View Poll Results: How will you vote in the EU referendum?
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EU Referendum
22 February 2016, 05:12 PM
#121
My reply smacks of nothing of the sort, when you consider the at least equally plausible explanation that during the entire period of existence of the EU, Western Europe was also united by the common military and political threat from the Eastern Block. Was it really likely that war would break out again between France and Germany for example, with the Soviet bear sitting poised to march westwards and invade both once they were suitably weakened by the fighting among themselves? I hardly think so.
22 February 2016, 05:18 PM
#123
I haven't got a clue which way to vote. There's too much disinformation, hearsay and propaganda being thrown around and a distinct lack of fact to make an informed decision. This lack of fact means that many people are likely to vote with their hearts instead of their heads and so this becomes an emotional response.
22 February 2016, 05:28 PM
#124
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You're missing the point that the EU members are doing their own thing, in their own interests, not taking the joint action that the council wants the members to take.
22 February 2016, 05:32 PM
#125
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My reply smacks of nothing of the sort, when you consider the at least equally plausible explanation that during the entire period of existence of the EU, Western Europe was also united by the common military and political threat from the Eastern Block. Was it really likely that war would break out again between France and Germany for example, with the Soviet bear sitting poised to march westwards and invade both once they were suitably weakened by the fighting among themselves? I hardly think so.
You'll have to do better than that. And, do not forget that Russia has been agressive to, yes you guessed it, a non EU country. They only did what they did when they tried to join the EU, they knew the game was up if they did. So you're happy to exit the EU, leave that security, as well as economic benefits.
You've obviously thought this through........................
22 February 2016, 05:34 PM
#126
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Likely?
again plenty of things that where once though of likely or indeed un-likely have left people with egg on their faces
history is full of people that have been left scratching their chins, saying "well who'd have though that would happen"
Alan Greenspan once thought is was very unlikely that simple market forces would allow a banking collapse
anyone who sells something based on what they 100% know will happen in the future is a idiot and anyone who believes them 100% is a fool imo
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 22 February 2016 at 05:36 PM.
22 February 2016, 06:00 PM
#127
Really? Have you forgotten the fall of the USSR and Warsaw Pact in 1989-1991? So for 25 years we have't had that threat. Russian agression has only become an issue in the last few years.
You'll have to do better than that. And, do not forget that Russia has been agressive to, yes you guessed it, a non EU country. They only did what they did when they tried to join the EU, they knew the game was up if they did. So you're happy to exit the EU, leave that security, as well as economic benefits.
You've obviously thought this through........................
You'll have to do better than that. And, do not forget that Russia has been agressive to, yes you guessed it, a non EU country. They only did what they did when they tried to join the EU, they knew the game was up if they did. So you're happy to exit the EU, leave that security, as well as economic benefits.
You've obviously thought this through........................
22 February 2016, 06:03 PM
#128
well I have no idea how the re-negotiations would go, neither do you or anyone for that matter
Likely?
again plenty of things that where once though of likely or indeed un-likely have left people with egg on their faces
history is full of people that have been left scratching their chins, saying "well who'd have though that would happen"
Alan Greenspan once thought is was very unlikely that simple market forces would allow a banking collapse
anyone who sells something based on what they 100% know will happen in the future is a idiot and anyone who believes them 100% is a fool imo
Likely?
again plenty of things that where once though of likely or indeed un-likely have left people with egg on their faces
history is full of people that have been left scratching their chins, saying "well who'd have though that would happen"
Alan Greenspan once thought is was very unlikely that simple market forces would allow a banking collapse
anyone who sells something based on what they 100% know will happen in the future is a idiot and anyone who believes them 100% is a fool imo
22 February 2016, 06:07 PM
#129
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Oh get real, will you? Even Russia sells us gas, despite being a state that's not far off from being a declared military foe. Yes, you're right, anything is possible, but if we're going to have a halfway sensible debate about this, can we at least try and stick to what's actually remotely credible?
I think you are the one that needs to "get real"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 22 February 2016 at 06:31 PM.
22 February 2016, 06:20 PM
#130
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LOL, I don't need to a damn thing. For starters, it's you who first waded in proposing a hypothesis here, so it's up to you to prove it, not for me or anyone else to disprove it. Quite aside from that though, the Eastern Block threat existed for nearly 50 years after the end of WWII, and even if it did eventually dissolve with the break-up of the Soviet Union, it's still an undeniable fact that by that time the bond of NATO membership and long-term common politico-military aims would inevitably have forged very close ties between the countries of the West, EU or no EU.
So you are obviously against being in the EU, prove we will be better out of it
22 February 2016, 06:29 PM
#131
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good article from the FT
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...7778e7377.html
"In a poll of more than 100 economists for the Financial Times at the start of 2016, more than three-quarters thought Brexit would adversely affect the UK’s medium-term economic prospects, nine times more than the 8 per cent who thought Britain’s economy would benefit."
and on trade deals
"But assertions that Britain will be better able to foster trade with third countries once it has left the EU are not yet very credible. Nor is it likely that the country can maintain the same access to the European single market while cutting down on regulation and budgetary transfers. "
now there is no single truth to all this - but anyone who tells you it would be "business as usual" - just without the club membership fees and freedom from the rules is talking boll0x - imo
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...7778e7377.html
"In a poll of more than 100 economists for the Financial Times at the start of 2016, more than three-quarters thought Brexit would adversely affect the UK’s medium-term economic prospects, nine times more than the 8 per cent who thought Britain’s economy would benefit."
and on trade deals
"But assertions that Britain will be better able to foster trade with third countries once it has left the EU are not yet very credible. Nor is it likely that the country can maintain the same access to the European single market while cutting down on regulation and budgetary transfers. "
now there is no single truth to all this - but anyone who tells you it would be "business as usual" - just without the club membership fees and freedom from the rules is talking boll0x - imo
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 22 February 2016 at 06:31 PM.
22 February 2016, 06:30 PM
#132
If you're going to be deliberately obtuse (yes, I know old habits die hard, but that doesn't make them good habits), I'll let you play in your little sandpit by yourself. I have plenty of cleaner and more interesting things to get on with.
22 February 2016, 06:37 PM
#133
What, like anything said about leaving the EU too? Everyone has a view, but saying "we will be better off leaving the EU" is purely supposition, as we are in the EU, you don't know what will happen out it. However, security and stability are tangible benefits that we have enjoyed. I don't have to prove it, you have to prove that we would not have had that if we had not been in the EU. That is simply impossible.
So you are obviously against being in the EU, prove we will be better out of it
So you are obviously against being in the EU, prove we will be better out of it
As for my position on whether we should vote to leave (or stay), I'm not at all under the illusion that getting out would be all milk and honey. I am firmly of the opinion though that there's more to life than mere material wealth, and some of those things can only be controlled with greater political autonomy.
22 February 2016, 06:39 PM
#134
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Oh get real, will you? Even Russia sells us gas, despite being a state that's not far off from being a declared military foe. Yes, you're right, anything is possible, but if we're going to have a halfway sensible debate about this, can we at least try and stick to what's actually remotely credible?
22 February 2016, 06:49 PM
#135
), the example I gave of Russia was as deliberately extreme as I could make it. I don't actually believe our relations with EU states would ever deteriorate to that level if we got out, and even if they did, that would only raise the question of whether it's a club we should really want to remain a member of to begin with. If they're that vindictive a bunch of old *****, we're best rid anyway.
22 February 2016, 06:52 PM
#136
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Leaving aside for a minute the fact that the poster who first hinted we might have to go begging elsewhere for our food and fuel is now denying that's what he meant (), the example I gave of Russia was as deliberately extreme as I could make it. I don't actually believe our relations with EU states would ever deteriorate to that level if we got out, and even if they did, that would only raise the question of whether it's a club we should really want to remain a member of to begin with. If they're that vindictive a bunch of old *****, we're best rid anyway.
), the example I gave of Russia was as deliberately extreme as I could make it. I don't actually believe our relations with EU states would ever deteriorate to that level if we got out, and even if they did, that would only raise the question of whether it's a club we should really want to remain a member of to begin with. If they're that vindictive a bunch of old *****, we're best rid anyway.
22 February 2016, 06:54 PM
#137
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Now show me where I said the EU would not trade (sell us) stuff
Really really simple - put up or shut up
22 February 2016, 07:24 PM
#140
Costs us £56 million a DAY to be in.
What do we get for that?
And who thought it would be a good idea to give the new ex-eastern european bloc states €billions to build new hi-tech factories, that promptly removed jobs from the previous members????
What do we get for that?
And who thought it would be a good idea to give the new ex-eastern european bloc states €billions to build new hi-tech factories, that promptly removed jobs from the previous members????
22 February 2016, 09:15 PM
#141
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22 February 2016, 10:53 PM
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22 February 2016, 11:00 PM
#144
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Jeez right back at you, Mr Dense-Head. The rest of the world's economy is many times larger even than the EU's, and our imports from there must consequently be many times less significant to the rest of the world than our exports to them, yet somehow we still manage to export double the amount outside of the EU than we do to the EU. Right now we already manage to do that, and not at some hypothetical date in the future when members of that non-existant club which comprises the rest of the world might or might not take exception to us choosing to cease being a (non-)member of it, and in reprisal take action that might negatively impact our ability to export to its (non-)members. At what point then are you finally going to stop parroting this completely meaningless and irrelevant statistic? (which I'll emphasize again, you couldn't even cite correctly to begin with!)
Doh, doh and doh some more, if you're still struggling to get that
Doh, doh and doh some more, if you're still struggling to get that
Well looks like you've well and truly joined Team Thicko then.
It's really not difficult concept (well for most).
Last edited by Martin2005; 22 February 2016 at 11:03 PM.
22 February 2016, 11:16 PM
#145
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I've still not read any decent reasons to stay in the EU. For the 'in's it's almost like a political case of 'battered person syndrome'. They're getting treated like ****, but they're afraid to leave, and look for the good points of the relationship. You guys need to man up and try and make a judgement without being scared of an element of the unknown.
Like I've said before though, the EU is likely to collapse even if we don't get off the sinking ship in the referendum. Financially it's in a pretty dire state - we currently need less government, not more. Just printing money and ramping up debt isn't going to work forever - you can only sustain the unsustainable for so long.
22 February 2016, 11:21 PM
#146
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He's not gone and joined 'team in' surely?!
I've still not read any decent reasons to stay in the EU. For the 'in's it's almost like a political case of 'battered person syndrome'. They're getting treated like ****, but they're afraid to leave, and look for the good points of the relationship. You guys need to man up and try and make a judgement without being scared of an element of the unknown.
Like I've said before though, the EU is likely to collapse even if we don't get off the sinking ship in the referendum. Financially it's in a pretty dire state - we currently need less government, not more. Just printing money and ramping up debt isn't going to work forever - you can only sustain the unsustainable for so long.
I've still not read any decent reasons to stay in the EU. For the 'in's it's almost like a political case of 'battered person syndrome'. They're getting treated like ****, but they're afraid to leave, and look for the good points of the relationship. You guys need to man up and try and make a judgement without being scared of an element of the unknown.
Like I've said before though, the EU is likely to collapse even if we don't get off the sinking ship in the referendum. Financially it's in a pretty dire state - we currently need less government, not more. Just printing money and ramping up debt isn't going to work forever - you can only sustain the unsustainable for so long.
I think it's a finely balanced argument, and anyone who has an absolutist position on this is talking out their backside.
The EU is not going to collapse, that's just BS. The Euro might, free movement to some extend might, but the EU isn't going anywhere.
We have higher levels of debt than most EU countries, and we're not in the Euro, and our indebtedness owes zero to our EU membership, so that's just another 'red-herring'
22 February 2016, 11:34 PM
#147
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I think it's a finely balanced argument, and anyone who has an absolutist position on this is talking out their backside.
The EU is not going to collapse, that's just BS. The Euro might, free movement to some extend might, but the EU isn't going anywhere.
We have higher levels of debt than most EU countries, and we're not in the Euro, and our indebtedness owes zero to our EU membership, so that's just another 'red-herring'
The EU is not going to collapse, that's just BS. The Euro might, free movement to some extend might, but the EU isn't going anywhere.
We have higher levels of debt than most EU countries, and we're not in the Euro, and our indebtedness owes zero to our EU membership, so that's just another 'red-herring'
The arrogance and contempt of those in Brussels is almost beyond belief, such that it makes worthwhile reform almost impossible. We are having 20% of our laws created by those who we did not democratically elect and clearly don't have the UK's best interest at heart. How can that be a good thing? You're willing to throw away 300 years of democratic government in the UK so easily?!
Also as expected I see the BBC is being as impartial as ever and spouting pre-Europe fodder constantly, but that wasn't unexpected really.
Last edited by Petem95; 22 February 2016 at 11:36 PM.
22 February 2016, 11:40 PM
#148
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The EU simply will not continue in it's current form, it's an absolute disaster financially and is on a totally unsustainable footing. Yes it's true that is the case for most Western countries now, but that's all the more reason why we need to scale back to having less government, and not more. Spending needs to come back down to sustainable levels, and you absolutely won't get that by throwing additional billions into the black hole of the EU.
The arrogance and contempt of those in Brussels is almost beyond belief, such that it makes worthwhile reform almost impossible. We are having 20% of our laws created by those who we did not democratically elect and clearly don't have the UK's best interest at heart. How can that be a good thing? You're willing to throw away 300 years of democratic government in the UK so easily?!
Also as expected I see the BBC is being as impartial as ever and spouting pre-Europe fodder constantly, but that wasn't unexpected really.
The arrogance and contempt of those in Brussels is almost beyond belief, such that it makes worthwhile reform almost impossible. We are having 20% of our laws created by those who we did not democratically elect and clearly don't have the UK's best interest at heart. How can that be a good thing? You're willing to throw away 300 years of democratic government in the UK so easily?!
Also as expected I see the BBC is being as impartial as ever and spouting pre-Europe fodder constantly, but that wasn't unexpected really.
Good to see you got your anti BBC rant in, pretty sure the Met Office are in on it too
I'm not sure that voting 'in' isn't throwing away 300 years of democracy really, I suspect that's just hyperbole.
BTW, I'm certainly no starry eyed fan of the EU, far from it, but on the balance of the argument, and at a time when the world needs closer cooperation between nations, I think that you need to have some real certainty before moving in the opposite direction.
Last edited by Martin2005; 23 February 2016 at 12:21 AM.
23 February 2016, 02:57 AM
#149
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23 February 2016, 07:56 AM
#150
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global warming can't be far off
People always ask the question "what do we get for our EU membership fees?"
but they never ever bother answering their own question
you may not think it whatever we get is worth it etc, you may not think it was value for money - but at least try and answer your own question
sure if you think we got absolutely zero from our membership then fine, but as you say that is just fantasy land
I mean what DID the Romans ever do for us!!!!