johno01

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyLdoQGBchQ

Dreep

Keep the poetry rolling, you are certainly not fooling me with your ignorance. If you spent as much time researching the topic as you do trying to dress up your replies in glitter laden grammar you might have an idea as to why this conflict has unfolded.

- 7 year old analysis prior to this conflict by a professor in political science, are you going to say he's wrong too?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

There's plenty to disagree with in Maersheimer's analysis. The more obvious points are firstly that he still considers Russia legitimately a "great power" - a point which is highly debatable, when you consider that Russia/Soviet Union only rose to "greatness" during the Cold War era on the back of the theft, pillage and mass-murder inflicted by its totalitarian regime on countless of its neighbouring countries, not to mention the huge amount of aid provided to it during WWII by the West. Add to that the fact that Soviet communism was demonstrably a failed experiment (which ironically even Maersheimer himself repeatedly reminds of us, with his numerous references to the unipolar, post-Soviet era), and I struggle to see how the label "great" can validly be applied. Following straight from that, you have his "this is just what great powers do" hypothesis, with regards to how great powers supposedly behave when neighbouring countries take a neutral or unaligned stance. There are at least two big problems with this, the first of which is that he claims this is backed up by multiple similar actions by the USA (for which he conveniently fails to provide concrete examples - or perhaps you can tell us when the US last sent tanks into Mexico?), and the second quite simply that we only have his word for it that this is an absolute, inescapable given, and should remain that way for eternity. Fine, if you want to accept that the world is destined to remain divided up into totalitarian/authoritarian blocks for the remainder of history, but why should anyone do that?

I could go on, but you'd probably only complain that I was using too many long words or too much "grammar", or some nonsense like that.

Lozgti2

Either way, it’s appalling. For Ukrainians ad Russian troops who don’t want it.

Such a sad state of affairs all round. And that really is an understatement.

Dreep

Finally contributing toward constructive conversation now. Not so hard is it?

First, he debates that the US / Western nations see Russia as a 'great power'. Which is not debatable at all given the fact NATO continues it's desire to expand. It's common knowledge that it was formed after WW2 under the idea that the USSR would invade Europe (go and look on NATO's website if you want to even debate that). If Russia wasn't seen as a great power by the US / NATO, then NATO wouldn't really have any real reason to exist as it wouldn't have anything to defend against. Russia even tried to join NATO in the 1950's and was denied due to being unaligned with its 'defensive aims'.

Quite convenient though isn't it, especially by todays standards to fund an enemy to fight your enemy? A nice display of a strategic decision over a moral one there. None the less a good point made, but, proves my aformentioned point regarding enemy - the good old Iron Curtain speech in 46'....
The West did a pretty good job of funding 'freedom fighters' (Mujahadeen) to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan and then have it backfire on them massively as they essentially created the civil war in Afghanistan. Roll on 2001, 20 year war, and the Taliban are in control again.

Have you been living under a rock? 'Unaligned stance' ie. not having Western interests. Surely I dont need to list the amount of wars the USA has been involved in since WW2 that were down to political differences or resourceful gain? Whether you or I believe it's right or wrong politically, it just proves the point the great powers do behave this way to turn the tide to influence other nations to a different way of political thinking or to benefit the West by other means. As I pointed out before, many modern day conflicts between nations or civil wars are deeply routed in history. People don't forget and it's no different to what is happening in Ukraine right now.

IdonthaveaScooby

Jeez Question time , and everyones like they're reading from a script - not a single dissenting voice

and then some back up propaganda , from a scholar ( not likely to ever get hands on )

IdonthaveaScooby

bet your life they'll be some missile , supposedly from Russia..... fired into nato country

Lozgti2

Reckon you are right

Lozgti2

Think we will be going a bit nuclear. And none of us will be here to talk anymore nonsense

Lozgti2

Which is good really because still not sorted my pension out

gazney101

iTrader: (5)

The UK has very sophisticated air defence systems that can deal with intercontinental ballistic missiles.
​​​​​​

An0n0m0us

Which is nothing compared to what the Americans have in terms of size/numbers/power.

An0n0m0us

​​​​​​Dreep you must put the old headphones on at night and fall asleep listening to Lavrov speeches on repeat. Whatever you think has happened since 2008 to cause this the fact is Putin is a paranoid lunatic that harks back to the days of the USSR and wants all that land returned to be under the control of Russia. It's nothing to do with anything else it's all about him being an old school rusky who wants it back how it used to be. Gorbachev got rid of the USSR and ended the cold war and brought Russia out of the dark ages and allowed Russians to have all the Western luxuries they are now used to and Putin is taking them straight back there and losing all those Western luxuries which has been his aim ever since he took power. He is a dictator who puts the likes of Kim Jong-un in the shade. And you try to justify what he is doing? Stop watching Russian propoganda.

There is no rationale behind his actions whatsoever, just a mental condition called delusion. What the West did wrong was to not act in 2014 when he took Crimea and just gave him the green light to finish off the job when he felt like it. Well now he feels like it.

IdonthaveaScooby

If those western “luxuries” lost include Macdonalds then this can only be a good thing

IdonthaveaScooby

IdonthaveaScooby

So meanwhile apparently its entirely reasonable for Israel to expand illegally and brutally into Palestine with deadly conseqences , because its written in the stars , with US/UK backing

IdonthaveaScooby

oh well thats fine then

all the excuse Nato needs to bomb the **** out of a foreign land


wall to wall Ukraine footage / personal interviews with the displaced now

its like we've suddenly a new neighbour

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

So does this mean the Russians are invading/expanding into Ukraine?

Dreep

HAHAHA, You should have wrote this instead of wasting your time writing the above - I dont like what history says and im choosing not believing it unless it aligns with my interests.

Again, totally spun out of context by the West. I'll await your proof though.

hedgecutter

iTrader: (5)

"Again, totally spun out of context by the West. I'll await your proof though."
Quote
My young daughter being in Salisbury the day Putin sanctioned using a banned nerve agent in our country is enough for me. And as I said earlier, the extensive experience of my wife working in Russia and being fluent in their language, from Glasnost to Putin's rule, ( I also worked there for a short period) meant none of this has come as a surprise. Back in his early days your business would suffer violence and intimidation if you didn't pay the bribes demanded by the criminal cartel, which in turn was able to operate openly in Moscow.
His message, whether fighting in nieghbouring states, or poisoning opposition, is to intimidate the next state, or perceived traitor, at any cost. Add to that the state sponsored doping of athletes and the truly staggering wealth of the leaders , and he's leagues ahead of any of our admittedly **** political leaders.
His fears of Nato expansion etc may not have been given the sympathy it perhaps deserved, but his response is completely disproportionate and barbaric.

Lozgti2

Yep

Dreep

Whilst I don't disagree with some of the points you are making as being out of order, its not really answering the question I asked. You honestly believe that in the West there are no backdoor deals changing hands to line the pockets of politicians, their friends and businesses? The West is brilliant at intimidating nations across the world and invading them in a bid to create 'order' and 'peace' (by means of military force ) in regions they deem not suitable to align with their best interests. The West were also the only ones in history to actually use nuclear weapons instead of just talking about it, although bizarrely, people to this day will argue that it was justifiable. Yes, Russia has carried out assassinations on international soil but can you tell me that the West doesn't do exactly the same thing regardless if its by a banned nerve agent or a drone strike whilst taking out collateral civilian life with it??

All these people leaving the UK to go and fight against the Russian's in Ukraine being called heroes is utter instanity when we have the audacity to call these same people that travel to places like Afghanistan and Iraq to defend their homeland from foreign invaders - terrorists. Its just another case of double standards from the West.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

So you've now gone from Rooting for Putin to Mobilizing for the Mullahs, impressive. Ever heard the phrase "sometimes it's better to put the spade down and stop digging"?

Dreep

Oh so you gave up replying to my previous response, says alot ? No one is telling you to pick a side here but its clear you already are but I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who is clearly now categorising me with a 'them and us' attitude by drawing vague conclusions. I have been merely analysing this conflict from both points of view not strictly a Western one which we see to no end in newspapers, TV, radio and any other media sources.
With your logic not only are you a Russophobe but an Islamophobe too? What a great display of racial / predjuice discrimination from you actually coming out the woodwork now (although, having said that this isn't actually the first time you've displayed this). My involvement in this conversation ends here, scary to see how you really think about world problems.

hedgecutter

iTrader: (5)

Im commenting on the current crisis/war. War is dirty. Politicians are dirty. But this is now and it's being fought on a whole lower level. I dont disagree with you about the West's ( USA) hypocrisy but that's another argument, although I believe we are alot closer to all out war currently.

An0n0m0us

Never did I think i'd see the day we'd have our very own Russia sympathiser on this site. So you disbelieve Putin wants to go back to the days of the USSR? He doesn't want control back of all former USSR states? You don't have to look far back to see his claims Ukraine has never been independent and always part of Russia. He has done his best to control all the former states of the USSR except he can't touch Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania as he was too late in stopping their membership of NATO.

And LOL totally spun out of context by the West said like a true Lavrov follower - the king of bullsh!t.

WRXrowdy

iTrader: (2)

At least you/we can. As far as I am aware there doesn’t seem to be any tv or radio stations shut down or website restrictions in the west.
Russia however is a different story with many media outlets shut down to Russian civilians.
Begs the question, doesn’t it.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

Russian stock market has been closed for two weeks now so with the economy crashing in Russia people will be blaming Putin but can’t say anything as it carries 15 years hard labour.

IdonthaveaScooby

EddScott

Watched some of this. Whilst I'm not blind to the West being partly due to the crisis in Ukraine, it takes two to tango. Neither "side" has covered themselves with glory in global politics and warfare.

Ukraine has long strived to be western facing. They see how life has improved for EU countries, mostly notable Poland and they want that for themselves. They don't to be dragged back into the "sphere" of Russian influence.

There are clear issues how the West has reacted to the invasion of Ukraine and just stood at the sidelines and shouted "Oh no, stop" as Russia has carried out it's conflicts in Syria.

However, irrespective of who should shoulder the most blame, Ukraine should not be thrown under the bus just to avoid tension with Russia. Unlike other wars where we've got involved to help one side or the other and once the dust settles neither faction wants us there. The Ukrainians do. Where we've tried to install our idealolgy into middle eastern countries and it's gone horribly wrong, the Ukrainians view our idealolgy.

So whilst I appreciate it's very easy to the point the finger at the West, we are where we are. Personally, I don't want Ukraine to fall. The country means a lot to me and I just hope something can be agreed before the country just disolves into what would effectively be a DMZ between East and West.