds like a good kit for all round reliability

 

There Demo is in daily use and has been for a few months so things seem to be holding up nicely, apparently APS in AUZ have gone a little further, upto 500 HP for the next stage but dont know whats involved with that apart from the turbo position has changed.. see my other thread "anybody turned the turbo 90 degrees"

Juncar

Turbo turn

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/2/2003 2:46:12 PM]

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/2/2003 2:49:00 PM]

 

Presumably that would the "only AFTERMARKET system"? Remember that (like John said earlier), the standard ECU is a good bit of kit and for most uses, up to the kind of power you are talking about, is fine with a remap. This has the advantage of keeping all the "other features" too. TBH, IIRC, the Pectel can do VVT with it's eyes closed, and some of the Motec units can too so I'm not so sure the claim is correct anyway.

On the Turbo front, Chris, I look forward to seeing the results too as IIRC, none of the "experienced" mappers have been able to extract 400bhp from the SR40 in the UK yet......

Matt

 

you are being misled.

both the pectel and motec are more than capable of handling vvt on the impreza.

I wonder if G force told you that the wrc teams actually ditch the vvt anyway and run standard albeit their own profile of cams.

The gems is a great unit, but I wouldn't believe this nonsense about extra development. It was certainly used in group n, but their development is no more substantial than the motec development from aus or pectel in the UK. sounds like sales hyp to me.

And as for a 3.5 inch system. This is only required if you are struggling with back pressure from a smaller diameter system and all ti will serve to do is add noise. Since 3 inch systems are reputedly good for 600bhp, I fail to see the need for a drainpipe underneath the car.

 

oh and one more thing.....

does the aps high power car use their cold air induction kit?

I think you wuill find the answer is no, because it is too restrictive for the level of power they claim.

Interesting as the intake diammeter of all their SR range turbo is also too small for the unproven in this country power figures they claim.

 

its not that the other ECU's are no good but that they have a proven car with the GEMS,

I was going to get the Autronics SM2 which is an ECU that Guy at CPR sells as one of his main units but admitted to me on the phone that it would make far more sense to go for the Gems which is proven on the car.

To me what they use on a rally car means nothing I want a car for the road and odd track day, with complete reliabillity I have faith in Guy who has got my current car running like a dream, after many said the car would blow up !! well it runs far better than a standard PPP, I also have complete faith in an outfit who races GT Porsches and Ferraris

 

the gems is a great unit. anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.

But, the standard ecu is a phenominal bit of kit and I can promise you far more attention went into its development than went into the gems ecu.

I can also guarantee it is proven on the car.

In the past it was worth changing ecus to include features which the stadnard one couldnt cope with such as being mappable. But now with the ecutek among others, the standard ecu is more than up to the job, but does not need to have its idle set up as it runs perfect maf controlled closed loop, something which the gems cannot. It also will run the best ignition it can all the time, again the gems will not.

In the past the gems could give more than the standard ecu was capable of, but the new range of standard ecus are so advanced in the beginning that the aftermarkets have to be quite s[pecial to warrant the swap.

Anything short of a pectel and I would not bother.

 

Nice to see a healthy debate starting here. As stated somewhere earlier - there is more than one way to skin a cat....

Did the guys at Prodrive say anything about ditching the vvt on the rally car's Pectel system because they had problems with hysteresis between cam positions in the map which made the engine performance erratic - so opted for an aggressive cam profile a locked the camshaft position?

MoTeC - on a GT car I wouldn't specify anything else. I've used their systems since the M8 Pro in various Porsches and touring cars in Aus - along with Autronic as luck would have it. The STi 7 and 8 boards from Autronic are not available yet, and the MoTeC pricing structure has to be seen to be believed - circa £2500 for a mapped system with no knock facility - no thanks. You don't run knock control on a racecar as it can harnm performance - but on a road car with some of the rubbish fuel quality seen here its almost mandatory. ECUs are a matter of choice - we get good reliable results with GEMS, and for the money we are more tha happy.

As stated by someone here the standard ecu is great - but how long would it take to remap the ecu for 400bhp using an ecutek for example - without real-time mapping. I think you'd easily do your 100 flashes - perhaps more, so the £650 remap becomes very expensive when you add the cost of one or two new ecus aswell (as after 100 flashes you cannot re-program - correct me if I'm wrong).

This 400 bhp is just for starters. 500bhp has been achieved, but on a twin injector system, to ensure good idle and cold start aswell as big bhp - I would be most impressed if anyone can run an STi with 8 injectors on a standard ecu derivative.

Adam M - I think you'll find the APS high power car DOES use an APS induction kit - watch this space. Our car does.

A lot of people say a lot of things..............

Adam M - FREE bhp shootout with Banzai at the start of November - or December (date unfinalised). Trophies awarded etc.. invitation only - can I count on you to be there with your APS 400/500 bhp alternative? Keep me informed. I don't mean this email to sound short - but its 6:15 and I have to get out of the office sometime.

Chris

 

Good to see one of the Tuners coming back with some answers......

Anyone else care to throw some info in?

 

I have done alot of work on induction/exhaust etc.
The APS CAK is restrictive, it was easliy the worst of the setups I ran on my own car, and I used it for 5 months. It is not suitable for use with the std ecu without a detailed remap (not just a tweak) as it seriously upset's the maf. Its not a problem to use if remapped, I've done quite a few now. If you remove the maf and use an aftermarket ecu based on speed density then that does not apply of course.

Gems is no better than Motec, Pectel etc, I have found that the Motec M800 does a v good job of controlling the cams, I'm sure the Pectal doeas as well so to say Gems is the only ecu capable is abit misleading.

I am also sceptical about the APS turbo but ... will freely admit to not using or mapping one, so if anyone wants to I would be glad to assess a car using it as long as the rest of the spec was compatable and the ecu in question was oem,Gems or Motec, that way I have a large amount of comparative data available.

If its good I will say so, we don't sell loads of turbo's, its not really our market, too many others in it now and too many varients around to justify so no axe to grind.

There are many different ways of skinning this cat, with the right set up its possible to get 400 bhp from 1.3 bar, My Sti 5 made 398 at 1 bar, 420 at 1.2/1.3 ish bar, 445 at 1.5 bar. This was during part throttle rolling road runs at PE, 35%, 50% and 75% respectively. Since the G Force rollers are pretty close to PE's (proven by Harvey on two separate occassions) the I'm sure that the figures can be considered comparable. Many combinations of parts can be put together to achieve this.

The term "using a std engine" implies some magic, no magic at all since it comprises all the same component parts as an uprated one BUT ... the std engine doesn't have the strength or clearances to run high power in a consistent way. The reason for uprating engine internals is to provide strength and durability at high power AND high torque.

The factory ecu can be mapped to accomodate a wide range of injectors, there is certainly no need to fit twin banks even if 850 cc items are needed, idle etc is still fine. Given that such a car would be de-catted in any case. Its only limit is going to be maf output v airflow but thats easily sorted by fitting a larger barrel and air intake and rescaling to suit, again not a big problem, just work to do.

An aftermarket ecu will always provide a greater degree of adjustment and flexibility than the factory, but the factory ecu remapped still has a significant role to play in achieving good power and torque.

cheers

bob

 

Nice one Bob.

Cheers,

Chris

 

I wonder where the restriction is with the APS CAK, because the elbow into the inner wing is of larger cross sectional area than other areas in the inlet tract, and I plotted two road dyno plots one on top of the other within 20 minutes which were within a single horsepower difference at approx 400 BHP level from running with/without a filter (just to see if it was a restriction). I was surprised at this. The test was done with a 3" internal diameter exhaust which has been on other 2.0 (non-STi) cars in the 390-440 BHP range, plus my test was without the benefit of aftermarket headers or STi heads... perhaps these were the restriction? Yes the filter does look small, but I haven't seen anything satisfactory to replace it with that is easily blanked off from the underbonnet heat. K&N seem a little vague on what they rate various filters to also. It would be tricky to fit something much larger in the wing? I suppose I could have moved the bottleneck on a bit now and will have to think again.

 

John it does seem to be the filter, when I removed mine and changed to a HKS my fueling leaned noticeably (using Link), I then moved to K & N 57i and it leaned again. One problem is that the fliter is tight against the inner wing mouldings, and, in time, it cakes up with mud, not good news and a real pain to clean.

Having the filter underbonnet makes next to no difference on the move, in any event all the associated cast pipework heats up nicely causing just as many problems ... no change really.

 

Hadn't thought of that re the cast pipework/heatsoak. Must try a 57i again.

 

FAO John, I would like to do some mods to my STi7 but at a more sedate pace (which will keep the wife happy!). I don't want 400bhp but 300 would be nice to start with without blowing the engine and getting single figure mpg. Is it a fair assumption that the STi8 engine is very similar to the previous version?

I have already fitted a Magnex BB & straight through centre section which replaced the intermediate silencer? My next thought was to fit a sports cat downpipe. I know there have been some pretty long threads regarding mods to the STi7 and in particular with respect to the fuel pump. Will the unmodified ECU work happily with a more free flowing exhaust and does this engine benefit from air filter changes, panel or induction?

Every tuning company will give different advice usually geared round the products they are set up to deal with but any personal advice would be welcome.

ps I don't really want to go down the PPP route as I feel I've given Subaru UK enough of my hard earned at present and I wasn't really impressed by the look and sound of the exhaust system in the kit.

cheers
Andy

 

Chris,

We were not discussing 500bhp and twin rails with 8 injectors IIRC. We were discussing the merits of the standard ECU up to 400bhp?I don't recall Adam stating either that he had an alternative (he may well but he didn't make any claims as such), or that he could do better, just that some of the claims/information being proffered was inaccurate or incorrect.

Matt.

 

Matt - I've obviously done something to pi** you off in a past life.

I think you'll find I was discussing the choice of GEMS or other programmable ecu over an ECUTEK or other OEM ecu derivative. I don't see the point in spending all that time adapting a system which you will change down the line anyway.

Regarding Adam stating either that he had an alternative (he may well but he didn't make any claims as such), or that he could do better - I hope one of these two cases is true, or he's a rally mechanic/engineer with Prodrive. Reading a couple of other posts it appears he has a good intake setup which a lot of people have overlooked, and talks decent horsepower aswell - the dyno run offer is genuine. I'm all for a healthy discussion about what works and what doesn't so that people get the most out of their engine set-up, but if people don't have experience of what they are posting then this will get very misleading.

Regarding some of the claims/information being proffered as inaccurate or incorrect - I think you'll find I didn't say the GEMS system was the 'only' system to control vvt - just the most cost effective - PROVEN - ecu in our experience. In fact RSVR Racer
even said 'don't quote me' when he posted regarding that conversation. I think the only person leaning toward misleading information in this thread may be MM.

Good points RE Ecutek Bob - I guess its like everything, as you become more familiar with it you will get a lot faster.