joz8968

iTrader: (13)

It's clearly going to end up as: 'Brexit Lite'.

dpb

Madscoob ain't going like this . All those pesky easteners snaffling his strawberries at a rate of twenty quid an hour

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

here you are they have done the maths for us
They don't get their 'tax back', as it's highly unlikely they would have earned enough to pay tax in the first place.so i ask again how do they contribute apart from lining farmers and campsite owners pockts oh and the local supermarket,


This is a fairly small sub-set of migrant workers. ok so why panic saying who would do the jobs, oh and as per itv news a farmer said he was paying £10 a hour to pick potatoes but only payed them if they where working, ie it rains day off can't work ground to wet, as for your calculation of 11800 per season you completely forgot the fact that they are allowed to claim child benefit for children back home in a eu country, thats how they can send home a lot of cash, plus the fact that they share housing and all the bills,child benefit in uk £20 per week child benefit in poland £6 per MONTH

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

EVERYONE KNOWS THE SCORE. some admit it some don't even martin admitted they don't earn enough to pay tax, someone on here please PROOVE with figures and facts that importing UNSKILLED labour actually benefits the uk, and i mean any other form of gain other than lining the pockets of the allready rich ie big corps and farmers and any other industry that is able to employ people who for the most don't understand our language and will work for peanuts claim the top up benefits and then go home again

dpb

Is NFU president head of nasty money grabbing conglomerate ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...nce-birmingham

From what I can tell EU child benefits account for 0.25 % claims

Mr Fuji

If you don't pay earn enough to pay tax, what's the problem? A huge number of people in the UK are below the tax threshhold, but yet they are able to benefit from all sorts of public services wihtout paying a penny in to them.

But, assuming these people have to eat, sleep somewhere, but petrol, use public transport, they are spending money, UK businesses are benefitting from their spending, just as they do from non tax paying Brits. And unlike the non tax paying Brits, if they are not here all year round, as you say, or are only here for a few years, then they won't be burden on those public services as much. If anything, it's better than having UK people!

As for benefit claiming, each EU State sets its own rules. The UK government has set the rules that allow them to claim money and send it home, not the EU.

Mr Fuji

Oh you're letting uncomfortable facts get in the way of rhetoric, the Wrexit crowd won't stand for that

dpb

All those well off farmers , getting wealthy off the migrant seasonal workers lol

Realistically you and i are going have to cough up to support them once were out the eu


All that land , all that land - how can the not be wealthy

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And once again I ask:


WHO THE FLYING FUKC PICKED ALL THE CROPS BEFORE THE EASTERN EUROPEAN SCUM DID IT, IF WE NEED THEM SO MUCH??????????????????????????????????????


Jeez, I cannot believe you set of ******* are still peddling the same lies......

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

Answer - historically, it has been itinerant Irish workers, Romanies, child labourers, working class families from the Black Country and the East End of London. Eastern Europeans have been the bulk of the seasonal workforce since 1945, when the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme came into existence. Following the Industrial Revolution, the rural workforce was depleted so much that itinerant migrant workers have, ever since, done most of the work. It's nothing new. Back in the 70s, youngsters from the UK would travel to France and Spain for grape picking and fruit harvesting. Skilled and semi-skilled British workers would travel to Germany to do building and construction. I did a few months stint in Holland at a powdered milk factory back then. Migrant workers have been a thing in Europe for a very long time.

dpb

With 10 million larger population ?

dpb

http://theconversation.com/who-picke...-workers-63279

Martin2005

Why don't you just say what you really mean...

'I don't like foreigners'
At least I'd understand where you're coming from then.

We have 3.4 million migrants working in our economy. There are 1.4 million unemployed. There are 800,000 job vacancies, and only are 400,000 currently seeking work.

As our American friends would say...

'You do the math'

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

If you don't pay earn enough to pay tax, what's the problem? A huge number of people in the UK are below the tax threshhold, but yet they are able to benefit from all sorts of public services wihtout paying a penny in to them. WHY ADD more then ? how can it possibly be beneficial to the uk as a whole ? apart from lining the pockets of the allready loaded and enabling people to sit on thier sofa and recieve benefits so generous it aint worth thier while working ?

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

no problem lets, the 3.4million are allowing 400;000 to sit at home on thier **** because there are no low skilled vacancies or the jobs don't pay enough to make it worth thier while working, and all the while the rich get richer and the middle class get a bit worse off and the poor get poorer and the unemployed well they stay the same (after ALL least we forget they VOTE )

dpb

Our weak pound economy due to brexit means they don't think it's worth coming anyway.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...iness-44230865

BMWhere?

If the UK benefits system allows people to be lazy and sit on their soft while cashing in the benefits, then that is a problem of the UK benefits system! There is no need to leave the EU to change the benefits system to ensure people can't get away without working! In Germany you have to pay in for 6 months before you can claim anything and then what you can claim is related to what you have paid in! That also means that EU migrants can't claim anything without paying in because the Germans can't either!


Someone has to do the seasonal work and if Brits aren't doing it (and seemingly haven't be doing it for the last 200 years!), then we need immigrants to do it. The people at the bottom don't pay tax, only NI's (so they are always paying for healthcare!), but work for other people who do pay tax and also pay tax on goods and services they buy and pay rent. In turn, the people who benefit from the immigrants spending also then pay tax and the chain goes onwards and upwards and a lot of tax is paid.


Funnily enough, this is exactly Alcazars justification of how he contributes to the local French economy without working there!

Martin2005

Well we're not going to get very far with this discussion if you can't answer the question are we?


Instead of 'doing the math', you just regurgitate the same old unsubstantiated clap-trap!

hodgy0_2

so **** all then

thanks

dpb

Just how many of the 28k shop jobs are being lost due to Brexit

BMWhere?

Thats difficult to say as the high-street has been in decline for years due to the rise in online shopping.


Certainly shops like Poundlworld who aren't really able to raise pricing are being hit hardest by the weak pound. So their fall can be more attributed to Brexit.


More up-market stores like House of Fraser, and today New-Look is looking troublesome, is probably less to do with Brexit and more to do with managements failure to adapt to the modern high-street and internet shopping. Although the drop in consumer spending as a result of the Brexit related inflation income squeeze, is maybe the last nail in the coffin.

hodgy0_2

JLR moving all production for LR Discovery to Slovakia - originally they stated it would be additional to UK production lines, now those UK lines will close

in return they have made vague commitments to produce electric cars here

but in parallel moves JLR have moved some of its R&D to Ireland - this should come as no surprise and is inevitable (and arguably more telling)

All the technical standards for future car making (Electric / Self Drive) will come from the EU - they will be developed by Brussels and adopted worldwide (yes even by us)

it is called the "Brussels effect"

https://www.ft.com/content/7059dbf8-...6-21cc87a2edde

"One of the most striking features of Britain’s looming departure from the EU is its potential as an indicator of how the battle for regulatory supremacy between the EU and the US is faring. When the UK finally exits the EU, it will discover that the government’s beliefs that it can leave behind the EU’s regulatory straitjacket to launch itself freely into the world trading system are very much mistaken. Not only will it have to keep complying with EU rules to sell into the continental European market, but in some cases the UK will have to choose which of the mutually incompatible sets of EU and US regulations it wants to adhere to in order to trade"

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...1&context=nulr


"ABSTRACT—This Article examines the unprecedented and deeply underestimated global power that the European Union is exercising through its legal institutions and standards, and how it successfully exports that influence to the rest of the world. Without the need to use international institutions or seek other nations’ cooperation, the EU has a strong and growing ability to promulgate regulations that become entrenched in the legal frameworks of developed and developing markets alike, leading to a notable “Europeanization” of many important aspects of global commerce. The Article identifies the precise conditions for and the specific mechanism through which this externalization of EU’s standards unfolds."

so you can see JLR developing a state of the art R&D facility in Ireland (The EU) is really a no brainer

https://media.jaguarlandrover.com/en...land-rd-centre

"Working alongside Jaguar Land Rover’s engineering team in the UK, the Shannon facility has an important role to play in realising the company’s vision for electric and automated driving vehicles. It will develop new technologies to support electrification and self-driving features on future Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles."

the UK will see the gradual decline of car making / design / R&D / Motor Sport (F1 etc) - sure there may well be a few bolt together assembly lines but that will be the size of it

"Vote Leave - Take Back Control"

BMWhere?

To be honest, I don't thing car design, R&D and motorsport will be that affected by Brexit. It doesn't really matter where you design a car as there is no real import or export associated with it, so design and R&D centers could be located anywhere. The UK is currently the world leader for motor industry R&D and the facilities at MISRA are second to none and the motor industry would require a huge investment to move them elsewhere with very little gain. The big factor though is the access to the talent - if immigration problems make it difficult to attract the most talented people in the industry to the UK, then that could become a reason to leave the UK. The most talented people are of course not all EU citizens though, so that would be less of a Brexit issue as the general anti immigration trend in the UK.


As for moving production abroad, then is entirely a different issue. For any companies who's major market is within the EU, then it will be advantageous to keep manufacturing within the EU if the UK leaves with no customs union agreement. Many larger car manufactures have manufacturing in several countries globally, manufacturing the same cars to meet regional regulations within the regulatory areas and thus simplifying the type approvals and any import restrictions. Thats why Nissan, Honda and Co. have factories in the UK to supply the EU markets. Its not just the car industry though, there are many companies that will want to keep manufacturing within the EU customs union. All those companies will have made Brexit contingency plans and the longer we go on with no clear Brexit strategy from the government, the more those companies will have to start enacting their plans. Its already plainly clear that investment in the UK manufacturing sector has stagnated.


Many companies are ready and willing to invest in the UK, but are not willing to make those investments until the Brexit question is answered. As time goes on, the companies can no longer afford to delay their investments and are instead taking the low risk option of redirecting their investments elsewhere. JLR is a prime example here where they are hedging their strategy. By making the new investments in <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44438846">Slovakia and Ireland and moving vehicle production of the Disco solely to Slovakia, they are keeping manufacturing of a key model within the EU. They are at the same time claiming the move will free up space in Solihull for "future electric models", for which the investment can still be delayed. If they Brexit deal is soft, then its likely JLR will stick to this and make the new investments in the UK, but a bad Brexit deal will certainly mean this investment will go to Slovakia or possibly Ireland.


I think we'll be seeing more and more of these kind of news stories over the coming months and companies can no longer delay their UK planned investments and take the Brexit safe options instead.

hodgy0_2

I think motorsport will be effected actually - every time they load up their trucks to go to a Euro GP they will have to produce a carnet for virtually every piece of kit - down to the last nut and bolt

at present they simply load and go - with no border checks

so costs and admin will increase, not insurmountable - but on marginal decisions it may sway a move to the EU

sure R&D can be done anywhere - but it makes sense to do it where the regulations are being defined - aka in the EU, and post Brexit we will not be able to type approve any vehicles (or components) for sale in the EU, again not insurmountable - just and increase in costs and red tape

MISRA?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Re:Land Rover. It makes no economic sense to make a vehicle with almost identical floorpan pressings and drivetrains as its co-models in parallel in a different country. The tooling will need to be duplicated. Same goes for engines, Control units, heater boxes, seat assemblies etc.

Unless the news hacks meant ASSEMBLY is moving to Slovakia. In which case most of it is just going to be transported from its normal place of manufacture to be thrown together somewhere else. Kind of what happens already. The alternate situation is everything on the shared platforms is moving (that'll mean Range Rover and Range Rover Sport will also move).

No love lost from me though, after stripping the whole interior out of a Evoque to search for an unlisted earth point that was causing electrical gremlins that it had since new...to find a crossthreaded Earth bolt only half screwed in, nice.

Point to note a lot of VWs and Audis components are of Slovak origin as well as car assembly of certain models, it appears to be a booming business over there. So it's possible JLR are already using Slovak manufacturers for OE components and were probably considering moving regardless of the UK's economic position...I'll pay more attention next time I tear apart a recent one to find a elusive dodgy earth fixing.

BMWhere?

MISRA = Motor Industry Software Reliability Association, although I actually meant to type MIRA (Motor Industry Research Association), although both UK based.


For international motorsport such as F1 or WRC, the teams will already be producing all the paperwork for races in non EU countries, so the additional overhead will be relatively small if they need to do it for EU countries, particularly compared to the cost of moving the factories. Only an EU only international series would require new paperwork that hadn't previously be done, but again, I dount the cost would be significant enough to justify moving their base, although it could be a factor to pulling out of a race series.

borat52

You have to dig into the different migrants.
UK born workers average £15.33 per hour. A8/A2 (eastern europe) migrants average £9.33 an hour.

Very hard to imagine anyone cohort averaging £9.33 paying more in tax then they draw in services/benefits.

I'm all for migration, but it should be cut off at the point where the migrants are a net draw on the tax revenue.

Towards the bottom here is the data:
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.a...labour-market/

dpb

They're probably picking strawberries / hand car washes!

Tidgy

If you really think JLR decision was anything to do with brexit your a bit of a fool. It's simple economics.

BMWhere?

I agree its simple economics along with risk mitigation. Your the fool if you believe that Brexit has no economic impact and is not a significant factor in a companies future investment strategy!