M3 - How have BMW done this?
14 May 2003, 11:12 PM
#211
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But in a less biased view, I will have to say some of its down to marketing, "ultimate driving machine" and all that!
But also i think its more the fact for a long time (i.e before the early nineties) the M3/3 series was the only decent driving "sensible" car which people would want to drive everyday.
Now don't come back with "what about this.... that and the other because" they don't percieve the image the BMW percieves.
Now ok that image is defintley slipping even, my grandad said the other day that BMW and Mercedes (not that we're bringing anythin new into this convo) have had there day and its starting to go to less badge orientated makes (i.e Audi and Saab) as they represent better quality, and slowy the residuals are slipping as are sales, as Audi in the main are becoming a bigger player with in the Executive and Performance vehicle market.
Now the fact people have been "brainwashed" into thinking that the M3 is the "ultimate driving machine" is all because when you say GTI most people think...Golf because its what started the ball roleing all those years ago back in 77, before I was born but even people who are very young know this. Its the same thing the first luxury-performance sedan.
Of course thats my opinion feel free to say that its utter bollocks.
But also i think its more the fact for a long time (i.e before the early nineties) the M3/3 series was the only decent driving "sensible" car which people would want to drive everyday.
Now don't come back with "what about this.... that and the other because" they don't percieve the image the BMW percieves.
Now ok that image is defintley slipping even, my grandad said the other day that BMW and Mercedes (not that we're bringing anythin new into this convo) have had there day and its starting to go to less badge orientated makes (i.e Audi and Saab) as they represent better quality, and slowy the residuals are slipping as are sales, as Audi in the main are becoming a bigger player with in the Executive and Performance vehicle market.
Now the fact people have been "brainwashed" into thinking that the M3 is the "ultimate driving machine" is all because when you say GTI most people think...Golf because its what started the ball roleing all those years ago back in 77, before I was born but even people who are very young know this. Its the same thing the first luxury-performance sedan.
Of course thats my opinion feel free to say that its utter bollocks.
14 May 2003, 11:17 PM
#212
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Eezything to answer, voortbroder, vee haz been ze vun place vair fazshism lasted riaight intu the lait tewentiev sentry, ve av cheep laiber 'nd we done wurree abaht anythin elze... so lone asz the nateevs keep workin then ve will always keep our forher happy.
Zlave laiber woz ez-yer but nut availabul theez daiz.
4 legs bad... 3 legs good... when on a fleg...
Zlave laiber woz ez-yer but nut availabul theez daiz.
4 legs bad... 3 legs good... when on a fleg...
14 May 2003, 11:22 PM
#213
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Also if we are bringing the likes of Subaru and Evo into this, (promise i will stop writing soon!) They are aimed at different markets dare I say "boy racer" with money or in relative speaking money, is who Scoobs etc are aimed at. Because it has to be said Subarus are built like ****, and if you take the "old" belief of build quality of the BMW of being like a brick **** house, then there is a different target market. But saying all that I would never buy a BMW just because of the image that it now perieves "w@nker drivers, stuck up dealers, etc", but now my little pro Audi bit, I recently heard or read somewhere that Audi is seen to some as a grown up Subaru, ok i know lots will disagree! But on paper its right: power and traction(4WD) = speed, but Audi offers better than BMW quality and its very subtle. And yes "**** steering" I am guessing some of you will be saying but, all thats changing so take a closer look.
That was an advertisment on behalf of Audi, lol sorry am obsessed
That was an advertisment on behalf of Audi, lol sorry am obsessed
14 May 2003, 11:43 PM
#214
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###
Now the fact people have been "brainwashed" into thinking that the M3 is the "ultimate driving machine" is all because when you say GTI most people think...Golf because its what started the ball roleing all those years ago back in 77, before I was born but even people who are very young know this. Its the same thing the first luxury-performance sedan.
###
The Golf GTI does have a place in History... but I think long after the speed thing (it wasn't that fast in raw numbers) or the OK handling thing (never really top notch until the Pirelli +1s' were fitted) has been forgotten it will be the bit in its name that will be the thing of note... it brought FUEL INJECTION to the masses at that time no Aston, Jag, Maserati, Lambo or Ferrari had Electronic FI except as a very expensive option... to me that is what changed the 'rules' in performance cars...
M3... nothing special and it is nothing at all compared to the MKII Jags of the 60's... they were the first real Performance Saloons ever...
Now the fact people have been "brainwashed" into thinking that the M3 is the "ultimate driving machine" is all because when you say GTI most people think...Golf because its what started the ball roleing all those years ago back in 77, before I was born but even people who are very young know this. Its the same thing the first luxury-performance sedan.
###
The Golf GTI does have a place in History... but I think long after the speed thing (it wasn't that fast in raw numbers) or the OK handling thing (never really top notch until the Pirelli +1s' were fitted) has been forgotten it will be the bit in its name that will be the thing of note... it brought FUEL INJECTION to the masses at that time no Aston, Jag, Maserati, Lambo or Ferrari had Electronic FI except as a very expensive option... to me that is what changed the 'rules' in performance cars...
M3... nothing special and it is nothing at all compared to the MKII Jags of the 60's... they were the first real Performance Saloons ever...
15 May 2003, 03:04 AM
#215
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Hi all
I don't care what other people say or think, as long as I like it then thats all that counts.
I have just sold my MY99 scooby and bought an E46 M3 SMG.
The cars are a world apart in terms of quality and gadgets in the M3, every little detail has been though of.
Its that I have just grown up and need somthing a bit more classy and comfortable.
I think I have grown out of the big spoilers and the boy racer image of the scoob.
James
I don't care what other people say or think, as long as I like it then thats all that counts.
I have just sold my MY99 scooby and bought an E46 M3 SMG.
The cars are a world apart in terms of quality and gadgets in the M3, every little detail has been though of.
Its that I have just grown up and need somthing a bit more classy and comfortable.
I think I have grown out of the big spoilers and the boy racer image of the scoob.
James
15 May 2003, 08:31 AM
#216
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a thousand pages in and no one else has brought this one up, so I will. 
Why would someone buy a 3 series over a mondeo or an Audi over a Skoda ?
Service.
You have a problem, it gets fixed; you get a courtesy car; you have the option of getting your car picked up and delivered to your home, and if you take it in yourself, you choose which brew of coffee you would like while you're shown round the RS6 / M5.
There's a world of difference between this and the nonsense people go through with some brands - trying to get a Ford or vauxhall sales person to talk to you when you're looking for a car is tough enough (from experience ), and if thats what they're like before they've got your money, it's no suprise they're worse after the cheque has cleared.
Now, to be clear, this is a very different point as to build quality and reliablity. Audi & BMW (for example) may be more, less or equally reliable to (say) Ford and Skoda. The real differentiator, however, is what the dealer does when there is a problem rather than the numbers or probability of a problem in the first case.
If you buy a BMW M3 or a Porche 911 you're buying a car, the perceived kudos & status of the brand _and_ the service and care that backs it up, its a complete package.
Why would someone buy a 3 series over a mondeo or an Audi over a Skoda ?
Service.
You have a problem, it gets fixed; you get a courtesy car; you have the option of getting your car picked up and delivered to your home, and if you take it in yourself, you choose which brew of coffee you would like while you're shown round the RS6 / M5.
There's a world of difference between this and the nonsense people go through with some brands - trying to get a Ford or vauxhall sales person to talk to you when you're looking for a car is tough enough (from experience
), and if thats what they're like before they've got your money, it's no suprise they're worse after the cheque has cleared.Now, to be clear, this is a very different point as to build quality and reliablity. Audi & BMW (for example) may be more, less or equally reliable to (say) Ford and Skoda. The real differentiator, however, is what the dealer does when there is a problem rather than the numbers or probability of a problem in the first case.
If you buy a BMW M3 or a Porche 911 you're buying a car, the perceived kudos & status of the brand _and_ the service and care that backs it up, its a complete package.
15 May 2003, 08:33 AM
#217
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The Golf GTI does have a place in History... but I think long after the speed thing (it wasn't that fast in raw numbers) or the OK handling thing (never really top notch until the Pirelli +1s' were fitted) has been forgotten it will be the bit in its name that will be the thing of note... it brought FUEL INJECTION to the masses at that time no Aston, Jag, Maserati, Lambo or Ferrari had Electronic FI except as a very expensive option... to me that is what changed the 'rules' in performance cars...
More that it's because it bought affordable, practical, fun performance. Simple as that really.
As I'm sure you know MyCroft, there are many reasons why supercars of the early 70's weren't widely using fuel injection.
More that it's because it bought affordable, practical, fun performance. Simple as that really.
As I'm sure you know MyCroft, there are many reasons why supercars of the early 70's weren't widely using fuel injection.
15 May 2003, 08:52 AM
#218
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logix651
What do you think of the M3 SMG? I'm test driving one tomorrow (I have an sti7) Is the SMG as good as the journo's make out?
Many Thanks
Matt
(p.s. sorry for partial hijack on topic but its relevant....sort of
What do you think of the M3 SMG? I'm test driving one tomorrow (I have an sti7) Is the SMG as good as the journo's make out?
Many Thanks
Matt
(p.s. sorry for partial hijack on topic but its relevant....sort of
15 May 2003, 09:10 AM
#219
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It is interesting - there is a thread on BM3W asking if any SMG drivers would make the same choice the next time around, and all say "yes", and I think everyone who has changed their M3SMG to a new MY one all ticked the SMG option again.
One thing to watch out for - it is NOT an auto. As such, a 2 hour test drive will not give you a feel for what it does. You need a MINIMUM of 1-2 days. Lots of things you get used to doing:
-forcing a downchange coming up to a roundabout - blip the throttle,
-smoothing gearchanges, lift off mid change
-then there's the S6 change - change gear at 7k rpm+ under acceleration, its awsome!
-In the auto modes, the car needs about 15 miles to adapt to your driving style to smooth the changes and know when to hold/down/up change
-Launch control, need I say more
I have (as you have guessed, a SMG). Was very reluctant as I thought it was not too hot on the first test drive. I went for a second, longer drive and it all came together. I read up on some of the things to/not to do and I love it. Great for our real world of traffic.
The sinlge best bit is the throttle blip it does on a downchange. It still makes me smile!
One thing to watch out for - it is NOT an auto. As such, a 2 hour test drive will not give you a feel for what it does. You need a MINIMUM of 1-2 days. Lots of things you get used to doing:
-forcing a downchange coming up to a roundabout - blip the throttle,
-smoothing gearchanges, lift off mid change
-then there's the S6 change - change gear at 7k rpm+ under acceleration, its awsome!
-In the auto modes, the car needs about 15 miles to adapt to your driving style to smooth the changes and know when to hold/down/up change
-Launch control, need I say more
I have (as you have guessed, a SMG). Was very reluctant as I thought it was not too hot on the first test drive. I went for a second, longer drive and it all came together. I read up on some of the things to/not to do and I love it. Great for our real world of traffic.
The sinlge best bit is the throttle blip it does on a downchange. It still makes me smile!
15 May 2003, 10:11 AM
#220
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Mycroft,
If my memory serves me correctly didn't the early Mk1 Golf GTI's use Bosch Motronic fuel injection which was in part a mechanical system - the full electronic systems didn't appear until the mid-80's I think.
Please correct me if I am wrong and I know it doesn't matter, but the history of car design is interesting is it not?
Also to whoever said the 60's Jag MkII's were proper performance saloons - well said. A 3.8 straight 6/disc brakes all round/RWD in a saloon body all for a fairly affordable price - BMW should take note on the price bit ;-)
Regards,
tiggers.
If my memory serves me correctly didn't the early Mk1 Golf GTI's use Bosch Motronic fuel injection which was in part a mechanical system - the full electronic systems didn't appear until the mid-80's I think.
Please correct me if I am wrong and I know it doesn't matter, but the history of car design is interesting is it not?
Also to whoever said the 60's Jag MkII's were proper performance saloons - well said. A 3.8 straight 6/disc brakes all round/RWD in a saloon body all for a fairly affordable price - BMW should take note on the price bit ;-)
Regards,
tiggers.
15 May 2003, 11:29 AM
#221
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Skittles
Cheers Mate. It just so happens that the demo car at local garage has SMG. I hadn't really considered it before, but the more I think about it - it sounds pretty good.
I just hope that the 'go' doesn't dissapoint me. I know it will be quicker than the sti but will it 'feel' quicker. The driving experience is number 1 priority.
Thanks
Cheers Mate. It just so happens that the demo car at local garage has SMG. I hadn't really considered it before, but the more I think about it - it sounds pretty good.
I just hope that the 'go' doesn't dissapoint me. I know it will be quicker than the sti but will it 'feel' quicker. The driving experience is number 1 priority.
Thanks
15 May 2003, 01:12 PM
#222
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Why would someone buy a 3 series over a mondeo or an Audi over a Skoda ?
Service.
Service.
BMW, like many "premium" brands, sell themselves on the strength of their name. They do not provide significantly better service, performance or quality for the price premium you pay.
15 May 2003, 01:26 PM
#223
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###
If my memory serves me correctly didn't the early Mk1 Golf GTI's use Bosch Motronic fuel injection which was in part a mechanical system - the full electronic systems didn't appear until the mid-80's I think
###
That is indeed the system and the clue might be in the 'tronic' bit it used an Integrated Circuit which tied the ignition to the injection that was the breakthrough in my books... suddenly cheap and truly accurate control of this process became a mere bagatelle.
60's Jags...
Love them... The MKII still handle like a dream... the roadholding level is quite low but the way they handle is a dream...
If my memory serves me correctly didn't the early Mk1 Golf GTI's use Bosch Motronic fuel injection which was in part a mechanical system - the full electronic systems didn't appear until the mid-80's I think
###
That is indeed the system and the clue might be in the 'tronic' bit it used an Integrated Circuit which tied the ignition to the injection that was the breakthrough in my books... suddenly cheap and truly accurate control of this process became a mere bagatelle.
60's Jags...
Love them... The MKII still handle like a dream... the roadholding level is quite low but the way they handle is a dream...
15 May 2003, 01:53 PM
#225
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Mycroft,
So my memory didn't let me down on that one then - wow!
Yeah I see where you're coming from and I think you're in some way right as to why the Golf GTI is a landmark in car design.
Additionally though (as someone else already part way mentioned) it was the first truly popular hot hatch bringing practicality, performance and most importantly reliability to the masses.
Still the best lookig of all the Golf's as well - styled by Giguaro (sp?) if I remmber correctly.
Regards,
tiggers.
So my memory didn't let me down on that one then - wow!
Yeah I see where you're coming from and I think you're in some way right as to why the Golf GTI is a landmark in car design.
Additionally though (as someone else already part way mentioned) it was the first truly popular hot hatch bringing practicality, performance and most importantly reliability to the masses.
Still the best lookig of all the Golf's as well - styled by Giguaro (sp?) if I remmber correctly.
Regards,
tiggers.
15 May 2003, 02:12 PM
#226
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Giugiaro, yes... but I think the Brothers Giugiaro stole the design from Pinifarina... take a look at the 128 3P from Fiat... that car was the 'birth' of the modern hot hatch IMO... just had a look and found this... 4? years before the GTI... look at the shape and even more if you see one for real... the space utilisation. Production started in '71...
http://www.mirafiori.com/~courtney/128/corral/anthony/anthony3p.html
http://www.mirafiori.com/~courtney/128/corral/anthony/anthony3p.html
15 May 2003, 02:20 PM
#228
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In fact you can say that all modern FWD cars owe there existance to the 128... they were the first car to solve the 'jack it up as you turn' problem that dogged all FWDs' until Franco Barchetti had the inspiration to relocate the suspension/steering points...
yep, the more I think about it the 128 range from Fiat was quite the most groundbreaking of all of them...
yep, the more I think about it the 128 range from Fiat was quite the most groundbreaking of all of them...
15 May 2003, 02:21 PM
#229
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Mycroft,
Yeah - you could be right!
Of course it took VW to make it reliable and their marketing people to sell it to the masses.
Did you know that the Golf GTI was nearly killed by the marketing department in 1976 - it was days away from never happening. IMHO they later killed the Mk2/3 and 4 GTI's by making them overblown lardy arsed shopping trollies and to add insult to injury stuck a diesel engine in the later ones.
tiggers.
Yeah - you could be right!
Of course it took VW to make it reliable and their marketing people to sell it to the masses.
Did you know that the Golf GTI was nearly killed by the marketing department in 1976 - it was days away from never happening. IMHO they later killed the Mk2/3 and 4 GTI's by making them overblown lardy arsed shopping trollies and to add insult to injury stuck a diesel engine in the later ones.
tiggers.
15 May 2003, 02:29 PM
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There is a maxim in the Marketing World... ''Be 'first' and pay the price... copy and come 'second' and reap the reward''... as with the FIAT so it was with the Soarer... but you all know that anyway.
It is a truism....
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/15/2003 2:31:50 PM]
It is a truism....
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/15/2003 2:31:50 PM]
15 May 2003, 07:31 PM
#231
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The first proper hot 'hatch' was the Mini Cooper, and a year later, the S. Ok, so it wasn't a hatch, but it was hatch shaped. Gave those coppers in their Jags something to think about (when the crims realised what a tool the Mini was)
A MK1 Mini Cooper 'S' 1275, would do 0-60 in 11.2 seconds, officially. Some mags got it down to the low 10s. Impressive for a car in 1963, espcially as it was only a 1275. Nothing to touch it on the twisties either
Anyway, the M3 vs Scoob debate. E46 M3 for me everyday What's all this 'bout saloons anyway, the only M3 saloon they've done is the E36 M3 Saloon. Goes almost as well as the Coupe / Cab, but didn't have as nice seats or a few other touches. People usually think they're M3 badged 318s, which is always a laugh
Rich
A MK1 Mini Cooper 'S' 1275, would do 0-60 in 11.2 seconds, officially. Some mags got it down to the low 10s. Impressive for a car in 1963, espcially as it was only a 1275. Nothing to touch it on the twisties either
Anyway, the M3 vs Scoob debate. E46 M3 for me everyday
What's all this 'bout saloons anyway, the only M3 saloon they've done is the E36 M3 Saloon. Goes almost as well as the Coupe / Cab, but didn't have as nice seats or a few other touches. People usually think they're M3 badged 318s, which is always a laugh Rich
15 May 2003, 07:41 PM
#232
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Issigonis could not convince Austin-Morris that a hatch was worth having... the earlier A40 was a hatchback... but was a dead-duck... the first 'hatch' pre-dates that... but to get back to the Mini... Issigonis' design could accomodate a hatch but the weight penalty would have ruined that very speed advantage its light weight gifted it... to make it a hatch would have added 95lbs to the car to keep the stiffness [and the wonderful handling/roadholding] or 45lbs but the car would not be anywhere near as taught... in the end they went for putting a boot on the car calling it a Riley Elf and Wolseley 'something' as that actually added to the stiffness for the extra 35lb weight penalty.
[EDIT...Wolseley HORNET... hahaha]
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/15/2003 7:46:34 PM]
[EDIT...Wolseley HORNET... hahaha
][Edited by Mycroft - 5/15/2003 7:46:34 PM]
15 May 2003, 10:03 PM
#233
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I have been willing myself not to comment on this thread but its finally got the better of me LOL.
I now work for a BMW dealer and can honestly say they are no better built than the Rovers I cut my teeth on whilst doing my apprenticeship.
BMW's are no better than any other car.I asked one day why the times allowed for jobs were so poor IE 15 minutes to do a 1st year oil service on anything 99MY or newer and was told it was to be able say ownership costs are very low
.Yeah really so thats why we have to suck the oil out the dipstick tube on your new M3.Personally I wouldnt do that to my 500 quid Cavalier.
To anyone thinking of buying a used E36 M3 have a drive first and then listen to the creaks and rattles dont be sucked in by the BS marketing used.
And yes going back to a previous post BMW's do suffer with head gasket failures(usually the four pots),thermostat problems,water pump impeller failure.
I could go on and on about the various problems on these things but I wont will finish by saying that probably the best cars I have ever worked on came from Japan(and this is going to hurt cos I have to agree with Mycroft)and were the LS400.
Steve
I now work for a BMW dealer and can honestly say they are no better built than the Rovers I cut my teeth on whilst doing my apprenticeship.
BMW's are no better than any other car.I asked one day why the times allowed for jobs were so poor IE 15 minutes to do a 1st year oil service on anything 99MY or newer and was told it was to be able say ownership costs are very low
.Yeah really so thats why we have to suck the oil out the dipstick tube on your new M3.Personally I wouldnt do that to my 500 quid Cavalier.To anyone thinking of buying a used E36 M3 have a drive first and then listen to the creaks and rattles dont be sucked in by the BS marketing used.
And yes going back to a previous post BMW's do suffer with head gasket failures(usually the four pots),thermostat problems,water pump impeller failure.
I could go on and on about the various problems on these things but I wont will finish by saying that probably the best cars I have ever worked on came from Japan(and this is going to hurt cos I have to agree with Mycroft)and were the LS400.
Steve
16 May 2003, 12:57 AM
#234
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>> I now work for a BMW dealer and can honestly say they are no better built than the Rovers I cut my teeth on whilst doing my apprenticeship. <<
Good grief ....... can't be true surely ......Now there's a thing ... would you believe it? Well, er Yes I would .....
Good grief ....... can't be true surely ......Now there's a thing ... would you believe it? Well, er Yes I would .....
16 May 2003, 07:14 PM
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I also work for BMW, and disagree
I've grown up around Rover's, still get to drive the new ones on a regular basis. The BMWs are much better built. Although I dont have much experience with the E36 in terms of driving them, the E46 I do. Rovers/MGs do not compare in terms of build quality (This is from the cockpit, I don't work on them).
What is it you do for BMW?
Rich
I've grown up around Rover's, still get to drive the new ones on a regular basis. The BMWs are much better built. Although I dont have much experience with the E36 in terms of driving them, the E46 I do. Rovers/MGs do not compare in terms of build quality (This is from the cockpit, I don't work on them
). What is it you do for BMW?
Rich
16 May 2003, 08:11 PM
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LOL.
Only at a main dealer not for HQ.
I have worked for Toyota(was a Lexus Tech as well)also worked for a Sub/Isuzu dealer for 7 years.
I feel I am qualified to comment on the build quality and you just sound brainwashed Rich in all honesty mate(no offence intended BTW).
A bit like some of the seniors where I work.
Steve
Only at a main dealer not for HQ.
I have worked for Toyota(was a Lexus Tech as well)also worked for a Sub/Isuzu dealer for 7 years.
I feel I am qualified to comment on the build quality and you just sound brainwashed Rich in all honesty mate(no offence intended BTW).
A bit like some of the seniors where I work.
Steve
16 May 2003, 08:34 PM
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I do sound a bit brainwashed, don't I? 
I used to hate BMWs
I'm no senior, quite the opposite. I'm 18
I don't own a BMW, although I could afford to. I run a 2001 Saxo VTS and a cammed/head/lightened 1275 Mini with straight cut drops etc They're not my 'thing'. Just I think they are pretty damn good.
Rich
PS - although saying that, an E46 M3 is my 'thing'
I used to hate BMWs
I'm no senior, quite the opposite. I'm 18
I don't own a BMW, although I could afford to. I run a 2001 Saxo VTS and a cammed/head/lightened 1275 Mini with straight cut drops etc They're not my 'thing'. Just I think they are pretty damn good.
Rich
PS - although saying that, an E46 M3 is my 'thing'
17 May 2003, 12:34 AM
#239
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Are some people here smoking crack? I have owned a BMW (current) and a Rover (former) back to back. I still smile when I think about how lucky I am to have moved.
Pleeeease, if you think they are of the same build quality, then.... well, just keep off the dope.
I can understand if BMWs are not your thing, but lets talk just a little bit of sense, otherwise this may (quite rightly) move this thread to Muppet Show.... Jeez, the next thing you will say is that a Soarer is the best thing this side of a Jelly mold
I would be REALLY interested to hear what these informed people with supposed jobs at BMW do!?!?!??!?!?!??! I have an idea though.... and it does not involve driving the stock!
[Edited by Skittles - 5/17/2003 12:40:07 AM]
Pleeeease, if you think they are of the same build quality, then.... well, just keep off the dope.
I can understand if BMWs are not your thing, but lets talk just a little bit of sense, otherwise this may (quite rightly) move this thread to Muppet Show.... Jeez, the next thing you will say is that a Soarer is the best thing this side of a Jelly mold
I would be REALLY interested to hear what these informed people with supposed jobs at BMW do!?!?!??!?!?!??! I have an idea though.... and it does not involve driving the stock!
[Edited by Skittles - 5/17/2003 12:40:07 AM]
