Looks like my neutral poll echoes the SN poll.

http://www.ranker.com/list/should-br...u-/matthewgill

I was speaking to my Brother's and his girlfriend last night who are both work for the Labour Party and they are both pretty resigned to the possibility of leaving the EU. They vehemently argued with me that there are 300m living within the EU though and not 508m for some reason.

 

What point are you trying to prove? I'd hazard a guess you could do a similar exercise on any given high street asking who the priminister was and get a similar result.

Neutral poll complete with Brexit branding and a question worded in favour of Brexit (people naturally tend to answer questions positively). Might be worth double checking what neutral means.

 

There are only two kinds of people who might try to dispute the fact that if you picked any random country in the EU, there would be dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of times as many of that country's citizens who could name their last five prime ministers as there would be who could name the last five heads of the EU. Which kind are you Neil?

 

Might help if you stated the two kinds of people if your going to insist i pick one

 

it is worth pointing out that up thread a point was made about unelected EU commissioners

the implication being that unelected i.e. appointed (by elected officials) is somehow a deeply alien concept - and an affront to democracy, not British

well we have unelected, appointees in our legislature - they are called the house of lords

so not quite so alien a concept

 

Doesn't make it right though. The House of Lords is in dire need of reform since the increasing appointments of more and more lords to point it's no longer big enough if everyone attended. It's a farce and that's putting it mildly.

 

Silly me, I thought it was so stupendously obvious that an explanation wouldn't be needed. Since you asked though, type 1, people who are either so deluded, misinformed or educationally sub-normal that they can't see what an utterly absurd proposition it is, or type 2, people who know damn well how utterly absurd it is, but for whatever reason have chosen to pretend that they don't.

 

The important difference also is that the Lords don't have executive power in our legislature, and can easily enough be overriden by the lower house if it so wishes. The same can't be said of the EU commission.

 

i wait with baited breath for pc martins answer on this fact
please try your best to justify the fiddling of $989 million martin
it makes our mp's look like small fry con men which they are of course

 

Yes because I'm all in favour of fraud


It's difficult to tell from your rambling incoherent post, what the fraud involved, and who did it.


So if you want me to respond properly give me some details

 

So I looked into this, and it got me thinking...


firstly why are you comparing this to MP expenses, this has nothing to do with the EU parliament - MEP haven't lined their pockets with that money. Are you incapable of making an argument without conflating?


Secondly the amount stated is 0.6% of the EU budget. Now fraud is a betrayal no matter how small a percentage it is, but let's get it into perspective...


UK benefit fraud is estimated at around £4bn a year (more than 8 times the number you posted for EU fraud), this of course pales into insignificance next to UK tax avoidance which is between £70-£100 BILLION a year (more than 100 times more than the EU 'fraud'), so if you're going to get all high and mighty, that might be a good place to start.


Finally whilst you're there, could you please explain your odd comment about migrants 'walking thousands of miles' to get to the UK?

 

'Type 1' - yes I wonder which way the majority of them will be voting

 

Finally whilst you're there, could you please explain your odd comment about migrants 'walking thousands of miles' to get to the UK?
well as they have no money (supposedly) how the hell else are they to get here,
oh wait i forgot on a speedboat at 8k a pop from france or in the back of a lorry if you are a poor migrant,
and with regards to the fiddling its only 0.6% is no excuse its still 989million,
and then they fine the uk 652million for not submitting the correct accounts you couldn't make it up

 

A must watch


and if you have the time this

 

Cameron on Jeremy Vine today said our experts have said we will be poorer “ you wouldn't build a house without experts” Vine retorted “Experts built the Titanic”

He did not address the immigration problem. Tried to turn all aspects back to the economy.

 

Not only the House of Lords! The whole of Whitehall is unelected bureaucrats! The MPs don't trouble themselves with the nitty gritty of writing the various laws and bills for the house of commons. The unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall write them, then the house of commons approves them or sends them back to Whitehall to rework them or rejects them completely.

Why should the EU operate any differently? The European Commission is exactly the same as Whitehall, they draft the bills then the European parliament of elected MEPs approves or rejects them. The commission itself has absolutely no authority to pass any bills.

Even the European Parliament has very restricted abilities and cannot force anything on member states which requires a change of legislation in the member states. For that, it needs to go to the Council of Europe, which is made up of the elected leaders of each member state and any one of them can veto any legislation.

Over the years, Farrage and the Euroskeptics have managed to build up this image of "Them & Us". There is no them and us! We are part of Europe and we have (thanks to our early entry into the EU) a dis-proportionally large say in the way that Europe is governed and has changed over the years. Nothing was forced on us because we could have vetoed everything! Our elected leaders accepted everything, often negotiating opt-outs or additional benefits such as the Rebate, no open borders in Schengen, opt-out on the Euro etc. We currently have the best deal of any EU member state, much to the envy of other EU member including the heavyweights of Germany and France! Also bear in mind, the rest of the EU let us have the opt-outs - they could have Vetoed us!

 

Perhaps as that is the real issue? If the economy tanks, doesn't matter whether you stop immigration or not. If the economy is healthy, we need immigrants, they will help drive it.

Leave is based up on fear of immigration, that's about it. I do think that Cameron should not avoid the issue though, ut he should state why it isn't the problem Leave seem to think it is.

 

The fact is, we already have a points based immigration system for non-EU migrants, yet there are still more non-EU migrants entering the UK than EU migrants! The leavers are all imagining some sort of English only Utopia post Brexit, but in reality, we'll still have just as many migrants, but more administration for the local authorities to deal with and quite probably the ratio of Muslim to Christian immigration will fall further in the favour of non-EU Muslim immigrants rather than Christian EU immigrants!

 

Immigrants are either sinking or swimming in the fantastic sea of the UK benefits, but to Cameron, this immigration issue is just the tip of the iceberg whereas the economy is the main body that needs to be saved from the melt down.



Yes, I was thinking exactly the same. Perhaps he secretly supports 'Leave' campaign but has to keep face to other EU countries, in order to keep sweet relationship with them. Or perhaps he has no solution to immigration issue. Perhaps he should write a column on Twitter with his solution if he's getting all flushed by these daunting face-to-face interviewers.

 

Cameron is getting a grilling from all interviews now. No one believes what he saying and you can just hear the tone. He has lost respect that you would usually give a prime minister.

I watched a clip from a very recent EU tv debate. There was a chap pleading the case for EU, the whole audience literally boo`ed him and cheered when the conservative EU sceptic responded. That is the first time I have seen such a crowd turn on the EU supporter.
There is a definite swing of opinion I see now

 

yes, I suspect you are right. Leave have been able to appeal to the fear of immigration better then Remain have been able to appeal to the fear of economics.

Xenophobia is more deep rooted than economic sensibility in the UK, sadly.

How the UK public may feel if it turns out that the economic argument is much more important after a Brexit, remains to be seen.

 

I didn't write this but I like its simplicity

 

It's mainly straw man arguments, mixed up with dodgy half truths, but you like it so fair enough

 

 

That is what I want, Sovereignty. All other points will be dealt with from being sovereign.

It is no hidden secret now that ever since the whole EU project was created more than 50 years ago , it was to create one state, one currency. If you want that vote remain

 

Our parliament IS SOVERIEGN - and that will not change. It's just another phoney argument

 

Not to me it isn't. When my government can be over ruled by another body then it is not Sovereign. This is what I am voting for, to return ultimate decision to my parliament

 

The ultimate decision does reside with the UK parliament. We're not prisoners ffs.


At any point OUR PARLIAMENT can vote to implement article 50 and leave the EU. That's 'ultimate sovereign' right there for you.


The powers our parliament have ceded to the EU, were/are the decision of our sovereign parliament, full of our elected representatives.


I know it's far more sexy to construct conspiracy theories, but you need to at least get the basics correct.

 

This is the problem with the leave campaign keeping it simple so that people can understand! Unfortunately, its not simple and not easy to understand and simplifying everything makes the leave argument more attractive, but the reality if very, VERY, different!

This statement isn't entirely false, but the simplification is extremely misleading!

We will not leave the WTO, but that is the worst case default scenario with very restricted trade agreements.

Leaving the EEA is dependent on what the government decides to do post Brexit as membership of the EEA would have to be re-negotiated as it is currently linked to our EU membership. Remaining in the EEA is the so called "Norwegian model" and means we would still pay to the EU, we still have to accept EU migration, but we no longer have a say in EU policy. i.e. if we remain in the EEA, then we might as well remain in the EU and have a say! If we leave the EEA, then we lose all the EU associated trade deals and are left with the default WTO deals!

True!

True, however if the economy collapses, we may well fall out of the G8 (We're currently #5), and as a non EU member our voice might not be so loud as it was as an EU member!

True - I'd hope this was obvious

Somewhat misleading and missing key information!

Interpol and Europol are really an extension of normal policing and enable catching criminals across boarders. They are no more involved in the fight against terrorism and intelligence gathering as the UK police force.

The intelligence sharing from a military point of view is a part of NATO and will remain post Brexit.

Intelligence sharing for non military, such as terrorism, pedophile rings and organised crime is a function of the Schengen Information System (SIS) which we will lose if we leave. It may be possible to keep SIS if we negotiate, however SIS is also coupled with the rest of the Schengen treaty which means open borders and freedom of movement for EU citizens and also financial contribution. Switzerland wanted to (and did) join SIS, but had to accept open borders and freedom of movement as part of the deal i.e. full Schengen!

True(ish)!

The stricter border controls are thanks to the UK's current opt-out on the Schengen agreement. If we negotiate to keep SIS (see above), then we may be forced to relax EU border controls as part of a new agreement, although I think it is most likely we would be allowed to keep current Schengen agreements i.e. access to SIS, freedom of movement for EU citizens and financial contribution.

Again, missing important information!

Entry into other EU countries will be largely dependent on any future agreements. If we accept Schengen, then as stated above, we will keep freedom of movement (for us and them!). If we reject Schengen, then there is no guarantee what Visa Free travel we will have. If we want visa free travel to the Schengen area, then we would also have to offer visa free travel to all Schengen members. If we wan't to control access to people from certain Schengen countries (e.g. Romania & Bulgaria), then we have to control access to all Schengen countries, which means we'll need a Visa to travel to France or Spain. The exception is Ireland, who we have a separate open boarder agreement with negotiated under the Schengen opt-out - Ireland is also not part of the Schengen open boarders agreement.

As for using non-EU queues at airports, you can already do this - you generally have EU only and All Passports (including EU)! The EU queues are a fast lane for EU citizens where you're not likely to be held up by people arriving from countries that take a long time to process at immigration.

False! There is absolutely no evidence of this and the general consensus is the opposite!

False!

The UK is a net recipient of EU medical and Science funding. We receive a lot more money than we put in! The UK is currently a world leader in scientific research and without the EU funding, this will be lost! There is absolutely no way that the UK can afford to contribute as much to science as is currently received from the EU. The leave campaign have been totally silent on this subject as they know its true. Non a single scientist as spoken out in support for the leave campaign, whilst all the leading figures including prof Stephen Hawking and prof Brian *** have spoken out in support of remain and warned of the devastation of UK scientific research post Brexit!

Very misleading due to simplification!

Thanks to the rebate negotiated by Margret Thatcher, the UK is a net receiver of money from the common agricultural policy. The rebate is also not technically paid to the EU, we just keep the money!

If we leave the EU, there will be less money for farmers. Also, many farmers are heavily dependent on migrant workers for picking & packing jobs. Also, much of the produce farming in the UK is heavily dependent on export to other EU countries. With the absence of any EU trade deals for agricultural produce, then it will become almost impossible to export.

Possibly only the UK fishing industry is likely to see any benefits from leaving the EU.

True. Although some misleading info!

This is a very important case that has often been misrepresented by the leave campaign.

It is not the EU Convention on Human Rights, it IS the European convention on Human Rights. It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU and leaving the EU will not mean leaving the European convention on human rights! The European court of human rights is in Strasbourg not Brussels!

Also the referendum is not about if we want a UK bill of rights! Voting leave will not mean that we make one. The reality is we have to remain part of the European convention on human rights, otherwise we would likely suffer sanctions from the UN and WTO.

True - although replace WILL with Might

It would be illegal for the UK to expel any EU citizens who are already resident in the UK.

A points based system is already in place for non-EU citizens, although it currently seems to have no effect in controlling immigration as the requirement for immigrants to come to the UK is currently so high.

The net result, is that post Brexit, immigration figures are unlikely to change. If you're voting leave to stop immigration, you're wasting your time, its not going to happen! However saying that, if the economy suffers because of Brexit, then the demand for immigrant labour may reduce and therefore immigration will reduce, although probably still remain higher than the current EU migration figures.

Probably true!

In which case, you have to wonder what the point of leaving is, if we still can't control immigration? As this seems to be the only argument the leavers are really interested in!

False!

You may not be voting for this, but all international companies with manufacturing in the UK will evaluate the advantages and disadvantages post Brexit and many will move their manufacturing to other EU countries.

Much will depend on the post Brexit agreements. For example, if we remain in the EEA, then few businesses will move, however if we remain in the EEA, then we're better off remaining in the EU!

I don't know about the Ford/Turkey agreement, but you can use this as an example of just how little international companies are loyal to the local workforce. Their decision to move will be purely financial and won't think twice about the people they hurt. Of course, if we're outside the EU/EEA, then we could pay state aid to these companies to convince them to stay, but there goes all the extra money you wanted to blow on the NHS!

We are still a sovereign state in the EU! The fact that we can leave the EU without their permission is proof of this!

False!

The UK MEP are elected by you! The Council of Europe is represented by the UK government elected by you and has a veto on all decisions. The European commission is appointed by and answerable to the EU parliament and anyway has not actual power - this is identical to Whitehall!

There is a pro-Remain majority in the House of Commons of 454 MPs to 147.
Don't listen to the huge minority of our elected leaders, nearly all of whom are Conservative. Boris Johnson and Micheal Gove are only interested in their own political gains! Conservatives are renowned for supporting big business the rich and wealthy who are likely to be the big winners from Brexit. The entire liberal and social supporting parties, who put the general public before big business are backing remain because its better for you! Even half of the conservatives support them on this!

Think about the future, and your family's future. - VOTE REMAIN!

 

I respect your position, I have made my mind up thank you.