dpb

We're headed for jingoistic english nats state i hope all those interviewed market traders bemoaing the lack of democracy get there just deserts for voting in a fourth generation turkish immigrant tory, id love to hear from them once again in 5 years time as to how much their lot has improved

trails

iTrader: (41)

You have to be realistic, of course it's going to be London centric; it's where everything happens. I agree a more central location for Parliment is a sensible move though..

Nobody came out of this smelling of roses...electoral reform is needed to kerb the slide towards US style politics. If it's not too late.

Come on, there were shouty people on both sides doing what shouty people do...those types will never understand the value of debate. Which is sad.

Entirely agree regarding Brexit, I still don't believe it's the right way to go but it's got to happen now...I will watch with interest how leaving the EU affects the poorer areas of the country. I sincerely hope it does work out for them.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Maybe, maybe not. It's going to depend on which bits of the Tory party De Pfeffel uses to populate his cabinet.

I do think this could be the end of the UK though...SNP have much influence and the DUP are no longer in control...

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

As I was saying, exactly the language I’m talking about. This has done no favours and just cemented opinions, time for you to look at what you say and type and the language you use. As proven now, you will never change opinions by using wide brushed insults purely based on a vote you only make it worse for yourself.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I rest my case.

I will now retire from this thread for the foreseeable

All the best in the new order

dpb

Says it all really

the "new order" are in fact bunch of stodgy stale haggard old tories



sad

trails

iTrader: (41)

You don't have to though...you could have taken the moral high ground, but you chose not to.

trails

iTrader: (41)

This is really of no value and part of the underlying reason we are where we are. Come on man, sort it out; it's embarrassing.

trails

iTrader: (41)

But they aren't...the Tories have won their biggest majority since the car crash of the Michael Foot leadership. The whole country voted for this result.

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

Oh very funny. What about Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Bristol, Birmingham, Plymouth, Exeter, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield etc, all Labour and all major centres of population? This country is as divided as ever.

Mr Fuji

You are, of course, correct, but it still felt good to say it

On a more serious note, xenophobia and racism are real issues in the UK, and whether we are in the EU or not, we are still going to need a shed load of immigrants here, and I don't see this administration being able to address that.

Mr Fuji

Do we have the actual voter share yet as opposed to seats won? It really is time to get rid of this system!

trails

iTrader: (41)

Empathy here

Agree...although we are leaving the EU the reasons still feel rather murky. I think those that voted to leave due to xenophobia or worse are going to be sorely disappointed. As this becomes clear perhaps we will see a backlash?

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

Cons 43.6%. So the gov gets a massive majority on less than half the vote. System needs to change.

Mr Fuji

And indeed this is the problem, so whilst folk like Andy97 can trumpet this is a massive endorsement of Leave, that isn't necessarily so. I don't imagine the picture has changed much at all in the last 3 years, so we will remain a divided country.

I look forward to hearing the excuses in 5 years time as to why they haven't delivered on their promises. Probably blame it on Clement Atlee........

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Labour/Blair in 1997 got 43.5% in his so called ‘landslide victory’. Yet that was OK?

System needed to change in 1997 as much as it does today.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Genuine question; are you looking for an argument?

I only ask as nobody has mentioned Blair's victory, so this is a weird slightly antagonistic post...

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

No it wasn't ok. No government has a real mandate on less than 50%. The voting system has been inadequate for decades.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I’m making a point...the % victory is almost the same. The only thing that has changed is who won.

Blair’s victory was widely accepted, in sort passively continuing the endorsement of FPTP.

I’m against FPTP, but you have accept this result equally as much as those in the past.

Mr Fuji

Oh I agree, I've been an advocate of proportional representation for many, many years.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Nobody is saying they aren't accepting the result though. Odd.

BMWhere?

The turkeys have voted for Christmas!

Very disappointing result, but no big surprise really. Corbyn was trying to fight an election on socialism when the whole country was only interested in Brexit! He also completely failed in his handling of the anti-Corbyn propaganda!

But while all the Brexiteers are blowing their trumpets in victory, this election really shows how the FPTP system always skews the election results. You can claim this is an approval vote for Brexit, but the popular vote was an overwhelming majority for parties supporting remain or a second referendum. Under a PR system, the Conservatives may have won, but they would be unable to build a majority Brexit coalition. Labour and Lib Dem together would give a majority remain coalition, then you can add SNP and Green and you would have a very strong remain coalition.

Also that election map may be focussing on the pretty blue colour, but the top of that map is very yellow! The SNP gained 13 seats and won 45% of the popular vote. In NI the DUP vote was down 5.4% and lost two seats while SF dropped by 6.7% although retained all their seats. The alliance party of NI gained 8.8% and won a seat in a clear sign that the NI are putting their differences behind them and the two sides are uniting. I wonder how many of the Brexiteers will be cheering when Scotland gets independence and NI unites with the Irish Republic?

On a brigter note, I correctly guessed the result and the pound has shot up to €1.2 which has netted me a tidy €5K in the last two days! I'll admit I wasn't expecting quite such a huge jump, I was really quite pleased when I saw the jump when the exit poll results were announced! While most people were watching the election results, I was closely watching the exchange rate and waiting for the right moment to trade! I really don't support Brexit or the current Tory party, but I'm more than happy to make lots of money out of it

Dr Hu

Well there's your second referendum boys..... I don't think the remainers really understood the feeling on the street - I could count 10 leavers to 1 remainer - and despite all the shouty noise from the remainers they forgot the silent majority.
And as for JC - I still think it would have been a much closer election if they had removed the pretty much unelectable JC from leader.
He was too toxic on too many issues.... even the majority of the Labour Party are beginning to realise that now.
I also agree that FPTP is a nightmare for representation - in my seat Cons won with 62% of vote - labour less than 20% - so any vote not for Cons was a frustrated vote.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Odd? How is it ‘odd’?

Its a simple comparison and I asked Weevil a question...Was Blair’s victory Ok?

He said no (above), so its cool.

Anyway, if someone hurls an insult towards a group because of what they voted, it to me, implies they reject the results. ‘Turkeys voted for Chirstmas’ that implies stupid people voted Tory which implies that because I didn’t vote Tory I don’t accept this result, because the election system is wrong. Also all those Anti-Brexit protesters, what of them?

Trails I’m sure you’ve been on this forum long enough to remember pslewis’s stance on the 1997 results, the politics threads revolving round this are long ingrained in SN’s history. Maybe he was the forum’s only real true Blairite, anyway it had to be pointed out just incase he pops back in.

Additionally I lived in Labour strongholds, and these are now Tory. We had a lot of Blairites round here, a lot of people have since changed their tune or gone quiet over their past support. So the observation of his victory vs. the current results makes it poignant that what would have happened post 1997 if a Proportionate Representation system or AV+ were adopted. Labour back then ignored the Jenkins commission and promises of electoral reform because their victory suited them, and today we are facing the consequences of that.

Dr Hu

I also think this is the Tories last Roll of the Dice - a lot of people have voted for them who wouldn't normally - if they don't deliver in the next 5 years, and properly end austerity they are doomed in the next GE.

Mr Fuji

The majority of people in the UK voted for parties that were anti Brexit, it's only FPTP that has delivered the result, so it's entirely possible that the majority is now in favour of Remain. I'm not saying it is, and Brexit obviously killed Labour, but it's patently clear that Johnson does not have a popular mandate for Leave. Your statement about 10 to 1 just shows you live in a leave area, the exact opposite is my experience, I hardly know anyone who voted leave.

But, it is what it is, let's see what they do now!

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

Well the feeling on the street here in Bristol hasn't changed since the referendum - as a city we voted 62% remain, and have just returned all 4 of our MPs, all remainers, all Labour. Similar story in many other cities. I'm afraid we are just as divided on this as ever. My constituency yesterday voted 87.1% for remain parties, 12.9% for leave parties, very much in line with the ref result. If this election really was a second ref (which of course it isn't), leave just lost with less than 50% of the national vote.

BMWhere?

If you lose a battle in a war, you don't surrender the entire war, you keep on fighting for the next battle! The same is true of politics, you may lose an election or referendum, but that doesn't mean you have to give in and change your political viewpoint, you dust off and fight the next campaign - that's democracy! The reality is, until Brexit happens, remainers will fight to stop it and if they lose and Brexit happens, then they'll start fighting to rejoin again! I accept any democratic result, but don't expect me to fall on my sword just because I lost a battle!

As for AV, that is just a rehash of FPTP which still biases the result to return a parliamentary majority without an overall majority and will do nothing to fix the two party system. The AV referendum was a fudge by the two main parties to pretend they were serious about electoral reform without risking giving up the system which unfairly favours them, that's why is was rightly rejected! Only a PR system means that everyone's vote counts equally, regardless of where you live and end the quasi-dictatorship of an overall majority! For my entire lifetime, FPTP has enabled leaders to steamroller unpopular policies without a genuine mandate from the public!

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Tidgy

harsh, but funny.

i See anna soubry is in the same line