So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
04 June 2018, 06:27 AM
#2731
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So how many immigrants are on minimum wage and have kids then? What about the ones who are fit and young earning good money? What about the ones who are running businesses and employ people? What about the ones who are working for the NHS? In my area, there are lots of skilled EU citizens working at GKN, Airbus, Rolls Royce, and the NHS, earning very good money, filling vacancies that exist due to a skill shortage.
You are going off on a tangent as most do when this topic is raised.
I'm not talking about skilled, high earning immigrants. If we need them then we should allow them to come and welcome them.
The issue was that somebody (perhaps you?) said that our failing infrastructure was nothing to do with immigration and all to do with a lack of investment.
My point is that it has a lot to do with immigration. Unskilled, low paid immigrants are a drain on resources. Millions will never earn enough to be ever make a net contribution.
There should NOT be free movement for these people.
That's is all I'm saying.
04 June 2018, 10:51 AM
#2733
You are going off on a tangent as most do when this topic is raised.
I'm not talking about skilled, high earning immigrants. If we need them then we should allow them to come and welcome them.
The issue was that somebody (perhaps you?) said that our failing infrastructure was nothing to do with immigration and all to do with a lack of investment.
My point is that it has a lot to do with immigration. Unskilled, low paid immigrants are a drain on resources. Millions will never earn enough to be ever make a net contribution.
There should NOT be free movement for these people.
That's is all I'm saying.
I'm not talking about skilled, high earning immigrants. If we need them then we should allow them to come and welcome them.
The issue was that somebody (perhaps you?) said that our failing infrastructure was nothing to do with immigration and all to do with a lack of investment.
My point is that it has a lot to do with immigration. Unskilled, low paid immigrants are a drain on resources. Millions will never earn enough to be ever make a net contribution.
There should NOT be free movement for these people.
That's is all I'm saying.
Why is it going off on a tangent? Immigration has to be taken as a whole, not cherry picked, so the immigrants who are earning plenty obviously offset the ones who are not, as immigrants are nett contributors to the economy.
Same as the 'indigenous' population, there's plenty of scroungers here, but no one seems to mind them, simply because they were born here.
04 June 2018, 12:13 PM
#2734
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Why is it going off on a tangent? Immigration has to be taken as a whole, not cherry picked, so the immigrants who are earning plenty obviously offset the ones who are not, as immigrants are nett contributors to the economy.
Same as the 'indigenous' population, there's plenty of scroungers here, but no one seems to mind them, simply because they were born here.
Same as the 'indigenous' population, there's plenty of scroungers here, but no one seems to mind them, simply because they were born here.
Why can't we cherry pick?
Don't go off on another tangent by bringing up the indigenous population, they are already here and so have no direct bearing on the immigration debate.
Btw, I'm NOT saying that there are millions of immigrants who are scroungers, but there are millions who don't earn enough to be net contributers.
And I'm yet to see this robust evidence that immigration over the last 10 years has resulted in a net contribution.
Last edited by Dingdongler; 04 June 2018 at 12:19 PM.
04 June 2018, 12:56 PM
#2735
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Why can't we cherry pick?
Don't go off on another tangent by bringing up the indigenous population, they are already here and so have no direct bearing on the immigration debate.
Btw, I'm NOT saying that there are millions of immigrants who are scroungers, but there are millions who don't earn enough to be net contributers.
And I'm yet to see this robust evidence that immigration over the last 10 years has resulted in a net contribution.
Don't go off on another tangent by bringing up the indigenous population, they are already here and so have no direct bearing on the immigration debate.
Btw, I'm NOT saying that there are millions of immigrants who are scroungers, but there are millions who don't earn enough to be net contributers.
And I'm yet to see this robust evidence that immigration over the last 10 years has resulted in a net contribution.
What are we going to do about all the unskilled jobs that need filling?
Who's going to...
Pick our crops?
Build our houses?
Keep our hospitality sector going?
Deliver social care?
The 'net contribution' (tax take, versus cost), is probably a finely balanced argument. The opportunity cost argument, must be hugely swayed in favour of migration though?
Without access to significant numbers of unskilled workers, large parts our economy would start to shut down.
Last edited by Martin2005; 04 June 2018 at 12:58 PM.
04 June 2018, 03:54 PM
#2736
I'm yet to see robust evidence to the contrary, and how this is supposedly impacting on the state of our infrastructure. Also, it would be interesting to compare this supposed deficit with the current tax gap of c.£120bn since we're talking about drains on resources.
04 June 2018, 04:53 PM
#2737
ok so taking the thought that the high earners are compensating for the low, lets use free school meals as a example, ]
as soon as you earn 13300 per year you have to pay £2.25 per day per child
i asked as dcc boasted in the local paper they spent 68pence on each diner how come they are £2.25 you are a school therefore a non profit making org
she coudnt answer, i added i will tell you why because we working people are paying for 3.4 non earners, based on this calculation how many high earning immigrants do we have to import to compensate for the thousands and thousands that have come here and can't even speak or learn our language let alone intergrate into our society
as soon as you earn 13300 per year you have to pay £2.25 per day per child
i asked as dcc boasted in the local paper they spent 68pence on each diner how come they are £2.25 you are a school therefore a non profit making org
she coudnt answer, i added i will tell you why because we working people are paying for 3.4 non earners, based on this calculation how many high earning immigrants do we have to import to compensate for the thousands and thousands that have come here and can't even speak or learn our language let alone intergrate into our society
04 June 2018, 05:05 PM
#2738
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ok so taking the thought that the high earners are compensating for the low, lets use free school meals as a example, ]
as soon as you earn 13300 per year you have to pay £2.25 per day per child
i asked as dcc boasted in the local paper they spent 68pence on each diner how come they are £2.25 you are a school therefore a non profit making org
she coudnt answer, i added i will tell you why because we working people are paying for 3.4 non earners, based on this calculation how many high earning immigrants do we have to import to compensate for the thousands and thousands that have come here and can't even speak or learn our language let alone intergrate into our society
as soon as you earn 13300 per year you have to pay £2.25 per day per child
i asked as dcc boasted in the local paper they spent 68pence on each diner how come they are £2.25 you are a school therefore a non profit making org
she coudnt answer, i added i will tell you why because we working people are paying for 3.4 non earners, based on this calculation how many high earning immigrants do we have to import to compensate for the thousands and thousands that have come here and can't even speak or learn our language let alone intergrate into our society
Given the age profile of immigrants, they generally don't have kids, and generally don't use hospitals. Next argument please?
http://bruegel.org/2016/06/what-is-t...uk-immigrants/
04 June 2018, 07:20 PM
#2739
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Whats bizarre is these immies are actually what makes our society across large numbers cities across decades , but of course thats just dismissed
wonder why
Maybe easy target for other frustrations
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8380921.html
wonder why
Maybe easy target for other frustrations
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8380921.html
04 June 2018, 07:35 PM
#2740
Scooby Regular
Hold on a minute. A number of people (?you included) have insisted that immigration provides a net financial benefit to the country.
So all I've asked for is the maths to back this up.
Does it exist? If it doesn't then people really stop reciting it like some kind of holy chant.
04 June 2018, 07:43 PM
#2741
Scooby Regular
What are we going to do about all the unskilled jobs that need filling?
Who's going to...
Pick our crops?
Build our houses?
Keep our hospitality sector going?
Deliver social care?
The 'net contribution' (tax take, versus cost), is probably a finely balanced argument. The opportunity cost argument, must be hugely swayed in favour of migration though?
Without access to significant numbers of unskilled workers, large parts our economy would start to shut down.
Who's going to...
Pick our crops?
Build our houses?
Keep our hospitality sector going?
Deliver social care?
The 'net contribution' (tax take, versus cost), is probably a finely balanced argument. The opportunity cost argument, must be hugely swayed in favour of migration though?
Without access to significant numbers of unskilled workers, large parts our economy would start to shut down.
We should increase the wages for these jobs so that the indigenous population can undertake them and afford to live.
Instead we import cheap labour and then supplement their existence via taxes.
Big corporations benefit and the working/lower middle classes suffer because they then can't get a school/GP place, hospital bed, housing.
The upper middle classes buy their way out of most of these issues but give up a large part of their income to do so and the rest in tax to supplement the existence of these unskilled migrants
Last edited by Dingdongler; 04 June 2018 at 07:48 PM.
04 June 2018, 07:49 PM
#2742
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We should increase the wages for these jobs so that the indigenous population can undertake them and afford to live.
Instead we import cheap labour and then supplement their existence via taxes.
Big corporations benefit and the working/lower middle classes suffer because they then can't get a school/GP place, hospital bed, housing.
The upper middle classes buy their way out of most of these issues but give up a large part of their income to do so and the rest in tax to supplement the existence of this unskilled migrants
Instead we import cheap labour and then supplement their existence via taxes.
Big corporations benefit and the working/lower middle classes suffer because they then can't get a school/GP place, hospital bed, housing.
The upper middle classes buy their way out of most of these issues but give up a large part of their income to do so and the rest in tax to supplement the existence of this unskilled migrants
For the 400th time, it's not migration (from the EU) that's placing strain on the NHS or schools, I'll say it again migrants are generally young, single and therefore childless.
Despite high levels of immigration, the ratio of working people to the retired continues to shrink, stopping or slowing down migration will inevitably accelerate this.
You appear to be in full denial of the basic facts of this issue. Or as you would say 'clumsy and lazy'.
Last edited by Martin2005; 04 June 2018 at 08:12 PM.
04 June 2018, 09:54 PM
#2743
Hold on a minute. A number of people (?you included) have insisted that immigration provides a net financial benefit to the country.
So all I've asked for is the maths to back this up.
Does it exist? If it doesn't then people really stop reciting it like some kind of holy chant.
So all I've asked for is the maths to back this up.
Does it exist? If it doesn't then people really stop reciting it like some kind of holy chant.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-arti...EU-immigration
https://iasservices.org.uk/how-does-...enefit-the-uk/
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6...on-uk-economy/
https://www.oecd.org/migration/OECD%...Numero%202.pdf
04 June 2018, 10:31 PM
#2744
We have full employment so i ask why am i paying for unemployed peoples kids to have school diners for free ? and i would like a straight answer not some leftie mp cop out, if there are no unemployed people in this country why are there job centres ?it's not migration (from the EU) that's placing strain on the NHS or schools,its other countries like somalia etc that are a problem
Last edited by madscoob; 04 June 2018 at 10:36 PM.
04 June 2018, 10:42 PM
#2746
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We have full employment so i ask why am i paying for unemployed peoples kids to have school diners for free ? and i would like a straight answer not some leftie mp cop out, if there are no unemployed people in this country why are there job centres ?it's not migration (from the EU) that's placing strain on the NHS or schools,its other countries like somalia etc that are a problem
This is a Brexit thread, so I'm not sure why you're suddenly talking about Somalia?
04 June 2018, 11:19 PM
#2747
NICE COP OUT even managed to turn it round to being about somalians, you know the ones that are gagging to get here under lorries that have walked all across europe just to get here for no benefits BEHAVE the average wage in somalia is about £750 a YEAR so even if they only got jobseekers they would consider themselves minted, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALL HAVE NEW TRAINERS AND MOBILE PHONES IF THEY GET NO BENEFITS. FULL employment who the hell calls 1.44million in jan 2018 full employment PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAY JOB TO DO STAND UP anyone who has found a job since jan will probably be in a seasonal job anyhow, a fair shout of locals here go back on the dole in november here as the holiday season comes to a end, and guess what as soon as they sign on they get the tax they payed back so how the hell do they contribute ? where the wife works there are about 20-30 romanians and lithuainians and they all go back home on november the 6th when the season closes, so all the crop pickers etc all go back home and get thier tax back SO ONCE AGAIN PLEASE ENLIGHTED ME AS TO HOW THEY CONTRIBUTE
Last edited by madscoob; 04 June 2018 at 11:44 PM.
04 June 2018, 11:50 PM
#2748
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NICE COP OUT even managed to turn it round to being about somalians, you know the ones that are gagging to get here under lorries that have walked all across europe just to get here for no benefits BEHAVE the average wage in somalia is about £750 a YEAR so even if they only got jobseekers they would consider themselves minted, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALL HAVE NEW TRAINERS AND MOBILE PHONES IF THEY GET NO BENEFITS. FULL employment who the hell calls 1.44million in jan 2018 full employment PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAY JOB TO DO STAND UP anyone who has found a job since jan will probably be in a seasonal job anyhow, a fair shout of locals here go back on the dole in november here as the holiday season comes to a end, and guess what as soon as they sign on they get the tax they payed back so how the hell do they contribute ? where the wife works there are about 20-30 romanians and lithuainians and they all go back home on november the 6th when the season closes
Let me say it again as you clearly didn't read it last time. Full Employment is a technical economic term, it's neither my term, or a 'cop out'.
Surely the Romanians you mention are the ideal migrants? They come here, work for a while, then go home.
The point you make about seasonal work might be true in some cases, but it's hardly the majority is it? It also begs the question, if migrants didn’t do these jobs, then who would?
Last edited by Martin2005; 04 June 2018 at 11:56 PM.
05 June 2018, 09:54 AM
#2750
Why are we back on Somalia again?
Let me say it again as you clearly didn't read it last time. Full Employment is a technical economic term, it's neither my term, or a 'cop out'.
Surely the Romanians you mention are the ideal migrants? They come here, work for a while, then go home.
The point you make about seasonal work might be true in some cases, but it's hardly the majority is it? It also begs the question, if migrants didn’t do these jobs, then who would?
Let me say it again as you clearly didn't read it last time. Full Employment is a technical economic term, it's neither my term, or a 'cop out'.
Surely the Romanians you mention are the ideal migrants? They come here, work for a while, then go home.
The point you make about seasonal work might be true in some cases, but it's hardly the majority is it? It also begs the question, if migrants didn’t do these jobs, then who would?
05 June 2018, 09:57 AM
#2751
Why are we back on Somalia again?
Let me say it again as you clearly didn't read it last time. Full Employment is a technical economic term, it's neither my term, or a 'cop out'.
Surely the Romanians you mention are the ideal migrants? They come here, work for a while, then go home.
The point you make about seasonal work might be true in some cases, but it's hardly the majority is it? It also begs the question, if migrants didn’t do these jobs, then who would?
Let me say it again as you clearly didn't read it last time. Full Employment is a technical economic term, it's neither my term, or a 'cop out'.
Surely the Romanians you mention are the ideal migrants? They come here, work for a while, then go home.
The point you make about seasonal work might be true in some cases, but it's hardly the majority is it? It also begs the question, if migrants didn’t do these jobs, then who would?
05 June 2018, 11:30 AM
#2753
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They don't get their 'tax back', as it's highly unlikely they would have earned enough to pay tax in the first place.
This is a fairly small sub-set of migrant workers.
The contribute by picking the crops, if they didn't, who would?
05 June 2018, 11:35 AM
#2754
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It's not a 'load of bollox' it's an important measure. Beyond this point inflation starts to build, that why 0% unemployment is economically undesirable.
You ignored the point I made earlier about employment; we have around 800k vacancies, and roughly 50% of that number actively seeking work.
Not to mention the 3m+ migrants working currently in our economy, what do you think would happen without them?
05 June 2018, 07:16 PM
#2757
ok so you say they don't earn enough to pay tax i beg to differ (the wife works with them) they infest the local seasonal work (holiday camps ) line the pocket of said campsite owner/farmer spend a few quid in tesco and then go home, i have spoken to 2 who speak reasonable english they are both claiming child benefit for kids back home and are sending home about 1200-1400 a month SO APART FROM DOING A JOB SOME HOMEGROWN LAYABOUT SHOULD BE FORCED TO DO PLEASE REMIND ME HOW DO THEY CONTRIBUTE AGAIN
05 June 2018, 07:50 PM
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ok so you say they don't earn enough to pay tax i beg to differ (the wife works with them) they infest the local seasonal work (holiday camps ) line the pocket of said campsite owner/farmer spend a few quid in tesco and then go home, i have spoken to 2 who speak reasonable english they are both claiming child benefit for kids back home and are sending home about 1200-1400 a month SO APART FROM DOING A JOB SOME HOMEGROWN LAYABOUT SHOULD BE FORCED TO DO PLEASE REMIND ME HOW DO THEY CONTRIBUTE AGAIN
So they earn more than £11,800 in a season? If so, how much more?
05 June 2018, 09:46 PM
#2759
ok so you say they don't earn enough to pay tax i beg to differ (the wife works with them) they infest the local seasonal work (holiday camps ) line the pocket of said campsite owner/farmer spend a few quid in tesco and then go home, i have spoken to 2 who speak reasonable english they are both claiming child benefit for kids back home and are sending home about 1200-1400 a month SO APART FROM DOING A JOB SOME HOMEGROWN LAYABOUT SHOULD BE FORCED TO DO PLEASE REMIND ME HOW DO THEY CONTRIBUTE AGAIN
And these are the people you bemoan as they undercut the locals? I wouldn't mind knowing how these people are managing to persuade all these farmers to pay them a shed load of money for one of the most unskilled pieces of work out there!
And if they are undercutting the locals, what were the farmers previously paying them, £20 an hour?
I'm in the wrong job........
