So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
01 October 2017, 05:23 PM
#1771
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Scotland is a different kettle of fish - the EU would potentially see this as winning back a region which will otherwise be leaving the EU, so they're more likely to be in favour. For the record I believe if enough people want that vote for independence, then it should go ahead, but I think focus on it has dwindled since oil prices collapsed, and I think they would choose to remain as part of the UK.
The Catalan vote is different as this throws up a whole host of issues for the EU. Other than it being totally against their ideals, it also raises the question of debt. Even if the Catalan region agreed to take on an equal cut of Spain's debt, based on GDP per capita, that would leave Spain struggling to pay their share, as they lose their most productive region. This would raise bond yields for Spanish debt, increase chances of default - you've got another European debt crisis on your hands before you know it. If they played hard ball and refused to take a cut of Spain's debt then you've got even worse problems.
This would also likely lead to other separatist movements gathering speed - Basque region (another productive area and 2.5m people), Flanders region etc. Again it goes against the EU ideals - they'll want these outbreaks of democracy crushing, but they'll want the host countries government to be the driver in this to protect face for the EU.
What are your views on the Catalan vote, do you believe they should have the chance for a democratic vote for independence?
The Catalan vote is different as this throws up a whole host of issues for the EU. Other than it being totally against their ideals, it also raises the question of debt. Even if the Catalan region agreed to take on an equal cut of Spain's debt, based on GDP per capita, that would leave Spain struggling to pay their share, as they lose their most productive region. This would raise bond yields for Spanish debt, increase chances of default - you've got another European debt crisis on your hands before you know it. If they played hard ball and refused to take a cut of Spain's debt then you've got even worse problems.
This would also likely lead to other separatist movements gathering speed - Basque region (another productive area and 2.5m people), Flanders region etc. Again it goes against the EU ideals - they'll want these outbreaks of democracy crushing, but they'll want the host countries government to be the driver in this to protect face for the EU.
What are your views on the Catalan vote, do you believe they should have the chance for a democratic vote for independence?
Secondly I don't remember too many EU shock troops on the ground during the EU referendum, a vote several orders of magnitude more important to the EU.
Of course, the EU don't want separatist to win the vote. But what you conjured up (without a single proof point) is just your wishful thinking.
The Spanish government will fight tooth and nail against the separatists, their opposition to this is far far stronger than the EU's.
I'd like a vote for London and the South East to separate from the rest of the UK, we'd be richer, more forward looking, and still in the EU.😀
01 October 2017, 05:30 PM
#1772
01 October 2017, 05:33 PM
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01 October 2017, 06:35 PM
#1774
EU leaders reluctant to condemn the action of riot police used against its own people in a peaceful referendum. Report from Guardian.
You think any caring, democratic organisation would be outraged that one of its own leading members could act in such a violent way towards its own people. You would easily be confused they had an ulterior motive to quash any attempts to have the local population decide their own destiny?
You think any caring, democratic organisation would be outraged that one of its own leading members could act in such a violent way towards its own people. You would easily be confused they had an ulterior motive to quash any attempts to have the local population decide their own destiny?
01 October 2017, 08:25 PM
#1775
From Guy Verhofstadt, a senior EU politician: (note the condemnation of violence by police)
"I don’t want to interfere in the domestic issues of Spain but I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.
On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.
And on the other hand - even when based on court decisions - the use of disproportionate violence to stop this.
In the European Union we try to find solutions through political dialogue and with respect for the constitutional order as enshrined in the Treaties, especially in art. 4.
It’s high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution in which all political parties, including the opposition in the Catalan Parliament, are involved and with respect for the Constitutional and legal order of the country, is the way forward."
Statement from UK Foreign Office spokesperson: (no condemnation of violence by police)
"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people.
We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld.
Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."
"I don’t want to interfere in the domestic issues of Spain but I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.
On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.
And on the other hand - even when based on court decisions - the use of disproportionate violence to stop this.
In the European Union we try to find solutions through political dialogue and with respect for the constitutional order as enshrined in the Treaties, especially in art. 4.
It’s high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution in which all political parties, including the opposition in the Catalan Parliament, are involved and with respect for the Constitutional and legal order of the country, is the way forward."
Statement from UK Foreign Office spokesperson: (no condemnation of violence by police)
"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people.
We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld.
Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."
Last edited by Sad Weevil; 01 October 2017 at 08:40 PM.
01 October 2017, 10:43 PM
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The absolute last thing the EU wants is regional issues threatening their plans for a superstate. Juncker had already said this vote would be illegal, but clearly they want to local Government (Spain in this case) to be seen as the bad guy, not them. Like you say, conspicuous in their absence, even with regards to the Police brutality - only Guy Verhofstadt breaking ranks to condone it.
The next time there's a demonstration called in Barcelona or whatever they chose to have it, the protestors will know what to expect from the EU-backed stormtroopers, and they'll be ready. It'll get messy.
I see there were protestors outside the EU offices in Edinburgh waving Catalan flags;
Really shocked to see even Fire Fighters taking a beating from the EU-backed thugs;
01 October 2017, 10:48 PM
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Agreed, from their perspective the EU would've been better to do what they did with Greece in 2015 - tell the Spanish government to let the vote go ahead, then if the result isn't what the EU want, declare it illegal.
The absolute last thing the EU wants is regional issues threatening their plans for a superstate. Juncker had already said this vote would be illegal, but clearly they want to local Government (Spain in this case) to be seen as the bad guy, not them. Like you say, conspicuous in their absence, even with regards to the Police brutality - only Guy Verhofstadt breaking ranks to condone it.
The next time there's a demonstration called in Barcelona or whatever they chose to have it, the protestors will know what to expect from the EU-backed stormtroopers, and they'll be ready. It'll get messy.
I see there were protestors outside the EU offices in Edinburgh waving Catalan flags;
https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/st...81623839772673
Really shocked to see even Fire Fighters taking a beating from the EU-backed thugs;
https://twitter.com/EKsaysYES/status/914480530028158976
The absolute last thing the EU wants is regional issues threatening their plans for a superstate. Juncker had already said this vote would be illegal, but clearly they want to local Government (Spain in this case) to be seen as the bad guy, not them. Like you say, conspicuous in their absence, even with regards to the Police brutality - only Guy Verhofstadt breaking ranks to condone it.
The next time there's a demonstration called in Barcelona or whatever they chose to have it, the protestors will know what to expect from the EU-backed stormtroopers, and they'll be ready. It'll get messy.
I see there were protestors outside the EU offices in Edinburgh waving Catalan flags;
https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/st...81623839772673
Really shocked to see even Fire Fighters taking a beating from the EU-backed thugs;
https://twitter.com/EKsaysYES/status/914480530028158976
I know you hate the EU, and will try to pin anything/everything on them. But they're simple not involved in this.
There is absolutely no evidence to support your view here, nothing, zilch.
You are once again shamelessly using this issue to further your reactionary views.
I actually said EU stormtroopers as a joke, but you're that bonkers you actually think it's true.
Pull yourself together man
Last edited by Martin2005; 01 October 2017 at 10:54 PM.
01 October 2017, 10:52 PM
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You're just making it up again.
I know you hate the EU, and will try to pin anything/everything on them. But they're simple not involved in this.
There is absolutely no evidence to support your view here, nothing, zilch.
You are once again shamelessly using this issue to further your reactionary views.
I know you hate the EU, and will try to pin anything/everything on them. But they're simple not involved in this.
There is absolutely no evidence to support your view here, nothing, zilch.
You are once again shamelessly using this issue to further your reactionary views.
01 October 2017, 10:55 PM
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01 October 2017, 11:00 PM
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Do you see Brussels putting out an official statement condemning the actions by member state Spain for the Police brutality? No, because they're acting in Brussels interests/demands. Their silence speaks volumes.
Seriously Martin, just wake up.
Now things get interesting, Catalonia has just said they have won the right to declare statehood;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719
Seriously Martin, just wake up.
Now things get interesting, Catalonia has just said they have won the right to declare statehood;
"My government, in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."
He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way".
He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way".
Last edited by Petem95; 01 October 2017 at 11:04 PM.
01 October 2017, 11:04 PM
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According to your daft view of events, the Spanish government is ok with the vote (despite decades of vehement opposition), and it's the EU that are opposing this. Really?
01 October 2017, 11:13 PM
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Just take off your EU rose-tined glasses and think about this.
Last edited by Petem95; 01 October 2017 at 11:14 PM.
01 October 2017, 11:20 PM
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Of course the Spanish government isn't happy with the vote, but you're saying the EU are fine with this?!!! Of course the EU oppose it, we've been over this numerous time, chrriiiiist! You're making out like the EU are impartial, this vote goes against everything they're about, it's the opposite of their goal of a united centrally governed superstate, it's likely to trigger another debt crisis in the Eurozone - they have a vested interest in the vote being stopped or result being overthrown (but too late for that now).
Just take off your EU rose-tined glasses and think about this.
Just take off your EU rose-tined glasses and think about this.
It's your guess work with added supposition, coupled with wishful thinking that I'm against.
You've somehow managed to go from the EU will be opposed to this, to EU Stormtroopers are on the ground bashing heads.
The British government are opposed to this too, are there some of our guys on the ground too?
Last edited by Martin2005; 01 October 2017 at 11:21 PM.
01 October 2017, 11:27 PM
#1785
The EU has no power or permissions to get involved in a member country's internal issues. Despite what a lot of brexit supporters think, the EU does not rule over Spain. EU member countries actually do have sovereignty. It was the Spanish judicial system that ruled the referendum illegal. That's where the problem started. The Catalunya regional government took the decision to go ahead with it regardless. The Spanish government's response has been appalling and counterproductive. Spain's problem is that if Catalunya became independent, and Galicia and the Basque region followed suit, what would be left of Spain would become unviable as a nation. It's a big nasty mess for sure, but it's not the EU's doing. As I said before, they were pretty silent around the Scottish referendum too. A European Commission spokesperson said to reporters in Brussels: “The commission only has the powers which are given to it and when it comes to this position we have a position which goes back to 2004. It is not an improvised position; it is the result of the competences that we have a position that has been expressed by the President: we must respect the constitutional order and the legal framework of each member state.”
01 October 2017, 11:27 PM
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That level of Police brutality on citizens in an EU member state, and no official statements of condemnation - nothing from Brussels but silence...
Does that not make you think Martin?
Does that not make you think Martin?
01 October 2017, 11:30 PM
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The EU has no power or permissions to get involved in a member country's internal issues. Despite what a lot of brexit supporters think, the EU does not rule over Spain. EU member countries actually do have sovereignty. It was the Spanish judicial system that ruled the referendum illegal. That's where the problem started. The Catalunya regional government took the decision to go ahead with it regardless. The Spanish government's response has been appalling and counterproductive. Spain's problem is that if Catalunya became independent, and Galicia and the Basque region followed suit, what would be left of Spain would become unviable as a nation. It's a big nasty mess for sure, but it's not the EU's doing. As I said before, they were pretty silent around the Scottish referendum too. A European Commission spokesperson said to reporters in Brussels: “The commission only has the powers which are given to it and when it comes to this position we have a position which goes back to 2004. It is not an improvised position; it is the result of the competences that we have a position that has been expressed by the President: we must respect the constitutional order and the legal framework of each member state.”
Saved you a post Pete.
01 October 2017, 11:39 PM
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Your total and utter unwavering support for the EU is borderline fanatical, actually almost frightening.
01 October 2017, 11:45 PM
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It seems that in your eyes anything other than total distain is seen as 'unwavering support'. It makes you a borderline fruit loop.
Last edited by Martin2005; 01 October 2017 at 11:46 PM.
02 October 2017, 12:00 AM
#1790
I'm confused by the brexit supporters stance on this. On one hand, they complain that the EU has taken the sovereignty of member states away, on the other hand, they are dismayed when the EU won't interfere with a state's sovereignty. If the devolved Scottish Parliament decided to call a second independence referendum, and the UK Parliament declared it illegal, would you then want the EU to get involved and override the UK Parliament's sovereignty?
Last edited by Sad Weevil; 02 October 2017 at 12:15 AM.
02 October 2017, 10:29 AM
#1792
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your confused??????
The Bat **** crazy Brexidiots are really confused
The EU can't win
It condemns - it is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation
It does noting - Oooohh the EU is doing nothing "how outrageous"
when you are so adept as the Brexidiots at hypocritical bull****ting - any position is possible - simultaneously
The Bat **** crazy Brexidiots are really confused
The EU can't win
It condemns - it is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation
It does noting - Oooohh the EU is doing nothing "how outrageous"
when you are so adept as the Brexidiots at hypocritical bull****ting - any position is possible - simultaneously
02 October 2017, 10:41 AM
#1794
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Hodgy:
I have no idea what part of the UK you are from, or even if English is your first language.
But back when I was at GRAMMAR SCHOOL, the expression "Let's" was a suggestion.
As in, "Let's go to cinemas".
It implied something you'd LIKE to do and was asking if others thought so too. Almost a question.
So your oft-repeated assertion that it means "We will..." is just plain wrong.
And I'm further afraid that your bitterness is leading you into peppering every post with insults. Time you argued properly and not on a personal level?
I have no idea what part of the UK you are from, or even if English is your first language.
But back when I was at GRAMMAR SCHOOL, the expression "Let's" was a suggestion.
As in, "Let's go to cinemas".
It implied something you'd LIKE to do and was asking if others thought so too. Almost a question.
So your oft-repeated assertion that it means "We will..." is just plain wrong.
And I'm further afraid that your bitterness is leading you into peppering every post with insults. Time you argued properly and not on a personal level?
lol, sorry
your old argument when you where defending the NHS Bus claim was to say
"Leave not mean all the money we give to the EU should go to the NHS, just that some should be used"
and deployed the silly semantics argument
but now I have shown they actually did say that all the money should go to the NHS
you deploy the silly semantics argument
you laughably change the goal posts - and hope no one notices
02 October 2017, 10:52 AM
#1795
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
02 October 2017, 11:13 AM
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your confused??????
The Bat **** crazy Brexidiots are really confused
The EU can't win
It condemns - it is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation
It does noting - Oooohh the EU is doing nothing "how outrageous"
when you are so adept as the Brexidiots at hypocritical bull****ting - any position is possible - simultaneously
The Bat **** crazy Brexidiots are really confused
The EU can't win
It condemns - it is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation
It does noting - Oooohh the EU is doing nothing "how outrageous"
when you are so adept as the Brexidiots at hypocritical bull****ting - any position is possible - simultaneously
02 October 2017, 11:18 AM
#1797
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02 October 2017, 11:55 AM
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My mother and her partner have been up to Wales for a visit and the latter was and is a Brexiter. Over dinner he blamed the EU for everything from the use of the burqa (which I pointed has been banned in France) to the cessation of capital punishment. He's Pete and Alcazar's audience and the audience is large.
02 October 2017, 12:07 PM
#1799
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It's unsophisticated sophistry. Simpler to call it cow dung.
My mother and her partner have been up to Wales for a visit and the latter was and is a Brexiter. Over dinner he blamed the EU for everything from the use of the burqa (which I pointed has been banned in France) to the cessation of capital punishment. He's Pete and Alcazar's audience and the audience is large.
My mother and her partner have been up to Wales for a visit and the latter was and is a Brexiter. Over dinner he blamed the EU for everything from the use of the burqa (which I pointed has been banned in France) to the cessation of capital punishment. He's Pete and Alcazar's audience and the audience is large.
we where at a dinner party a few months ago - and it was pretty clear one of the guest was a Brexiteer
he came over as incredibly defensive
my wife just thought he was a bit thick and extremely arrogant (amusingly his wife seemed to agree!!!!!!)
I expect the hard core Brexit Jihadis will simply "hunker down" - and get more and more hysterical making more and more outlandish and crazy claims (as we see on this thread)
the less hardcore probably wish it would all "go away" (but sadly it isn't - not for a long long time - decisions have consequences)
02 October 2017, 12:30 PM
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TBH James, I hardly come across the in them "in the wild" so too speak
we where at a dinner party a few months ago - and it was pretty clear one of the guest was a Brexiteer
he came over as incredibly defensive
my wife just thought he was a bit thick and extremely arrogant (amusingly his wife seemed to agree!!!!!!)
I expect the hard core Brexit Jihadis will simply "hunker down" - and get more and more hysterical making more and more outlandish and crazy claims (as we see on this thread)
the less hardcore probably wish it would all "go away" (but sadly it isn't - not for a long long time - decisions have consequences)
we where at a dinner party a few months ago - and it was pretty clear one of the guest was a Brexiteer
he came over as incredibly defensive
my wife just thought he was a bit thick and extremely arrogant (amusingly his wife seemed to agree!!!!!!)
I expect the hard core Brexit Jihadis will simply "hunker down" - and get more and more hysterical making more and more outlandish and crazy claims (as we see on this thread)
the less hardcore probably wish it would all "go away" (but sadly it isn't - not for a long long time - decisions have consequences)