M3 - How have BMW done this?
14 May 2003, 12:10 PM
#181
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Skittles,
'The car in front' is actually quite clever as it works two ways. Yes you can say it was Toyota being a little OTT, but when it is printed on a dealer sticker and palced in the rear window of a Toyota it actually becomes quite clever.
The 'ultimate driving machine' is frankly just arrogant bollox and plainly not true!!
Crap post btw ;-)
tiggers.
'The car in front' is actually quite clever as it works two ways. Yes you can say it was Toyota being a little OTT, but when it is printed on a dealer sticker and palced in the rear window of a Toyota it actually becomes quite clever.
The 'ultimate driving machine' is frankly just arrogant bollox and plainly not true!!
Crap post btw ;-)
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 12:15 PM
#182
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Tiggers,
Quote
Subaru sold the Impreza on the back of massive Rally success. (Proven)
BMW built their reputation by telling the public that their car was better than everyone elses. (not proven)
Both of these marketing ploys are the same, you buy the Impreza you potentially think your getting McCrae's Rally Car, the car you buy is not related to the image. You buy the BMW and you think your getting the Ultimate driving machine,it bears no relation to whatever the Ultimate driving machine is.
When I bought both I never paid any attention to these quotes from the manufacturers. However I also don't have an issue with people who believe it. Its kinda true in both cases, BMW are better than the average car on the road and the Sti is as you said a potential rally car.
Bob,
I know why you bought the car and I think it sounds great. I was just pointing out that your reasoning is as valid as Miss Marple in accounts who buys a Corsa as the insurance is cheap, its got a 3 year warranty and they do it in a nice colour.
Quote
Subaru sold the Impreza on the back of massive Rally success. (Proven)
BMW built their reputation by telling the public that their car was better than everyone elses. (not proven)
Both of these marketing ploys are the same, you buy the Impreza you potentially think your getting McCrae's Rally Car, the car you buy is not related to the image. You buy the BMW and you think your getting the Ultimate driving machine,it bears no relation to whatever the Ultimate driving machine is.
When I bought both I never paid any attention to these quotes from the manufacturers. However I also don't have an issue with people who believe it. Its kinda true in both cases, BMW are better than the average car on the road and the Sti is as you said a potential rally car.
Bob,
I know why you bought the car and I think it sounds great. I was just pointing out that your reasoning is as valid as Miss Marple in accounts who buys a Corsa as the insurance is cheap, its got a 3 year warranty and they do it in a nice colour.
14 May 2003, 12:25 PM
#183
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Errr, and every car in front is a Toyota? Is that true?
You must understand, advertising slogans and more generally the adverts are not always supposed to be exact fact! e.g. I am not always refershed when I have a coke, saying "no" to marriage does not always need to be done in a large field with a Ford Focus, Carslberg would not necessarily give you a wad of cash to start a business, there is not always a beautiful lady willing to give you sugar for your nescafe, buying an Omega does not make you a spy, there is not a sad man getting apples posted into a juicer through his door, Freeserve is not just for hippies, its not always good to talk, DHL documents do not fly through glass at the speed of light, Midland bank didn't always like to say yes (or what ever it was!), every car insurance company claiming to be the cheapest is not, you don't get ladies flocking to you when you squirt a bit of lynx.......
...BMW is not the ultimate driving machine out of every vehicle in the world, and not every Toyota is im-passable
Look, I'm really sorry if any of the above bursts and bubbles you may have had.
Get the drift?
You must understand, advertising slogans and more generally the adverts are not always supposed to be exact fact! e.g. I am not always refershed when I have a coke, saying "no" to marriage does not always need to be done in a large field with a Ford Focus, Carslberg would not necessarily give you a wad of cash to start a business, there is not always a beautiful lady willing to give you sugar for your nescafe, buying an Omega does not make you a spy, there is not a sad man getting apples posted into a juicer through his door, Freeserve is not just for hippies, its not always good to talk, DHL documents do not fly through glass at the speed of light, Midland bank didn't always like to say yes (or what ever it was!), every car insurance company claiming to be the cheapest is not, you don't get ladies flocking to you when you squirt a bit of lynx.......
...BMW is not the ultimate driving machine out of every vehicle in the world, and not every Toyota is im-passable
Look, I'm really sorry if any of the above bursts and bubbles you may have had.
Get the drift?
No one thought I had a pay rise when I had one.
14 May 2003, 12:33 PM
#185
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camk,
Quote:
"Subaru sold the Impreza on the back of massive Rally success. (Proven)
BMW built their reputation by telling the public that their car was better than everyone elses. (not proven)"
Not my quote I'm afraid - you really will have to read these posts a little harder.
Having said that the quote is spot on and you are wrong saying the marketing ploys are the same. One is based on fact, the other on fantasy.
Subaru say buy our cars because we've won rally championships - they don't say the car you're buying is the rally car whereas BMW do say the car you're buying is the 'ultimate driving machine' which is bollox.
QED
tiggers.
Quote:
"Subaru sold the Impreza on the back of massive Rally success. (Proven)
BMW built their reputation by telling the public that their car was better than everyone elses. (not proven)"
Not my quote I'm afraid - you really will have to read these posts a little harder.
Having said that the quote is spot on and you are wrong saying the marketing ploys are the same. One is based on fact, the other on fantasy.
Subaru say buy our cars because we've won rally championships - they don't say the car you're buying is the rally car whereas BMW do say the car you're buying is the 'ultimate driving machine' which is bollox.
QED
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 12:37 PM
#186
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Skittles,
Now you're making me laugh - stop it.
You're right though it's not really the marketing people or BMW just the average Joe's stupidity to be sucked in I guess. As a marketing exercise you'd have to say it's been rather too successful.
tiggers.
Now you're making me laugh - stop it.
You're right though it's not really the marketing people or BMW just the average Joe's stupidity to be sucked in I guess. As a marketing exercise you'd have to say it's been rather too successful.
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 12:37 PM
#187
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Nice - thanks for your words of wisdom on the MR2, wish I had consulted you on buying the car before I spent 6 months investigating it.
The MK2 is better in my opinion because:
It doesn't rot around the wings
It is more refined
It has a higher standard spec
It is more powerful and faster
Has more storage space
Is less dated in appearance
Is more solid
As for handling, there really isn't much difference as far as I glean from the hundreds of members on IMOC club. The MK1 may be a little better, but I bought it for the other reasons as well which the MK1 didn't fulfill, or did you not read my post properly? There are video's of MK1's spinning off at racetracks where the MK2 just drives straight on through. The MK2 is an excellent handlig car because of its setup, you cannot say it is not good at handling because another car is better - there will always be better things about other cars.
If you want to add weight to your argument you would need to start talking about which revision of the MK2 MR2 I have but I guess you just believe that whatever I have bought is just for image right?
Did you know I chose the Revision 2 or are you assuming I just bought purely for image which I have stated is not the case twice before which you have overlooked, in which case I wouldnt know about the different revisions.
If it was based purely on image I would have bought the 2.0 Coupe with the 3S-FE non GTi-16 engine and would be paying a lot less in insurance. But I guess you knew that.
I chose the Revision 2 MK2 because of its revised suspension and specification package, and the 3S-GE engine because of its mid-range engine, I cant afford the Turbo insurance but the N/A is still a quick car, and I opted for the Sunroof model so that I don't have to suffer the leaks of the T-Bar. If I wanted the best image MR2 I would have bought a T-bar and cared more about image than leaks - but I didn't.
Guess you are right, I just want to pose and havent thought this through at all.
The wording of Toyota is suggestive, unlike the statement of BMW who actually write 'the ultimate driving machine'.
I keep saying I think that the BM is a good make. I keep saying that you personally have bought it for the correct reasons because it suits your needs, I'm not arguing against you. All I'm trying to say is that I know loads of people who buy them for the badge and image. Whether thay get a good car too is not being contested here. Its the original thread, BMW have built up a frenzy about their cars and many people fall for it without trying other equally good makes.
The MK2 is better in my opinion because:
It doesn't rot around the wings
It is more refined
It has a higher standard spec
It is more powerful and faster
Has more storage space
Is less dated in appearance
Is more solid
As for handling, there really isn't much difference as far as I glean from the hundreds of members on IMOC club. The MK1 may be a little better, but I bought it for the other reasons as well which the MK1 didn't fulfill, or did you not read my post properly? There are video's of MK1's spinning off at racetracks where the MK2 just drives straight on through. The MK2 is an excellent handlig car because of its setup, you cannot say it is not good at handling because another car is better - there will always be better things about other cars.
If you want to add weight to your argument you would need to start talking about which revision of the MK2 MR2 I have but I guess you just believe that whatever I have bought is just for image right?
Did you know I chose the Revision 2 or are you assuming I just bought purely for image which I have stated is not the case twice before which you have overlooked, in which case I wouldnt know about the different revisions.
If it was based purely on image I would have bought the 2.0 Coupe with the 3S-FE non GTi-16 engine and would be paying a lot less in insurance. But I guess you knew that.
I chose the Revision 2 MK2 because of its revised suspension and specification package, and the 3S-GE engine because of its mid-range engine, I cant afford the Turbo insurance but the N/A is still a quick car, and I opted for the Sunroof model so that I don't have to suffer the leaks of the T-Bar. If I wanted the best image MR2 I would have bought a T-bar and cared more about image than leaks - but I didn't.
Guess you are right, I just want to pose and havent thought this through at all.
The wording of Toyota is suggestive, unlike the statement of BMW who actually write 'the ultimate driving machine'.
I keep saying I think that the BM is a good make. I keep saying that you personally have bought it for the correct reasons because it suits your needs, I'm not arguing against you. All I'm trying to say is that I know loads of people who buy them for the badge and image. Whether thay get a good car too is not being contested here. Its the original thread, BMW have built up a frenzy about their cars and many people fall for it without trying other equally good makes.
14 May 2003, 12:46 PM
#188
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I knew all that, I can read minds on the web... its a great asset!
To be honest, I would go for a MK2 too, I was simply making a point that it is easy for someone else to just assume you are an idiot and made an uninfomed decision, just becuase it is not the same as yours!
Tiggers: I couldn't think of any more, but I enjoyed writing that one!
To be honest, I would go for a MK2 too, I was simply making a point that it is easy for someone else to just assume you are an idiot and made an uninfomed decision, just becuase it is not the same as yours!
Tiggers: I couldn't think of any more, but I enjoyed writing that one!
14 May 2003, 12:54 PM
#189
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Tiggers -
That is pretty much what I have tried to say, its a marketing ploy I dont agree with although it is hugely successful. The general public do get sucked in.
I think you and I are saying exactly the same thing about marketing and Skittles and the others are thinking we are slagging BM's which isn't the case.
To the MR2 hairdresser jibes -
You are proving my point, image is pre-concieved.
If you knew someone who drove a 2 seat mid engine sportscar which has good looks (Diablo, Ferrari, Elise, Esprit, etc.) you would say - wow, I like your car.
Just because the MR2 has succeeded in making this type of car affordable you call it a hairdressers car. Nice reasoning.
Hairdressers arent interested in sportscars, they are more likely to drive: Street KA, 206 CC, 3 series Cabriolet (I know a hairdresser with one), Escort Cab, Golf GTi Cab, Puma etc.
The Mr2 shares the same platform arrangement of many supercars - yet you call it a hairdressers car because the everyday person can afford one? Great reasoning, you really know your cars.
That is pretty much what I have tried to say, its a marketing ploy I dont agree with although it is hugely successful. The general public do get sucked in.
I think you and I are saying exactly the same thing about marketing and Skittles and the others are thinking we are slagging BM's which isn't the case.
To the MR2 hairdresser jibes -
You are proving my point, image is pre-concieved.
If you knew someone who drove a 2 seat mid engine sportscar which has good looks (Diablo, Ferrari, Elise, Esprit, etc.) you would say - wow, I like your car.
Just because the MR2 has succeeded in making this type of car affordable you call it a hairdressers car. Nice reasoning.
Hairdressers arent interested in sportscars, they are more likely to drive: Street KA, 206 CC, 3 series Cabriolet (I know a hairdresser with one), Escort Cab, Golf GTi Cab, Puma etc.
The Mr2 shares the same platform arrangement of many supercars - yet you call it a hairdressers car because the everyday person can afford one? Great reasoning, you really know your cars.
14 May 2003, 12:59 PM
#190
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Skittles -
Accepted point mate.
I know someone with an M3 that couldn't tell you why they bought it other than its expensive and its a BMW. Honest.
Think we have exhausted this one now, general public isn't stupid but there are plenty of label hunters out there.
Is that a fair summary?
Rob
Accepted point mate.
I know someone with an M3 that couldn't tell you why they bought it other than its expensive and its a BMW. Honest.
Think we have exhausted this one now, general public isn't stupid but there are plenty of label hunters out there.
Is that a fair summary?
Rob
14 May 2003, 01:00 PM
#191
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MR2 Rob,
Don't worry about it I get called a hairdresser too just because I drive a Honda Coupe - who cares - I enjoy it.
I think we are pretty much aligned - right back at the start of the post I said it was the 'brainwashing' that I find annoying not the products themselves and I think the 'brainwashing' is responsible for some of the driver's behaviour and the car's image.
I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people were a little more intelligent or had a bit more common sense rather than behaving like sheep all the time. Recently I test drove a Seat Leon Cupra with a possible view to buying one - I eventually went for the Honda, but the number of people who said to me - 'My God - how could you go from a Scooby to a Seat?"
What's their problem - I simply chose the Honda as I genuinely preferred it although the Seat is a great car for the money - who cares what badge is on the front.
tiggers.
Don't worry about it I get called a hairdresser too just because I drive a Honda Coupe - who cares - I enjoy it.
I think we are pretty much aligned - right back at the start of the post I said it was the 'brainwashing' that I find annoying not the products themselves and I think the 'brainwashing' is responsible for some of the driver's behaviour and the car's image.
I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people were a little more intelligent or had a bit more common sense rather than behaving like sheep all the time. Recently I test drove a Seat Leon Cupra with a possible view to buying one - I eventually went for the Honda, but the number of people who said to me - 'My God - how could you go from a Scooby to a Seat?"
What's their problem - I simply chose the Honda as I genuinely preferred it although the Seat is a great car for the money - who cares what badge is on the front.
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 01:04 PM
#192
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Relax I was just provoking. I get the odd hair dresser jibe as I have a convertible.
If I was spending £5k on a car, the MR2 would be up there on the list of potentials.
On a more serious note, it is a little annoying when people go on about some silly image and over look the car's abilities. This whole image thing is just in the eyes of the pi$$ taker, i.e. its their problem!
As for marketing, I'll say the same again, most marketing is arrogant. Saying Toyotas are im-passable, Lynx gets you laid etc etc. My point is simply that you can take as much offence from a whole bunch of advertising ploys. It sjust an advert at the end of the day. IMHO, if you think people buy BMs becuase they genuinely believe they are "the ultimate... da da da" then I think you underestimate humans.
Not everyone goes into detail when buying a product. When I buy a car I do a lot of research. When I buy a cooker, I go by the brand. I don't know about cookers, but I buy a brand that I trust, and one that has lashings of stainless steel! Others will do their research and come up with a list of comparitive specs etc... I wouldn't expect someone to criticise me for this.
[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 1:09:10 PM]
If I was spending £5k on a car, the MR2 would be up there on the list of potentials.
On a more serious note, it is a little annoying when people go on about some silly image and over look the car's abilities. This whole image thing is just in the eyes of the pi$$ taker, i.e. its their problem!
As for marketing, I'll say the same again, most marketing is arrogant. Saying Toyotas are im-passable, Lynx gets you laid etc etc. My point is simply that you can take as much offence from a whole bunch of advertising ploys. It sjust an advert at the end of the day. IMHO, if you think people buy BMs becuase they genuinely believe they are "the ultimate... da da da" then I think you underestimate humans.
Not everyone goes into detail when buying a product. When I buy a car I do a lot of research. When I buy a cooker, I go by the brand. I don't know about cookers, but I buy a brand that I trust, and one that has lashings of stainless steel! Others will do their research and come up with a list of comparitive specs etc... I wouldn't expect someone to criticise me for this.
[Edited by Skittles - 5/14/2003 1:09:10 PM]
14 May 2003, 01:14 PM
#193
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Tiggers,
Accepted it wasn't your quote, however the Subaru one said something like buy the Rally Bred Impreza, however what you got was nothing like the Rally car. That is a fact. The car that won the rally championship is not the Impreza that you buy 'FACT' , however they are subtily saying that it is very similar. Which is definately not.
Its actually impossible however to say that the BMW is NOT and could not be the Ultimate Driving machine as its down to personal perception(there is no absolute measure of ultimate driving machine) and some guy may say that it is, therefore for him its the ultimate diving machine. Therefore is some circumstances for some people it WILL be the Ultimate Driving Machine as its not a definitive measurement. However the Impreza you buy never has won the WRC. A Car called the Impreza and looking a bit like it did.
Accepted it wasn't your quote, however the Subaru one said something like buy the Rally Bred Impreza, however what you got was nothing like the Rally car. That is a fact. The car that won the rally championship is not the Impreza that you buy 'FACT' , however they are subtily saying that it is very similar. Which is definately not.
Its actually impossible however to say that the BMW is NOT and could not be the Ultimate Driving machine as its down to personal perception(there is no absolute measure of ultimate driving machine) and some guy may say that it is, therefore for him its the ultimate diving machine. Therefore is some circumstances for some people it WILL be the Ultimate Driving Machine as its not a definitive measurement. However the Impreza you buy never has won the WRC. A Car called the Impreza and looking a bit like it did.
14 May 2003, 01:22 PM
#195
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camk,
Sorry, but you are talking bollox (AGAIN). Subaru do NOT and NEVER have claimed or hinted that the car you buy is the rally car. They merely say that their road car's design and engineering benefits from their rally success which it probably does. Read their literature - that's what it says in black and white.
Anyway I don't think we are ever going to agree so I will leave it at that.
tiggers.
Sorry, but you are talking bollox (AGAIN). Subaru do NOT and NEVER have claimed or hinted that the car you buy is the rally car. They merely say that their road car's design and engineering benefits from their rally success which it probably does. Read their literature - that's what it says in black and white.
Anyway I don't think we are ever going to agree so I will leave it at that.
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 01:48 PM
#197
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Springers final thought.........
Even though you may not agree with the next persons choice, relax in the knowledge that you alone are responsible for your decisions and that being individual is what makes us humans.
Be good to yourself, and each other.
chuckle to myself - If everything in life was as reliable as Gerry Springer.
Laters chaps
Rob
Even though you may not agree with the next persons choice, relax in the knowledge that you alone are responsible for your decisions and that being individual is what makes us humans.
Be good to yourself, and each other.
chuckle to myself - If everything in life was as reliable as Gerry Springer.
Laters chaps
Rob
14 May 2003, 01:59 PM
#198
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The BMW advert that used to pi55 me off the most was that one with the tennis racket and something along the lines of "the best way to get traction in a vehicle is from the rear, thus all BMW's are RWD".
Subaru, could have put out an advert saying "the best way to get traction is from whatever point is offering most at the time, i.e. 4WD.
However I think Audi could have done more with it as they are in direct competition with BMW, and could really have taken the pi55. Dropped the ball there IMO.
Subaru, could have put out an advert saying "the best way to get traction is from whatever point is offering most at the time, i.e. 4WD.
However I think Audi could have done more with it as they are in direct competition with BMW, and could really have taken the pi55. Dropped the ball there IMO.
14 May 2003, 02:04 PM
#199
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LOL, that would have been quite amusing.
Its the old Audi "vorz sprung durch technic" (or however it is said) that has become a household phrase... although not many people have gone and found out what it means (me included)
Its the old Audi "vorz sprung durch technic" (or however it is said) that has become a household phrase... although not many people have gone and found out what it means (me included)
14 May 2003, 02:26 PM
#201
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So if people who drive £40k cars that are not twice as good as £20k cars, are considered tossers...........then
What about people who wear designer clothes, are they tossers too?
I mean, I bought a Hugo boss shirt the other day for £60, it is certainly not £30 better than my Next one......what a tosser!
[Edited by davyboy - 5/14/2003 2:27:30 PM]
What about people who wear designer clothes, are they tossers too?
I mean, I bought a Hugo boss shirt the other day for £60, it is certainly not £30 better than my Next one......what a tosser!
[Edited by davyboy - 5/14/2003 2:27:30 PM]
14 May 2003, 03:02 PM
#202
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camk,
You really are quite tiresome old boy!!!!
It is a fact that many car manufacturers have implemented features in their road cars that have been in some way derived from their exploits in the world of motorsport, be that F1, saloon car racing, rallying or whatever (witness Honda's excellent VTEC engines).
I believe that this is the case with Subaru although I don't have the proof to hand hence use of the word probably. Unlike some I don't like to state something as a fact unless I have a precise knowledge of it being a fact. I'm sure some of the more avid Scooby fans on this board could come to my rescue on this point if required.
BTW have just re-read my posts and I think the bollox I've written is pretty good, but thanks for the suggestion ;-)
Not so kind regards,
tiggers.
You really are quite tiresome old boy!!!!
It is a fact that many car manufacturers have implemented features in their road cars that have been in some way derived from their exploits in the world of motorsport, be that F1, saloon car racing, rallying or whatever (witness Honda's excellent VTEC engines).
I believe that this is the case with Subaru although I don't have the proof to hand hence use of the word probably. Unlike some I don't like to state something as a fact unless I have a precise knowledge of it being a fact. I'm sure some of the more avid Scooby fans on this board could come to my rescue on this point if required.
BTW have just re-read my posts and I think the bollox I've written is pretty good, but thanks for the suggestion ;-)
Not so kind regards,
tiggers.
14 May 2003, 03:06 PM
#203
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BMW = Bubble-car Making Wonkers... 
Wierd motoring fact... Not one bubble car left the BMW factory under its own steam... the all left by rail...
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The was no road to the factory... even the work force arrived by rail... as did everything else...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 3:09:11 PM]
Wierd motoring fact... Not one bubble car left the BMW factory under its own steam... the all left by rail...
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The was no road to the factory... even the work force arrived by rail... as did everything else...
[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 3:09:11 PM]
14 May 2003, 10:59 PM
#209
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GIT correction GTI ... Ich einen qvestion you for...
Auto Union DI ... AUDIs .. are doze de vuns vot haff dem "doorsprings thru technologicals" adverts ? ... ho hum ....
How dya spell zat verd Bollards Pappa? ... Shaddup und homeverk getting on viv.....
Und heir zere ist vielen born every minutenn ....
Auto Union DI ... AUDIs .. are doze de vuns vot haff dem "doorsprings thru technologicals" adverts ? ... ho hum ....
How dya spell zat verd Bollards Pappa? ... Shaddup und homeverk getting on viv.....
Und heir zere ist vielen born every minutenn ....
14 May 2003, 11:06 PM
#210
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More seriously... ref UK car over-pricing.
Is there any rumour in the truth in BMW's European production figures whereby UK BMW buyers provide 30% or their European profit for 10% of there European production? Or is the merely propoganda? Has a ring of credence about it .... all things considered.
Another amomlie, anonma ... another puzzle ... Are RHD 3 series made in Seth Afrika .. oder Bavaria ....?
Treasure Island ... that's a cracker ....
Is there any rumour in the truth in BMW's European production figures whereby UK BMW buyers provide 30% or their European profit for 10% of there European production? Or is the merely propoganda? Has a ring of credence about it .... all things considered.
Another amomlie, anonma ... another puzzle ... Are RHD 3 series made in Seth Afrika .. oder Bavaria ....?
Treasure Island ... that's a cracker ....