M3 - How have BMW done this?
08 May 2003, 08:17 AM
#1
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My business partner is currently trying to work out if he can afford to order a new BMW M3 or maybe get a slightly older secondhand model instead. He asked me what I thought so I asked him why he had to have an M3 as opposed to any other car. His reply was that it was the ultimate saloon car in terms of outright speed and performance.
At this point I introduced him to the EVO's and Imprezas of this world not saying they were better necessarily, but that certain models had a claim to being as good if not better in the real-world performance stakes than the M3 and for quite a lot less money. His reply was that basically they were tinny, poorly put together Japanese rubbish whereas the M3 was a thoroughbred and I must be talking out of my **** if I felt they could hold a candle to the M3 in terms of performance.
So I showed him some stats and some magazine articles including the recent issue of EVO where the M3 was 4 seconds slower round Bedford Autodrome's West circuit than the EVO VIII lapping it at the same speed as a Porsche Cayenne (as much a slap round the face for the M3 as a pat on the back for the Cayenne in my opinion btw) whereupon he declared that Mitsubishi and Subaru must have paid the mags as nothing can live with the M3 on a track or a road.
Now I'm not saying EVO's or Scooby's are better than an M3 in all departments and I do think the BMW is a beautifully built car, but you do have to admit it is overpriced for what it is compared to the competition. My question is how have BMW managed to brainwash people such as this otherwise intelligent guy into thinking that no matter what evidence is presented to them they would still rather shell out an extra £10000 - $15000 for the 'ultimate driving machine' - it has to be the world's biggest marketing triumph.
Thank God I’ve not been sucked in like most of the rest of the Western world.
Regards,
tiggers.
At this point I introduced him to the EVO's and Imprezas of this world not saying they were better necessarily, but that certain models had a claim to being as good if not better in the real-world performance stakes than the M3 and for quite a lot less money. His reply was that basically they were tinny, poorly put together Japanese rubbish whereas the M3 was a thoroughbred and I must be talking out of my **** if I felt they could hold a candle to the M3 in terms of performance.
So I showed him some stats and some magazine articles including the recent issue of EVO where the M3 was 4 seconds slower round Bedford Autodrome's West circuit than the EVO VIII lapping it at the same speed as a Porsche Cayenne (as much a slap round the face for the M3 as a pat on the back for the Cayenne in my opinion btw) whereupon he declared that Mitsubishi and Subaru must have paid the mags as nothing can live with the M3 on a track or a road.
Now I'm not saying EVO's or Scooby's are better than an M3 in all departments and I do think the BMW is a beautifully built car, but you do have to admit it is overpriced for what it is compared to the competition. My question is how have BMW managed to brainwash people such as this otherwise intelligent guy into thinking that no matter what evidence is presented to them they would still rather shell out an extra £10000 - $15000 for the 'ultimate driving machine' - it has to be the world's biggest marketing triumph.
Thank God I’ve not been sucked in like most of the rest of the Western world.
Regards,
tiggers.
08 May 2003, 08:23 AM
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Your getting facts from magazines who test the cars professionally. Wheres he getting his data from ? Up his *** probably. Sounds like the sort of person that should be driving an M3 ? 
Paul
Paul
08 May 2003, 08:30 AM
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Its called marketing.
It's probaly true that Evo's and Imprezas, can hold a candle to the M3 in terms or performance, but they can not touch it in terms of quality and style, no where near!
Sometimes you guys have to realise, its not how fast you go, but how you go fast.
It's probaly true that Evo's and Imprezas, can hold a candle to the M3 in terms or performance, but they can not touch it in terms of quality and style, no where near!
Sometimes you guys have to realise, its not how fast you go, but how you go fast.
08 May 2003, 08:55 AM
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Well said Davvyboy....the m3 is light years ahead of the Japs in terms of styling and quality.....its all well going fast, but you have to admit that the Scoobies/evos do feel and look cheap and tinny, especially the interiors...the m3 on the other hand....gorgeous.
08 May 2003, 09:11 AM
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I've got two things to add to what will likely become another massive thread:
1. I've twice seen an E46 M3 under hard acceleration on the road, one from 30-100+ and the other from 70-100. In both cases they were very quick and I'd certainly expect my car to get hammered by one in a straight-line. I promise this thread will contain many, 'I raced an M3 and they ain't all that!' posts but in my experience you're going to need comfortably over 300bhp in a classic to see one off and even then your in trouble at the top end. In short, they really fly!!
2. I pulled up next to one at the lights the other day and I remember thinking to myself '
and M3, if I want to I could paste him from these light (4WD)' It was then that I looked over at it again and realised that is entirely where the comparison ends (performance). It looked a total beast and just oooozed quality. I'd imagine my scooby looked pretty pathetic next to it.
Sure, they cost a bundle but if I had the money I'd have one in a flash
1. I've twice seen an E46 M3 under hard acceleration on the road, one from 30-100+ and the other from 70-100. In both cases they were very quick and I'd certainly expect my car to get hammered by one in a straight-line. I promise this thread will contain many, 'I raced an M3 and they ain't all that!' posts but in my experience you're going to need comfortably over 300bhp in a classic to see one off and even then your in trouble at the top end. In short, they really fly!!
2. I pulled up next to one at the lights the other day and I remember thinking to myself '
and M3, if I want to I could paste him from these light (4WD)' It was then that I looked over at it again and realised that is entirely where the comparison ends (performance). It looked a total beast and just oooozed quality. I'd imagine my scooby looked pretty pathetic next to it.Sure, they cost a bundle but if I had the money I'd have one in a flash
08 May 2003, 09:18 AM
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So many scoobys are quicker than a c2 porsche. Does it make them better than a porsche?
I could get a banger, spend some cash on Mods and it would be quicker than a scoob at half the price... would you be seen dead in it? Would it make it a better car, and the scoob a rip-off?
Read any of the motoring press and you will see the M3's (and M5) strength is that it is a luxury car with fantastic performance... but not necessarily fastest car in the world!
You need to realise buying a car is not just how quick it can go... its only one of the many factors.
People don't buy M3s just becasue they are quick. They buy it because it combines luxury, speed, handling, style, comfort and practicality.
Yes it is twice the price of the scoob, but on all the aforementioned criteria, the scoob is only just equal on one or two, and on a different world on all the others. Remember, it has a much better spec for that price (apart from the build quality) leather, xenons, elec memory seats, fly by wire throttle, x-drilled brakes, 18" bespoke wheels, cruise control, leather steering wheel, state of the art DSC, 6 speed gearbox, steering wheel mounted controls...
M3s also have much better residuals, making them a lot cheaper then you think.
Give people some credit... most people lashing out £40-£50k on a car tend to be fairly switched on in teh first place!
Its as someone had said in a similar thread... its like buying a nice wine... its not just all about getting pizzed, otherwise all of us would drink thunderbird.
At the end of the day, everyone has different priorities when it comes to buying a car. I suggest you drive an E46 M3... if you think the Scoob is better then fine, you have made the correct decision! Its just that not all people think like you!
I could get a banger, spend some cash on Mods and it would be quicker than a scoob at half the price... would you be seen dead in it? Would it make it a better car, and the scoob a rip-off?
Read any of the motoring press and you will see the M3's (and M5) strength is that it is a luxury car with fantastic performance... but not necessarily fastest car in the world!
You need to realise buying a car is not just how quick it can go... its only one of the many factors.
People don't buy M3s just becasue they are quick. They buy it because it combines luxury, speed, handling, style, comfort and practicality.
Yes it is twice the price of the scoob, but on all the aforementioned criteria, the scoob is only just equal on one or two, and on a different world on all the others. Remember, it has a much better spec for that price (apart from the build quality) leather, xenons, elec memory seats, fly by wire throttle, x-drilled brakes, 18" bespoke wheels, cruise control, leather steering wheel, state of the art DSC, 6 speed gearbox, steering wheel mounted controls...
M3s also have much better residuals, making them a lot cheaper then you think.
Give people some credit... most people lashing out £40-£50k on a car tend to be fairly switched on in teh first place!
Its as someone had said in a similar thread... its like buying a nice wine... its not just all about getting pizzed, otherwise all of us would drink thunderbird.
At the end of the day, everyone has different priorities when it comes to buying a car. I suggest you drive an E46 M3... if you think the Scoob is better then fine, you have made the correct decision! Its just that not all people think like you!
08 May 2003, 09:21 AM
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exactly davyboy! They (and all the bmws) are just really well built, have quality parts and are a dream to drive. And Jap cars, well, are not ever considered by bmw to be competition. The only comparison to the subaru / evo comes from the X famile of cars (X5, etc), where they used information etc from these other companies to develop a new AWD system. (Not that I would know of course )
Neal
PS: tiggers, get your mate to also try an M5 - (after driving the M3) then jump into a subaru or evo...
)Neal
PS: tiggers, get your mate to also try an M5 - (after driving the M3) then jump into a subaru or evo...
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08 May 2003, 09:29 AM
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At the end of the day it comes down to what peeps want to pay and drive , i used to drive a Turbo 2000 awd then sold it and bought a nissan 200sx wasnt the same so went and bought a 300zx TT fairlady with 420BHP , and blew a few cars away but at the end of the day i should of never sold my scooby its been on my mind ever since i did it 15 months ago , hence today im flying upto scotland to pick my new sccoby up ( well MY01 ) for a 6 hour drive home because i shouyld of never sold mine to start with ,
its what you like not what others like and we like scoobys , i can see him buying a M3 coz he thinks of them like we think of scoobs , for what ive wasted on the nissan's i could of prolly bought an m3 lol , gl to ye boss
its what you like not what others like and we like scoobys , i can see him buying a M3 coz he thinks of them like we think of scoobs , for what ive wasted on the nissan's i could of prolly bought an m3 lol , gl to ye boss
08 May 2003, 09:51 AM
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I drive a Scooby and if I could afford a M3 I'd have one.
I saw one at the gym last night, soft top with the 19's. It put every car in the car park to shame.
Awesome kit!
Cheers
Dan
I saw one at the gym last night, soft top with the 19's. It put every car in the car park to shame.
Awesome kit!
Cheers
Dan
08 May 2003, 09:57 AM
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The dichotomy of this BBS never ceases to amaze me
We all love performance cars. But as davyboy and dannyboy have so rightly put --> its the way you go fast
If you want a drag racer - just dump a V8 in a mini. It'll have trouble going round corners but 'it will whip your Porsche'... yadi yadi yadi.... and I know what I'd prefer to be in.
As for the M3 - I recenty had a look at one and can only agree with dannyboys comments. Awesome. Unfortunately - I'm a sucker for the Porsche brand - you know that company that's in trouble 
Gastro
We all love performance cars. But as davyboy and dannyboy have so rightly put --> its the way you go fast
If you want a drag racer - just dump a V8 in a mini. It'll have trouble going round corners but 'it will whip your Porsche'... yadi yadi yadi.... and I know what I'd prefer to be in.
As for the M3 - I recenty had a look at one and can only agree with dannyboys comments. Awesome. Unfortunately - I'm a sucker for the Porsche brand
- you know that company that's in trouble Gastro
08 May 2003, 10:36 AM
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Have to agree with most of the opinions here.
Both the cars compromise in different ways and it depends entirely on what you want. Choice, it's a marvellous thing.
Unfortunately both marques attract the 'label hounds' who want the car for the image it projects to other people rather than the enjoyment it 'inflicts' on themselves. Sadly it sounds like the geezer in the original posting os definitely one of these characters.
Both the cars compromise in different ways and it depends entirely on what you want. Choice, it's a marvellous thing.
Unfortunately both marques attract the 'label hounds' who want the car for the image it projects to other people rather than the enjoyment it 'inflicts' on themselves. Sadly it sounds like the geezer in the original posting os definitely one of these characters.
08 May 2003, 11:13 AM
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Hi,
I have had 3 scoobies; Classic, P1 and STi 7 and more recently 3 E46 M3s. Currently got a M3 Cab.
Other than the performance, there is little reason to compare these 2 cars. I believe they are aimed at very different markets and to BMW at least, style is just as important as speed.
I still love the Scooby, a m8 at work bought my Sti 7 - I still see it everyday but having them parked side by side really underlines the fact that they are a breed apart.
Slam the door on a Scoob and then slam the door on an M3 - the difference in the noise is what helps to justify the difference in price.
The service interval on an enthusiastically driven M3 is about 12k - 15k miles. Much more than you could expect for a 350 bhp Scooby.
I always found that my Scoobs got attention from those I did not want attention from (baseball cap brigade etc) whereas most people don't even recognise an M3. (Until you get to a junction that is, when no-one will ever let you out )
They are both great cars. We should all learn to enjoy what we have and cos someone likes something different does not make them wrong.
Rod
I have had 3 scoobies; Classic, P1 and STi 7 and more recently 3 E46 M3s. Currently got a M3 Cab.
Other than the performance, there is little reason to compare these 2 cars. I believe they are aimed at very different markets and to BMW at least, style is just as important as speed.
I still love the Scooby, a m8 at work bought my Sti 7 - I still see it everyday but having them parked side by side really underlines the fact that they are a breed apart.
Slam the door on a Scoob and then slam the door on an M3 - the difference in the noise is what helps to justify the difference in price.
The service interval on an enthusiastically driven M3 is about 12k - 15k miles. Much more than you could expect for a 350 bhp Scooby.
I always found that my Scoobs got attention from those I did not want attention from (baseball cap brigade etc) whereas most people don't even recognise an M3. (Until you get to a junction that is, when no-one will ever let you out
)They are both great cars. We should all learn to enjoy what we have and cos someone likes something different does not make them wrong.
Rod
08 May 2003, 12:11 PM
#14
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Tiggers, it all comes down to weight mate. No matter how much power you have, you are not going to get over a tonne & a half of precision built pimp-wagon to go round a twisty circuit as quickly as around 1300 kilos of rally-bred all-wheel drive rice rocket. Let alone a bacofoil box with a rocket motor in it. But I bet you'll have a damned sight more fun sliding it out of the exits
BTW, I'd go for an S Type R personally, or an M coupe M3's are a bit too 'gangsta' for my taste
BTW, I'd go for an S Type R personally, or an M coupe
M3's are a bit too 'gangsta' for my taste
08 May 2003, 12:39 PM
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tiggers,
i have to ask this "what would YOU consider to be comparable to an M3"???
you do have to admit it is overpriced for what it is compared to the competition
08 May 2003, 01:40 PM
#17
i have to ask this "what would YOU consider to be comparable to an M3"???
New S4 (maybe)
Thats the market BMW are aiming at, they are not interested in the EVO/STi owners of this world because the M3 is in a completley different class to the EVO/STi. As a new car the M3 represents good value for money, if you can afford the repayments you could probably drive one for a year and lose less money than driving a EVO/STi for the same time.
No brainer IMHO.
P
08 May 2003, 01:49 PM
#18
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Hmm, depends where you live but round here (Burnley), the M3 has more of a bad boy/drug dealer reputation than any Scoob/Evo.
Great cars, especially the new shape M3's, but I dont like the image they portray
Great cars, especially the new shape M3's, but I dont like the image they portray
08 May 2003, 01:56 PM
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I had an M3 which i sold for a 996. I've found the 996 a much better car to live with day to day.
I found the interior on the m3 a bit disappointing (same plastic dash as a 316i) and the ride quality terrible for day to day use (but thats just personal preference I suppose).
It was bloody quick and a great drive if you were in the mood, but if you weren't it was just a pain.
Don't believe the hype about residuals either, cars that were 44k a year ago brand new you'll be lucky to get rid of for 33/34k now, thats still 10k loss in one year...
I found the interior on the m3 a bit disappointing (same plastic dash as a 316i) and the ride quality terrible for day to day use (but thats just personal preference I suppose).
It was bloody quick and a great drive if you were in the mood, but if you weren't it was just a pain.
Don't believe the hype about residuals either, cars that were 44k a year ago brand new you'll be lucky to get rid of for 33/34k now, thats still 10k loss in one year...
08 May 2003, 02:04 PM
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Another Evo/Scooby vs M3 thread blah blah blah. Totally different cars, totally different market, why bother. Each to his own hey?
If you bought a M3 convertable you would'nt lose thousands, such a waiting list on these that come summer time people want to pose in one that fairly newish ones are worth more than what they originally sold for.
[Edited by JPR - 5/8/2003 2:06:14 PM]
[Edited by JPR - 5/8/2003 2:39:49 PM]
If you bought a M3 convertable you would'nt lose thousands, such a waiting list on these that come summer time people want to pose in one that fairly newish ones are worth more than what they originally sold for.
[Edited by JPR - 5/8/2003 2:06:14 PM]
[Edited by JPR - 5/8/2003 2:39:49 PM]
08 May 2003, 09:10 PM
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Could some of you kids stop referring to Subarus and Mitsubishis as "jap" and "rice" mobiles?
You people claim to be car enthusiasts, but you easily make out to appear as ignorant no-nothing racists.
Damn it, the original M3 was built to compete in sedan class motorsports back in the 80's. (Much like what Ford did with the Sierra Cosworth) Those original E30 M cars were far from the padded out luxury "gangster" mobiles you see today. BMW wised up and made the newer M3's more suitable for real world driving.
So what if an M3 has the same cockpit as a 316i? Modern cars are built far better than the supercars from the 80's and early 90's. Take alook at the older 911's, and compare them to mid 90's 3 series.
It's as quick as many sub 100k supercars but a hell of alot more drivable on the streets, and you people moan about it being overpriced because of a few hardcore rally-bred saloons exist.
You people claim to be car enthusiasts, but you easily make out to appear as ignorant no-nothing racists.
Damn it, the original M3 was built to compete in sedan class motorsports back in the 80's. (Much like what Ford did with the Sierra Cosworth) Those original E30 M cars were far from the padded out luxury "gangster" mobiles you see today. BMW wised up and made the newer M3's more suitable for real world driving.
So what if an M3 has the same cockpit as a 316i? Modern cars are built far better than the supercars from the 80's and early 90's. Take alook at the older 911's, and compare them to mid 90's 3 series.
It's as quick as many sub 100k supercars but a hell of alot more drivable on the streets, and you people moan about it being overpriced because of a few hardcore rally-bred saloons exist.
08 May 2003, 09:23 PM
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Could some of you kids stop referring to Subarus and Mitsubishis as "jap" and "rice" mobiles?
Which car's are you defending here ?, the JAP and RICE mobile's or the m3 ?.
08 May 2003, 09:30 PM
#27
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Slam the door on a Scoob and then slam the door on an M3 - the difference in the noise is what helps to justify the difference in price.
I get such a buzz out of hearing a car door shut... what are you on....
Dan
08 May 2003, 09:33 PM
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beemer boy..
If the budget was £45K+ i would choose a nissan skyline R34 V-SPEC without a shadow of doubt...!!!
Mainly for looks, rarity, speed and the fact they dont make a 316i version
Dan
If the budget was £45K+ i would choose a nissan skyline R34 V-SPEC without a shadow of doubt...!!!
Mainly for looks, rarity, speed and the fact they dont make a 316i version
Dan
08 May 2003, 10:25 PM
#29
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No one has mentioned the 'lurking cancer' of owning any BMW... you are hated and you are a road-pariah... to own an M3 is to be never let out of any turning, to be tail-gated by Vectra V6s', to be followed bu the filf on M'ways... they bring with them a road life of sneering contempt... this leads to the 'thick-skinned idiot' driving style adopted by ALL long-term BMW drivers...
Lovely car... lousy image.
Lovely car... lousy image.
08 May 2003, 10:52 PM
#30
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i like M3s
a cab 1 passed me in the last few days of my scoob ownership...
now thats a nice sounding car!
and no compromise sound about it
i loved my scoob... v quick n that
but i think N/A cars that are as quick stats wise will be a better car for enjoying ur interaction with the car...
so it depends on how u look at it...
time wise, a scoob is up there
feel wise i would say a M3 wins...
but then, i havent owned a M3... yet
a cab 1 passed me in the last few days of my scoob ownership...
now thats a nice sounding car!
and no compromise sound about it
i loved my scoob... v quick n that
but i think N/A cars that are as quick stats wise will be a better car for enjoying ur interaction with the car...
so it depends on how u look at it...
time wise, a scoob is up there
feel wise i would say a M3 wins...
but then, i havent owned a M3... yet