The Fixer

Mat, Adam, Thanks for the info, from what i could see the demo car did have there C.A.I. on. I'm not making any claims as to there power??? I only relay on what I'm told. I have been to many different places and spoke to many different tuners on the phone, G-Force, TSL, BRD & RC Developments to name but a few, guess what they all tell there own story as to what's best. I am doing my own thing based on the successful cars I read about and my own ideas but still don't want to swap ECU's at this point in time. With this in mind I have already approached Bob Rawle about mapping the car with ECUTEK when I get all my parts in place. The three inch exhaust system would suit me fine if thats the case with regards to restrictions, I didn't fancy the drain pipe look anyway (bit too old for that)

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/2/2003 6:10:52 PM]

Bob Rawle

No worries Chris, all based on personal experience.

cheers

bob

edited to say just re read post above, you are wrong about flashing the oem, they will stand more than that and ... it wouldn't (shouldn't) take upwards of more than 20/25 to get it right if you put in the detail work in advance, you should already have some idea of what is necessary to achieve 400 bhp b4 starting if you see what I mean so it shouldn't be a stab in the dark. Agreed its not "nice" working outside of real time but once the technique is mastered its not too bad. Doesn't take me that much longer to do a oem remap compared to a Link, Motec or Gems these days. The most frustrating thing is not having access to injector timing maps etc. and not being able to cylinder compensate fueling.

[Edited by Bob Rawle - 9/2/2003 10:50:09 PM]

Mike Tuckwood

There will (should) be some fairly good results coming in by now for STi7/8.

I have been running my car now with our (Scooby Mania) T2 performance upgrade kit for several months in daily use.

T2
SM 3" twin dump full 3" exhaust system
Uprated panel filter
GEMS ECU.

This ran 331 BHP @ 1.37bar and 320 lb/ft (@4100 rpm) on the standard Turbo. The final mapping was done on the road and mapped to run at 1.6 Bar peak with projected figures of approx 360BHP and 345 lb/ft. This was then held back by the Turbo. The Dyno plot is very impressive, I will try and get it up on the web site tomorrow (later today).

This kit (T2) is priced at £2,350. inc fitting, Similar performance can be gained using our Ecutek based system and it is noticeably cheaper but limits future power options.

We are in the midst of the Scooby Mania T3 upgrade at the moment and have seen the results and watched carefully other approaches that have been taken using other particular Turbos. As a result we have designed/specified our own Hybrid turbo (a range of them actually) which can also be modified/altered to fine tune any preferred set up.

The T3 upgrade will consist of (as an outright package if purchased in one go)

Full Scooby Mania 3" Twin dump exhaust
HKS Induction kit
Gems ECU
Uprated Fuel pump and Reg
650cc injectors
AVO FMIC (New design)
Hybrid Turbo

We are expecting this to run in the region of 420 bhp and approaching 400lb/ft torque.

We are not recommending that the car is pushed further than this on standard internals and we are already preparing an engine with top spec internals and numerous engineering processes with a view to running in excess of 550HP (T4+ kit)

The last 2 stages have not yet been priced but will be as always, very competitive (in more ways than one).


Mike.
Scooby Mania

[Edited by Mike Tuckwood - 9/4/2003 12:51:18 AM]

The Fixer

Richie, I think that by fitting a better downpipe(decatted) it will go alot better in that the turbo will spool up quicker thus less lag. Also you could think about removing the centre cat with a bypass pipe which will improve things. CAUTION: if youre removing the cats in the downpipe or centre I would suggest a remap for sure. Seen numerous stories, decatted STi7 & 8's with no remap going pop! My Sti 8 is still standard and very laggy! NOT For long LOL

Edited because I can't SPLLE oops... Spell I mean!

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/4/2003 1:59:02 PM]

MorayMackenzie

Re Bob R's post: "The term "using a std engine" implies some magic, no magic at all since it comprises all the same component parts as an uprated one BUT ... the std engine doesn't have the strength or clearances to run high power in a consistent way. The reason for uprating engine internals is to provide strength and durability at high power AND high torque."

This cloning of internals would miss out on the option of changing the engine geometry from the standard layout when uprating the internals. For instance, changing the stroke or bore, or, more commonly I suspect, the static compression ratio. For pretty much the same money as standard shaped uprated internals you can change the engines overall character, for instance, maybe going for a higher compression and larger capacity to give an engine with a lot more low down torque and tractability.


[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 9/5/2003 12:55:41 PM]

The Fixer

No worries on the waving front, would have flagged you down for a chat had I not been in my partners saxo! Too Embarrassed..... Car looks nice though, very discrete unless you know what youre looking at.

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/5/2003 4:07:41 PM]

The Fixer

Gents, looking for a tuning path for my 03 STi8. Standard at the moment so we are starting with a clean sheet. I have spoken with various people and the one I'm considering at the moment is with G force motorsport (Stage 1 for now). The cost is £1895 inc VAT.

Includes;

Fuel pump upgrade
Full Exhaust System (APS)
ECU remap

Claimed Power 310-320 HP on Optimax

Alternatively, i can have a GEMS ECU which will cater for the stage 2 scenario later but this bumps the price upto £3065 inc VAT.

Stage 2

Includes;

APS Induction Kit
APS FMIC kit (DR500 version)
Remap of Gems If purchased in Stage 1

Claimed Power 350-360 HP on Optimax

Cost Extra £2300 ish ontop of stage 1 £3065.


Any comments, help, recommendations, with regard to this outfit or any other outfit, equipment they use (GEMS, APS) before I spend any money.....

(Eventually looking to go to around 400/440 so please take this into consideration)

Cheers

Conrad

The Fixer

I guess Nobody has done anything with an Sti 8 yet? LOL

john banks

For 400 BHP (if that is your target best do it all at once if you can as you save money doing it right first time) you could consider:

Fuel pump
Injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
Front mounted intercooler
Turbo
Induction kit and inlet pipe
Water injection
Exhaust manifold/uppipe
Full exhaust from turbo back
ECU remap or standalone ECU
Boost gauge/oil temp/oil pressure
Knocklink

The Fixer

Thanks John, I think thats basically what G-Force stage II package was offering.

Fuel Pump
Full Exhaust
FMIC
APS Induction kit
GEMS ECU
Full fitting & Mapping Included

350-360HP for 5K all inc.

There demo STi 7 runs 400HP on standard internals, same spec but with bigger injectors and turbo. Dont think the budget will stretch that far in one go...LOL. I can maybe bolt these bits on later but will need a remap I presume hence cost more cash than doing it in one hit.

JIMBO STI

so far done on my STI8

PPP UPGRADE
HKS RSK
HKS DOWN PIPE
DE CAT
HKS SSQV

HKS BOOST GAUGE to make sure everything's in check. cost £1400

Next a


knocklink
ECU RE MAP
And still deciding on back box Blitz or HKS

poss 340 -360bhp

best thing is according to top gears report and tuners the sti8 has stronger internals

Jimbo

john banks

I would change the turbo for 350-360 BHP as the VF35 is rather small. A VF35 would be working very hard for a genuine 350+ BHP if it could do it at all on all UK dynos not using race fuel. For an easy 350+ BHP on any dyno IMHO you want a turbo more the size of a 20G so you don't have to run silly boost.

This would be my recipe for 400 BHP...

Fuel pump £140 Lateral Performance
Fuel pressure regulator - £70 Lateral Performance
APS FMIC - £900 various suppliers in Scoobyshop
Turbo - Andy F sells them quite reasonably - £800 for a 20G which has done 440 BHP with 1 bar at 3000 RPM. Also similar available from Lateral Performance. BRD sell a very nice Garrett based turbo which Bob uses to knock on the door of 500 BHP with a 2.0 litre engine. Lots of options here
Induction kit and inlet pipe - £360 - APS & MRT
Water injection - £280 Scoobshop S-ONE or Aquamist a little more expensive - see Scoobyshop
Exhaust manifold/uppipe - £400 - Gruppe S - group buy price, a bit more if you personally import from US, £50 for exhaust wrap and gaskets for uppipe
Remap original ECU £650 upwards, various suppliers - see Ecutek website, full aftermarket ECUs do have advantages and disadvantages in terms of expense and capabilities, but the original ECU can handle big power just fine, junk it if you have a reason to (mainly to get rid of the MAF sensor).
Full exhaust from turbo back - £495 from Revolution for Classic - full 3" as used on a few c.400 BHP classics now, not sure if it is the same price for STi 8
Boost gauge/oil temp/oil pressure - £150 Demon Tweeks etc
Knocklink - £140 BR Developments

Total £4400 plus labour for comfortable 400 BHP with all the gauges and things you need. Probably £5000 by the time you've included labour.

Whilst the internals are strong, as Bob has pointed out the bore clearances on these engines are very tight indeed so they like to be kept rich on fuelling and boost limited - say 1.4 bar midrange, 1.25 bar at the top. This does limit the power a bit, so you have to make the most of all the other things like headers, big turbo, FMIC, water to get best possible power at low boost, or change the pistons....

[Edited by john banks - 8/19/2003 12:46:01 PM]

Blue_Boy

Mines' going to be quite pitiful in comparison, (mods wise):

Just the Exhaust (Probably have to go with Milltek & Sports Cat), so I can keep the warranty.

But this is good for around 350bhp apparently - on the Spec C that is They've had it on the rollers at PE without and it's doing 322bhp, so I'll have to wait and see after running it in and then onto a RR

Agree with John though, much better to wait and get it all done at once, you'd be surprised how all that mapping costs (in labour mainly) can mount up and all of a sudden you realise that Turbo wasn't that much more - if you'd have got the lot all at the same time!

The Fixer

Thanks for the info. G-Force have just e-mailed me with the additional costs to go to the next stage.....450 HP

You will also need 650cc/min injectors (£550),
APS SR40 turbocharger (£1,404.13)
and a new rotated mount up-pipe and inlet system which will be available in the next 6-8 weeks.

Any preferable turbochargers / injectors against these that I can source myself to keep the cost down?

john banks

If you look on the MRT boards, the Australians report difficulties getting 400 BHP out of an SR50 never mind an SR40. Where are the results? The housings are rather small for such power claims...

What turbos have made easy 400 + BHP on cars in the UK?

Harvey: Ion turbo Mid-High 400s
Bob: Garrett/P20 Turbo Mid-High 400s
AndyF: TD05/06 20G Mid 400s
Lateral: Full Garrett, 2.5 litre engines, Mid 500s BHP

john banks

I got 740cc injectors for £359 shipped from Phase2motortrend. They are SR20DET Tomei Red injectors. http://www.phase2motortrend.com/tom74sr20det.html Like a lot of 740s they need a slight filing of the plastic case and the pins bent to fit but that is no real issue.

The Fixer

John, thanks for your time and information it has been very useful. From what I can make out the stage 1 seems OK at 310/320 hp for the money( £1895 very similar to PPP ) but the stage 2 & 3 cost from G-force seems excessive. I think I'll be better of buying the bits seperately. If it was yourself who was shopping, what parts would you go for? And if you know the suppliers thats even better!

Induction Kit?
FMIC?
Turbo?
Exhaust System?
Up Pipe?
Dump Valve?
Injectors (I guess you got the Tomei ones?)
Fuel Pump?
Pressure Regulator?
GEMS ECU or ECU tek?
Boost Controller?

john banks

310 BHP:

Full exhaust - speak to Revolution Motorsport £495 +
Fuel pump - Lateral Performance or Power Engineering £130
Ecutek Remap - Various suppliers £615 +

Total cost - £1240

370 BHP:

Add APS FMIC + induction to above - £1100 unless the STi one is more expensive
TD05/06 20G turbo - £800

400 BHP as listed earlier - basically adding the twiddly bits to run more power at similar boost - eg water/headers etc.

Plus gauges you should have anyway, even on a standard car IMHO...
Knocklink - BR Developments £140
Boost gauge - Demon Tweeks £35 +

I am sure G-Force's GEMS packages are very nice, it is an excellent bit of kit, but at this level mapping the OEM ECU will save you money. The APS exhaust is also top quality, the high flow cat pushes the price up a bit though.

[Edited by john banks - 8/19/2003 7:08:35 PM]

[Edited by john banks - 8/19/2003 7:14:06 PM]

The Fixer

Cheers, very useful info. i will print it and go shopping. Watch this space and I will post results. One question, ANDY F for the turbo, do you have contact details or what shop it is please?

john banks

andyf9000@hotmail.com but he is on holiday at present.

The Fixer

Cheers John.

PS Will the ECUTek work in conjunction with an Apexi AVCR boost Controller?

john banks

Yes, but the ECU can control the boost quite nicely on STi models.

The Fixer

John, ordered the fuel pump & regulator, also ordered a turbo (VF/Garret hybrid) from Mark at Lateral Performance, what size injectors do you reccommend 550cc? I havent ordered a Full exhaust yet, do you know what the noise is like from the Revolution one you recommended (volume wise) Don't want something anoying on the motorway. (Heard TSL's group N system yesterday and thats acceptable whilst cruising at 85/90mph). On the air filter side, is the green panel filter an acceptable choice?

loscooby

Hi RSVR Racer!

I would be very interested in your results as I too have a STi8 that needs more power.

I am planning on going down the ECUTEK(Scoobysport) route with a full decat, people tell me that I can expect something like 320-330Hp with a nice torque across the RPM-range.
Things will be monitored by my diy-OBD-II display.

/L-O

The Fixer

Hey Ioscooby, keep your eyes on this thread. I am currently trying to buy all the bits I need over the next few weeks, then when I get everything I think I'll need......Does this ever happen? LOL I will get it all bolted on and mapped then hopefully on one session. I was going to start like you did with exhaust and Ecutek but it gets expensive having remaps each time you mod the car.

carlos_hiraoka

The STi 8 already comes with 550cc's injectors ..... but I would go for bigger units, probably 660's or even 740's.

Carlos H.

The Fixer

Cheers Carlos, i will try and source 660 or 740's then.

aus73

Conrad,

I'll be very interested in your results aswell. It hasn't been officially announced yet, but we are holding a FREE rolling road day here on the 1st of November, to find the most powerfull scoobies in the country. Banzaii magazine will be here, it will probably be sponsored by a fuel company, and trophies will be awarded. I'll extend you a personal invitation to see how your hybird STi 8 performs.

John, the discussions about APS turbos are interesting. With boxer engines you're much better off extracting the maximum bhp with the minimum boost pressure - they're nothing like a Cosworth or EVO engine which responds well to maximum boost. With this in mind the APS turbos will not flow any more air at 1.6 bar, than they do at 1.3 bar. So if you configure an engine at 1.3 bar and it doesn't make the power you expect - when you turn the boost up you will still not make any more power. This is the point people start using larger and larger turbos at the expense of bottom end power delivery - and the try to explain it away saying 'well it is a big turbo'. To be honest - its bull****!!

A properly engineered package will deliver peak efficiency and peak performance at low boost. Talking STi engines on Optimax - that's 355/360bhp at 1.2 bar on a standard turbo, and 405 on an APS SR40 at 1.3 bar.

At the end of the day there is more than one way to skin a cat. However I hate having to tell people that they have to throw away everything they have already put on the car if they want to get serious performance. Time will tell........

Chris Davies
Technical Manager
G-Force Motorsport

john banks

I look forward to the results.

CTRnutter

If this helps, as my Bro stated (JIMBO STI) this is what we are adding to the car next and what is already on there

Car = STI-8 PPP

HKS Racing Suction Kit
Induction Heat Shield
Battery Relocation Kit
Samco Hose Kit
HKS Sequential BOV
PPP Fuel Pump
HKS Oil Breather & Catch Tank
HKS Turbo Downpipe
HKS De-Cat
HKS Centre Section
HKS Super Drager Back Box
Blitz Iridium spark plugs
Blitz DTT XT Turbo Timer
ECUtek 3 Remap with Knocklink
SECS Data Unit with Oil Pressure / Temp sensor kit
HKS Analogue Boost Guage.
AP Organic Clutch
AP 6 pots
Lighter, Wider Rims (Not decided)and no real benifit on the rollers

Mapping higher boost 1.6 bar or tailing it off to 1.45, this will be left as is until further info on FMIC and Turbo is available, Haven't got the bottle to add a turbo upgrade and then it all to go bang,

If any of you can advise on what might be a waste of time and where you are going to get where you are this could be of great help to me,





[Edited by CTRnutter - 8/26/2003 12:28:59 PM]