neil-h

You almost had it there, it was soooooooooooo close. I guess some people just don't understand that there's a bigger picture. If we're going to progress as a species then we need to reduce inequality across the globe, not widen it like the plans you advocate.

As for your parting comments, I don't think that's even worth dignifying with a proper response. It just shows how far off the mark you are.

eggsandcherry

Hi Guys, amused by all your comment about the immigrants, problem is the ones already here (now think their British), will and are out breeding the British, they are in the process of taking all the important jobs, it's only a matter of time, this will become a third world country, and in time it will all happen again as they then do it to the next country of there choice, after they ruin this one, glad I'm old, people died to make this county what it is, now we are invaded by trash and we are asked to help them, not me, pull up the draw bridge, vote UKIP.

Geezer

Let's contract your narrow world even further. Why do you think you should pay taxes to sort out the poor and under privileged of the UK? IIRC, you are Scottish, why help the English, the Welsh ir the Irish? Why help anyone except your family and friends?

Most people in the UK on benefits are indigenous, plenty of them will never have worked a tap. I personally know quite a few people who have not worked since they left school and work the system. You seem ok with sorting that mess out, despite them not being related to you in any shape or form whatsoever except they happened to be born in the same sovereign state.

Now expand it to the normal world view we all exist in. Why is that different?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

My hatred of the EC BEGAN because of France, when I realised that the UK seemed to be the only EC country which enforced every rule, regulation and edict TO THE HILT, no matter what the UK population thought of it.

Many, many years ago, I was watching Calendar, local news. It was talking about the effects the fishing quotas were having on places like Grimsby and Hull.
They were doing a piece to camera on the quayside at Boulogne, where a very grave harbour-master agreed that yes, quotas were necessary and yes, the ban on landing herring was, sadly, also necessary.

The interviewer then turned slightly, pointed at a French boat, and said, "But look monsieur, aren't they unloading herring there, right now?"

At which the harbour master, without batting an eyelid, turned obviously and deliberately AWAY from where the man was pointing, and responded, "I don't see any herring. That would be against the rules".

Recently, we in Scunny have watched helplessly as first Italy, then Germany, gave help to their steel industries in the form of subsidies to energy costs and waiving green taxes, despite it being firmly AGAINST EC legislation.

Meanwhile, OUR government ASKED for permission, had it denied, and resorted to the usual, throwing theoir hands up in horror and telling the Steel industry, "Well, we tried, they won't let us...what can weeeeee do?"

Dishonesty from the EC countries and dishonesty from our government.

We need to be out.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Here's another for Neil and Martin.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-migrants.html

This is being played down (again) by our dishonest media.

75 million Muslims coming to a country near you...soon!

Or at least, having the right so to do. How many will then be camped out trying to get to the UK?

And won't that, if Turkey join, severely alter the whole demographic of the EC?

Sharia Law anyone? LOL (That last isn't meant seriously, before the usual liberals have an apoplectic fit).

dpb

how can they take the 'important' jobs without being more qualified . Are you suggesting theres some kind of preferential treatment on grounds of , what , skin colour/ accent ?

plundering these third world countries is whats enabled us to become rich . But now theyre getting their own back by being more skilled and working for less than your closeted Ne'er-do-well britisher who thinks hes owed a 'first world' living

neil-h

How would leaving the EU actually solve any of these problems? The need for sustainable fishing isn't going to go away, neither are the issues with our/continental governments.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

But the government would no longer be constrained by rules that no-one follows but us?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Well at least ONE type of job guarantees an interview to people of ethnic descent, and at least on black celeb stated that he thought there should be more black people in higher paid jobs.
Just saying......

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I'm sorry, it is you who is wide of any decent mark.

How dare you say that people's problems in this country are somehow less important than those from a country which was mismanaged for years? Is that OUR fault? Did not Russia ought to be picking up the pieces?

Sorry, but I want every penny spent on the old, the infirm, the dying, the weak, the mentally ill, the homeless, the unemployed, FROM THE UK, whose parents/grandparents etc paid into our system, or who have paid into it themselves,before ANYTHING is given to ANY migrant from ANYWHERE!

We have built this system, we have paid for it. THEY haven't. THEIR counties have been mismanaged...not our fault. Yes you can feel sorry for them if you want, but sorry, grasshopper and ant?

As fort allowing your grandparents to be cold, hungry, ill-cared for, or badly looked after when ill, so that you can make yourself feel better by giving stuff to migrants....get real.

YOU would no more do that than I would, so all your posturing is just that....posturing.

hodgy0_2

You are right to highlight immigration, it is obviously an issue - more so for the poor and less well off

Yes it can put pressure on low paid jobs and public services

it is not all black and white - some figures show a net contribution from foreign workers etc etc, but I accept that figures can be banded about every which way - often perception is more important


What interests me is that do you really think people like Farage and Boris Johnson have people like your sons interest at heart

They back the same system that shuts young people out from the wealth created in London and the SE

The EU is not perfect, just as coming out will not bring the UK to its knees, the "haves" will probably not be affected that much, yes they may pay a little extra for domestic services, but apart from that ???

The low paid may have to work for low paid "foreign" wages


But I do look at the "outers" and their arguments and they seem based on pettiness and fear

They remind me of the guy at the restaurant who insist on going throu the bill declaring he did not have the "starter"

neil-h

That's the fault of our own government though, not the EU. We could always do as the rest of Europe does and **** off the rules that don't suit us. That being said however, even if we do leave I highly doubt many of those rules will disappear completely.

If you can't beat them, join them.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Sadly it continues to happen, and it directly affects me...we have maintained and repaired a portion of Caparo's vehicles and have done so since they were known as CMT since the 1990's. The knock on effect of Caparo's demise is a loss to our business to us. Which is tough enough as it is with the legislative hoops, taxes and intermediaries taking increasingly larger chunks of the pie.

Now, I have no problem with abiding by legislation if it's on a level playing field. But when we have China doing what it does, one has to question what use is the EU if it cannot address the issue of China producing everything without the legal, legislative or environmental constraints that EU countries have to (or are supposed to) abide by. Whilst the EU refuses to address this and give our industries the ability to compete with China, we will never progress.

One example is environmental levies on businesses, now I have no problem with the fact waste oil needs to be processed, we can't throw oil filters into land fill and we can't use high VOC solvent based paints in our spray booth. BUT when I find out that our fellow EU member countries have been side stepping environmental legislation by exporting their waste overseas to be "dealt with" (again, google it for sources) and others don't even bother with recycling. I have to say, hang on a minute that's not fair.

It just all adds up to point that I have succumbed to the notion that our UK politicians have no idea or interest in ensuring EU legislation works for our best interest. Cameron's little negotiations are just a drop in ocean and in my view shows that core issues that I believe that are wrong with the EU will never be addressed. All this hot air about the immigration legislation doesn't bother me too much we are not part of Shenzhen and our benefits abuse could just be altered to suit which would also sort out our home grown leaches too.

Come to think of it Child benefit...getting money for having kids. In a over populated world without saying: "woah, hang on there parents can you afford to have children? And if you can't then maybe, just maybe having children without the financual means is a bit selfish regardless of being British or Polish or whatever. You see, not a EU issue, but Cameron argued some new agreements with the EU anyway.

ScoobyWon't

I look at the "Inners" and see that they base their arguments on fear.

"We need Europe to stop terrorism" just like they stopped the attacks on Paris.

"We need European Army to counter Russia" so that's why Poland requested Nato troops, not European troops.

The Inners are scared that Great Britain can't survive without Europe. Funny enough we had a fairly large Empire which all came from this little island.

The EU just lurches from one disaster to the next. Grow some ***** and show the world that Britain isbstill Great.

neil-h

And the outters go on about long past glories by the sounds of it.

hodgy0_2

Sure, and I am on record - on this thread as saying those "letters" are unhelpfull and add little to the debate

And I agree the "fear card" on both side is rubbish

In the grande scheme of things neither option is "**** or bust"

But the world has moved on from the days of the Raj

hodgy0_2

@Neil - lol

I wrote my reply as you wrote yours

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

You're so small minded it beggars belief.

The thing is your Great Britain was built on the back of the blood, sweat, tears, mineral and intellectual wealth of other countries, your ancestors robbed, murdered, raped, cheated their way around the globe to make this British system you and others are so proud of, now that the chickens and their fleas are coming home to roost it's not quite so palatable, but it's still ok to let in Polish, Indian, West Indian, African etc,etc doctors and nurses as well as other highly qualified professionals causing a brain drain in their countries, but not the ones that follow their example.

UK PLC is now the victim of it's own marketing success and bare in mind it's successive governments that have encouraged this.

steve05wrx

Hi,
The population of India is approximately 20 times greater than the UK. They have plenty of doctors to go round and the ones that work in the UK are not affecting healthcare in India at all.
May Indian doctors get their primary qualifications in India then migrate to UK, Canada, USA, Australia etc to further their career and become consultants. They then work in those countries for some years (as pay back for the education they have received). They then go back to India and setup their own practice or join large hospital groups and bring Western values to that work. I know many doctors in India who proudly show their western qualifications on their nameplates and business cards - as it adds kudos to their practice in
India.
What our ancestors did during the days of the British Empire is well documented in history but I refuse to apologies for anything that they did - I was not there and had nothing to do with it (although, of course, it beggars belief at what was done in those times).
Cheers
Steve

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

There are also many from all over the world that don't go back, I know a few Indian doctors and a couple of surgeons one of whom is a good friends father and the other is his friend, both stayed in the Uk, I also know an African nurse that won't be going back, in my experience the only ones that tend to really want to go back are the Saudis.

As for the ancestor thing, I wouldn't expect you to apologise, why would you, the point I was making was that Britain became Great off the backs of foreigners and created an empire that was envied the world over and promoted as something fantastic, it's little wonder that people from less well off places want to go there and get a piece of the pie, after all it's no more than brits have been doing for centuries.

Another point is, the indigenous population don't want to clean toilets, mop floors and sweep the streets for minimum wage when they can sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle on their 50 inch plasma all day smoking and drinking while popping out more parasites, and haven't wanted to do so since the 1950's, someones got to do it, so who do you suggest? I doubt you'll be giving up your job to go back and clean toilets and neither will I.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

The British are no worse than the Philistines, Ottomans, Romans Macedonians, Russians, Germans, Dutch, Spanish, French, Portugese etc. for their global atrocities during their attempts to conquer and dominate.

It's a weak and petty argument; this referendum is about our future, not what we did when galivanting across the sea in wooden boats...and if the British didn't colonise India the Dutch, French or Portugese would have instead.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

The point I'm making (obviously not very well) is that the brits are quite happy to go around the world doing as they please, but when that world comes to britain the likes of Alcazar want to shut the door and say no thank you very much, britain for the brits, unfortunately it's way too late for that, the world is much smaller than it used to be, more so in the last 20yrs travel has become significantly easier and cheaper.

As our efforts overseas meddling in other countries affairs have now come to fruition in the form of a swarm of asylum seekers and economic migrants banging on the door, Britain is merely reaping the rewards of the seeds it has sown.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I don't why everyone is arguing. The die is cast. The online polls indicate that the Uk are going to leave the EU. The BBC and establishment are clambering around trying to convince us.

I for one made my mind up long before Mr. Cameron set on his adventures to win back powers/concessions.

hodgy0_2

what online polls?

RSMatt's Ranker.com?

neil-h

So that entirely invalidates what we did in our past? As for saying "oh well someone else would've done it" that's really not relevant, you can go through all sorts of hypothetical scenarios but that doesn't change the fact we have to live with what actually happened.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

While I agree with your sentiment and it's refreshing to find someone that acknowledges it, I in no way blame the son for the sins of the father, and indeed that's just the way it was back then.

The thing that bugs me is people like Alcazar that would have us all think much like JT with the god thing, that Queen Victoria waved a magic wand, there was a big flash and all of a sudden Britain was Great and everything was rosy in the garden.

So now it's a case of, if your name's not down you're not coming in, ooh unless of course you're a doctor.

Also saying things like these countries are screwed because of poor management, when maybe if we didn't steal all the well educated people as well as meddle in their affairs, Encourage corruption for our own ends, mineral rights, arms sales, contracts for comms systems and power plants etc,etc after they've blown everything up with the weapons we sold them, then maybe they'd be doing a lot better.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

So, ditchy, same question to you:

where WOULD you draw the line with immigrants, if at all? How many?

And WHEN would you say "wait, too much"? When it affects YOU personally? When it affects your family? Your friends?

You understand, I've seen through all the lefty, liberal posturing about the poor immigrants etc. When it comes down to it, like neil and martin, you would no more want it to affect YOUR and yours' wellbeing than would I.

So stop with the posturing. You are obviously a good person, but it doesn't wash that far, sorry.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

So you advocate that EVERY country ignores the rules, then? So what is the point of the EC?

The rules may NOT disappear, but our leaving means we would no longer be bound by any of their rules.

It's a bit like playing professional football: you play by the FIFA/UEFA/FA rules. If you play with your mates in the park, it's jumpers for goalposts, no sidelines and no limit to how long you play. Your rules, you aren't bound by others.

Staying in the EC with every country but us cheating is LUNACY!!! Would you, in all seriousness, join a game of poker, knowing you were the only one constrained by the rules?
No?
Me neither!

neil-h

Agreed, you shouldn't penalise the son for the sins of the father (or indeed the grandfather). But that being said we shouldn't be ignoring them all together.

No, I'd advocate looking at why everyone ignores the rules and finding a way to actually make it work. Everyone knows the EU is far from perfect but rather than debating how we'd make it better, we're debating whether or not we stay or go. As it stands there are too many vested interests running the EU.Just like in our internal politics, nobody wants to actually grab the bull by the horns and address the bigger picture.