Holy Ghost

no - i don't think it will happen.

drugs will never be surpressed: look what happened with booze during prohibition in the US. built the mafia into a force able to exploit the next big prohibited substance: drugs.

so: drugs, booze, nicotine and prostitution. you can't kill the instinct. what do we do? legalise, tax and control two of them and pick up the inevitable pieces. then drive the other two underground and create an entire global black economy worth tens of billions a year based on murder, street crime, burglary, abuse, racketeering and exploitation. and still we try to pick up the inevitable pieces.

it's so **** about face.

legalise all narcotic substances - just as we legalise everything from a light beer to hard spirits. control production, purity and supply/distribution: tax them, regulate them. destroy the dealer business by pricing them out of the market. deal direct with the producers, wipe the slate clean and allow their businesses to go legit, share profit, put in place effective policing and legal legislation to keep them away from minors, levy the severest punishments for unauthorised dealing.

use the economics of drugs to facilitate its control. totally pie in the sky and unpalateable i know but governments do not control the drug business: it controls them. and we will never control them until we bite the bullet of legalisation and how to go about it - you cannot tackle and defeat a problem if you can't get a hold of it. and its the social spin-offs of crime that are at the centre of it all.

i for one cannot see the difference between jack daniels and cocaine. both are barbiturates, both are made from natural substances, both will get you right off your box and both kill you if abused. it's all just perception of legal and illegal.

the whole situation will remain, inperpetuity, a buggers' muddle of the highest order.

sorry, i had a soapbox moment there ...

micaAB

got to concur with NACRO here, all addictive substances should be treated equal.

when alochol was subject to prohibition in america back in the ealry part of the last century, that was the prime focus of organised crime syndicates and the average joe still went out of his way to find it. now it's legal (along with cigarettes), it's viewed as an acceptable vice.

don't get me wrong, i'm quite aware that illegal drugs cause damage to the individual, and in some cases induce crime sprees to pay for addictions, but the suffering caused to an individuals family and friends by illigal drug use can be mirrored by those with alcohol abuse, anti-depressent addictions etc.

i think many people would be surprised just how many other people have and are using illegal drugs and still lead a normal healthy responsible life.

it's also good to see this thread not descending into slanging and being kept on an opinion expression basis.

Dave P

I have to say I'm with NACRO on this. Many years ago I went to a talk on drugs. If either tobacco or alcohol came into the country now they would both be class A drugs as they are both mentally and physically addictive.

Alcohol and tobacco are killers as well, just because they are legal we shouldn't hide behind this. A quick search of the Internet shows that in 2000 the officially recorded alcohol deaths was 5,000 allthough all related deaths it's closer to 33,000 deaths compared to drugs related deaths of 754 in 1999!

The reason OTHER hard drugs such as cocaine cand heroine are seen to be worse is because they are not legalised. If they were legalised the price would almost certainly tumble, potentially drug related crime would fall.

The government would benefit from the legalisation as they would be able to introduce taxes the revenue from which could be put back into health and education.

The bottom line is people who want to take drugs are going to take them. You can't beat them so you may as well join them. It's only the morals of many that stop this happening.

Dave

Holy Ghost

micaAB - good point. especially about how widely (and sensibly) illegal drugs do get used.

carpet cleaner - great topic my man. lots of good etiquette, interesting thoughts, let's keep it rocking ...

daiscooby

So do we also advocate the death penalty for:

Newsagents: Cigs, Drink
Supermarket Employees: Cigs, Drink
Off Licence onwers and staff: Cigs, Drink
Pub Landlords and staff: Cigs, Drink

The list goes on.
It is a statistical fact that more people die each week from cigs and booze than die from drugs each year. Death penalty, think again.

Holy Ghost

yup. re: illegal Vs legal, there's an extraordinary, self-censoring and hypocritical blindspot at work here. it's orwellian doublethink down to a T.

Brendan Hughes

If you're talking about in the UK, it won't happen until we remove ourselves from the European Convention on Human Rights (IIRC), which outlaws the death penalty for anything. And before anyone rails against the EU, it's the Council of Europe, a totally separate institution.

If you're talking about other countries, it already exists, but I guess you know that.

Nice discussion, keep it up.

NACRO

Brendan,

I believe Portugal has no penalties for drug possession now, if that's the case how have you found it affected the drug problem in Lisbon? I'm aware that there are a lot of addicts there but have never been myself to see it (too scared to drive into Lisbon for fear of the mad drivers and getting the Subaru trashed)

[Edited by NACRO - 5/15/2003 8:03:42 PM]

King RA

I saw a whole program about the case for the legalisation of all drugs and it was very compelling to say the least. Alot of the arguments have already been discussed, but you may not know during the 1st half of the 20th century heroin was prescribed to many well know, distinguished members of society, whom lead perfectly normal, and even somewhat remarkable lives whilst hooked on the drug. Heroin in a pure, prescribed form is no more dangerous, nor debilitating than a beer. Heroin out on the street, full of crap and of an unknown strength is what kills.

The thing which annoys me most about the whole situation is the goverments total disregard to the effects it's drug policy is having on peoples lives. It seems to have turned it's back on the fact it is ruining thousands of lives, yet a turnaround in policy would address all these issues. Our countrys drug policy DOES NOT WORK, it doesn't take a genius to see it is a battle which cannot be won, and only fuels more crime, misery, drug abusers e.t.c. You only have to look at the Netherlands, a country of liberal drug laws which has a much lower population of addicts and even less cannabis smokers believe it or not.

Brendan Hughes

I started to write a book to answer, but have just given up, it's late. Let's try the "in a nutshell" version.

1. I don't know personally. I got here in Jan 01, and the change in the law took effect in July 01. I never really knew what it was like beforehand.

2. Portugal has removed criminal penalties for possession of less than 10 doses of any drug. However, if you get caught, you will still be stopped by a copper, have your name taken, and the drugs confiscated. Instead of going to a criminal court, they will send you to a "Commission", consisting of a lawyer, doctor and social worker. The commission looks at your case and decides on the best course of action to stop you taking it again - a slap on the wrist for the occasional users, and a course of treatment for the addicts. No jail, no future-destroying criminal record.

3. Portugal did this as it has one of the worst rates of heroin abuse in Europe, and decided that locking up addicts didn't do any good towards stopping them or the HIV rate.

The international community is watching very closely. I don't think there are any statistics yet that show it is a "success" or a "failure". However, the law was instituted by a left-wing government and is now being allowed to continue by a centre-right government, rather than instantly overturned as some had expected.


Hope this helps

Brendan

cryptwalk

You've obviously never stood in the middle of a huge rave.

Wassent alcohol an illiegal drug at one time?

cryptwalk

NACRO

Brendan,

thanks for the answer, it explains the situation in Portugal very well. I hope one day govts throughout Europe find the courage to try a similar experiment.

Brendan Hughes

The closest we are getting to the model suggested above is in Switzerland, where they are seriously looking (and have been for 2 yrs) at govt-controlled distribution, taxing, etc. All other govts in Europe are hindered by having ratified a UN Convention to criminalise drug possession for personal use, the Swiss didn't, so they don't have that problem. (Don't ask about Portugal - lawyers have been arguing for years, it can be interpreted both ways). Trouble is, I heard recently that they shot themselves in the foot a bit when they announced the govt price for one substance (can't remember what, probably heroin) would be HIGHER than the current street price. Oops.

Chip

Cryptwalk,
No I havent stood in the middle of a rave.Nor would I want to.
What I have had is a close friend dying from drugs and one other who had a drug related death(car accident).So I have seen first hand what it can do to you when you get into the "harder" drugs.
Have you I wonder.

Chip.

NACRO

Chip,

Really sorry to hear about your personal tragedy, any needless death is a total and absolute waste. However what you have described could easily be the result of alcohol abuse not just "drugs". Would you advocate a ban on that too?

It's not the "drugs" that cause the problem it's peoples misuse of them. As I said earlier education and responsible choices are what we need to promote.

Another question, just because a substance is illegal does it really stop those that want to use it from obtaining it?

Holy Ghost

interesting what you say about portugal and switzerland brendan. enlightened thinking, albeit through necessity. one of the biggest obstacles we have here is called the daily mail.

i'd echo nacro's thoughts chip - without appearing to be patronising, it's a crying shame and i appreciate the validity of the stance you take. i'd add though that there is an even bigger problem with people dying through drink-driving accidents and an even bigger health and social issue with alcohol-related deaths.

the governmental doublethink on this just staggers me.

but as always, irresponsible behaviour with any sort of intoxicant, legal or otherwise, is likely to end with someone getting hurt.

Jye

I agree entirely with NACRO.

CarpetCleaner

well I've been watching this letting it run and run and I've taken on board much of what has been said

There's so much to respond to it would take ages

All I can say is this, the long term effects of alchol and tabacco on the body are well known. It's possible to take alchohol or cigarettes in moderation without developing an addiction, perhaps less so in alcohol

The thing with all this drug taking is that the long term effects of taking these substances is not fully know. There is no way of knowing how a 20 year old who is taking ecstacy for a few years will be affected in years to come

At the end of the day any drug abuse is going to end in tears the more drugs are legal the greater the potential for people to experiment with them and get into trouble

How about this for an angle? Friend of mine lives in London with his wife and son. They went walking on Hampstead Heath. The little boy picked up a discarded junkies syringe he'd found. Needless to say the parents spent an agonisng wait to find out if the needle contained hep or HIV virus. Luckily it had not been used.

This highlights the fact that heroin users have the potential to affect more people than just themselves

Legal and illegal drug use is responsible for a lot of social problems and the only way to deal with it is to remove the source

By far the easiest way would be to napalm the drug plantations for a start off. Next the suppliers and distributors. The dealer is the last in the chain

You cannot compare a pint of bitter with a wrap of coke or heroin

NACRO

Quote:You cannot compare a pint of bitter with a wrap of coke or heroin

Why not?
They are both potentially dangerous substances of abuse. The needle issue is more to do with the illegality of drugs and their underground nature than anything else.

Why can't people see there are no such thing as good or bad drugs, merely substances which have the potential for abuse.

Most of the problems the "anti-drugs" (whatever that means) people have come up with are the result of prohibition.