Scripture vs. the facts.
11 February 2016, 08:20 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
the main problem for me is ultimately religions answer to something like
why does he make all antibiotics obsolete through bacterial evolution?, or
why does he make a parasite that's sole means of evolving in to hatch and egg in a human eye?, or
why did he take the life, in a car crash, of my sons choir master (an up and coming theological star in the C of E)?
the answers is essentially - Gods works in mysterious ways - who knows his final design, and actually even worse we can never know etc etc
unfortunately this is simply inconsistent with science and scientific discovery - at a fundamental level
science seeks to answer the "mysterious ways" - it relentlessly pushes back gaps in our knowledge
it never pretends to have all the answers, but on the flip side "because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing"
we know a lot - and our knowledge is getting better all the time
why does he make all antibiotics obsolete through bacterial evolution?, or
why does he make a parasite that's sole means of evolving in to hatch and egg in a human eye?, or
why did he take the life, in a car crash, of my sons choir master (an up and coming theological star in the C of E)?
the answers is essentially - Gods works in mysterious ways - who knows his final design, and actually even worse we can never know etc etc
unfortunately this is simply inconsistent with science and scientific discovery - at a fundamental level
science seeks to answer the "mysterious ways" - it relentlessly pushes back gaps in our knowledge
it never pretends to have all the answers, but on the flip side "because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing"
we know a lot - and our knowledge is getting better all the time
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 11 February 2016 at 08:21 PM.
12 February 2016, 08:47 AM
#32
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not really sure what that article is trying to achieve (well, I probably do, but it just doesn't make sense at all).
For example.....
Now, in what way is that consistent with what we know about evolution? Not even tenuously, does that come close to what evolution is.
To claim that God is 'doing' evolution and that science is simply uncovering his 'work' is so out of kilter with what is in the bible beggars belief.
For example.....
For example, I found particularly instructive the account of God making man from the dust of the earth, a picture consistent with evolution
To claim that God is 'doing' evolution and that science is simply uncovering his 'work' is so out of kilter with what is in the bible beggars belief.
And
God actually uses events that we observers experience as “chance” to bring about His purposeful end.
12 February 2016, 08:59 AM
#33
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the main problem for me is ultimately religions answer to something like
why does he make all antibiotics obsolete through bacterial evolution?, or
why does he make a parasite that's sole means of evolving in to hatch and egg in a human eye?, or
why did he take the life, in a car crash, of my sons choir master (an up and coming theological star in the C of E)?
the answers is essentially - Gods works in mysterious ways - who knows his final design, and actually even worse we can never know etc etc
unfortunately this is simply inconsistent with science and scientific discovery - at a fundamental level
science seeks to answer the "mysterious ways" - it relentlessly pushes back gaps in our knowledge
it never pretends to have all the answers, but on the flip side "because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing"
we know a lot - and our knowledge is getting better all the time
why does he make all antibiotics obsolete through bacterial evolution?, or
why does he make a parasite that's sole means of evolving in to hatch and egg in a human eye?, or
why did he take the life, in a car crash, of my sons choir master (an up and coming theological star in the C of E)?
the answers is essentially - Gods works in mysterious ways - who knows his final design, and actually even worse we can never know etc etc
unfortunately this is simply inconsistent with science and scientific discovery - at a fundamental level
science seeks to answer the "mysterious ways" - it relentlessly pushes back gaps in our knowledge
it never pretends to have all the answers, but on the flip side "because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing"
we know a lot - and our knowledge is getting better all the time
http://biologos.org/resources/videos/the-fall
12 February 2016, 10:41 AM
#36
Scooby Regular
The answer to the question "why do bad things happen" (and for the third time on this thread) is owing to the Fall.
http://biologos.org/resources/videos/the-fall
http://biologos.org/resources/videos/the-fall
but we have accepted that faith is not built on evidence anyway
so it is a pointless debate
12 February 2016, 10:47 AM
#37
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...l#post11794105
The altruism thread:
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-altruism.html
The challenge unbelievers face is and always has been acknowledging their sin; they consider it offensive.
12 February 2016, 11:25 AM
#38
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.........yet people keep debating faith and fill pages and pages with making a point over something that they consider pointless. If there's an obsession with proving the point in faith, there's an obsession with disproving that there is any point in faith.
12 February 2016, 11:36 AM
#40
Scooby Regular
so that's what I mean by "pointless"
I have not really got a problem with "faith" per se (it is probably all part of what makes us human and indeed helped us evolve into humans)
it is just when people confuse it with "science and facts"
jtaylor is obviously conflicted in this, but the irony is that it ALWAYS comes back to evidence-less faith as the central "rock" on which everything is then built
it is the antitheses of science, science has no preconceived "rocks" on which things are hung - it starts with no preconceptions
Religion / Faith starts with an almighty large one - that's why the are fundamentally different
12 February 2016, 11:54 AM
#41
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12 February 2016, 11:55 AM
#42
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I countered thus:
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...l#post11794105
The altruism thread:
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-altruism.html
The challenge unbelievers face is and always has been acknowledging their sin; they consider it offensive.
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...l#post11794105
The altruism thread:
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-altruism.html
The challenge unbelievers face is and always has been acknowledging their sin; they consider it offensive.
Also, his was the son of God, in fact he was God depending on your viewpoint, he couldn't die. It's not like all the other poor martyrs who really did die.
Even if you take the view that they gained eternal life through their martyrdom, they wouldn't have known that. He knew all he had was a bit of pain, then he was living it up in heaven.
I don't have a problem considering my sin, because I have none. Or rather, I had none
Last edited by Geezer; 12 February 2016 at 11:56 AM.
12 February 2016, 03:36 PM
#43
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why do you see the cruxifiction as altruistic? Sure, he (according to the story, anyway) gave up his life. But, so have lots of people, yet you seem to discount their altruism. You could also say that by giving his life, he strengthened his position, as it would attract more followers to the cause.
Also, his was the son of God, in fact he was God depending on your viewpoint, he couldn't die. It's not like all the other poor martyrs who really did die.
Even if you take the view that they gained eternal life through their martyrdom, they wouldn't have known that. He knew all he had was a bit of pain, then he was living it up in heaven.
I don't have a problem considering my sin, because I have none. Or rather, I had none
Also, his was the son of God, in fact he was God depending on your viewpoint, he couldn't die. It's not like all the other poor martyrs who really did die.
Even if you take the view that they gained eternal life through their martyrdom, they wouldn't have known that. He knew all he had was a bit of pain, then he was living it up in heaven.
I don't have a problem considering my sin, because I have none. Or rather, I had none
13 February 2016, 02:34 PM
#44
Scooby Regular
The church has Been lost for a long time,and its true.A house divided against itself can not stand,It can be shaken.And God will Shake everything that can be shaken.Jesus is just as thorough saviour as he is a Judge.God appointed Jesus to be our saviour and Judge.People seem to forget Jesus is also here to Judge.why do things happen that we don't always want to,because we were all given free will.And Jesus does not interfere with people's choices.Love is to give free will and choice even if that means doing wrong.But ultimately each and every one of us will be judged.
13 February 2016, 04:39 PM
#46
Scooby Regular
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That means you and everyone of us.Those who have not strayed to far from the line of Jesus,who believe,been reasonably good in life,and have faith will be saved.And those who don't believe and deny Jesus in their lives and before men,who have been evil don't ask for forgiveness,don't have faith or not repent will be left behind and you will also be denied before his father in heaven
just as you also denied Jesus.
Judge and saviour
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That means you and everyone of us.Those who have not strayed to far from the line of Jesus,who believe,been reasonably good in life,and have faith will be saved.And those who don't believe and deny Jesus in their lives and before men,who have been evil don't ask for forgiveness,don't have faith or not repent will be left behind and you will also be denied before his father in heaven
just as you also denied Jesus.
Judge and saviour
Last edited by DYK; 13 February 2016 at 04:40 PM.
13 February 2016, 05:02 PM
#47
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That means you and everyone of us.Those who have not strayed to far from the line of Jesus,who believe,been reasonably good in life,and have faith will be saved.And those who don't believe and deny Jesus in their lives and before men,who have been evil don't ask for forgiveness,don't have faith or not repent will be left behind and you will also be denied before his father in heaven
just as you also denied Jesus.
Judge and saviour
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That means you and everyone of us.Those who have not strayed to far from the line of Jesus,who believe,been reasonably good in life,and have faith will be saved.And those who don't believe and deny Jesus in their lives and before men,who have been evil don't ask for forgiveness,don't have faith or not repent will be left behind and you will also be denied before his father in heaven
just as you also denied Jesus.
Judge and saviour
What utter tosh. It's like a car manufacturer demanding love and devotion from the cars he builds. And it's straight to the scrapyard for those spawn of Satan vehicles that lose faith and break down. If God exists he must shake his head in disbelief, and wonder how he created such a bunch of deluded fools. We should anticipate a mass extinction meteorite arriving sometime soon!
13 February 2016, 05:37 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
What utter tosh. It's like a car manufacturer demanding love and devotion from the cars he builds. And it's straight to the scrapyard for those spawn of Satan vehicles that lose faith and break down. If God exists he must shake his head in disbelief, and wonder how he created such a bunch of deluded fools. We should anticipate a mass extinction meteorite arriving sometime soon!
13 February 2016, 06:37 PM
#49
Those that have been evil in life Jesus will save if you ask forgiveness.Its those who don't have faith and don't ask for forgiveness that will be denied.yea you're right it is to the scrapheap.But he leaves the choice up to each person to decide..Rules of life was set in place,and the world has strayed far from the path line of Jesus,there are many unbelievers and evil in the world ,and evil is trying to bring down the good people left in the world,Satan also has a plan.but it's your free will and choice to decide.
13 February 2016, 06:39 PM
#50
Those that have been evil in life Jesus will save if you ask forgiveness.Its those who don't have faith and don't ask for forgiveness that will be denied.yea you're right it is to the scrapheap.But he leaves the choice up to each person to decide..Rules of life was set in place,and the world has strayed far from the path line of Jesus,there are many unbelievers and evil in the world ,and evil is trying to bring down the good people left in the world,Satan also has a plan.but it's your free will and choice to decide.
Do you honestly believe this nonsense? How were you brainwashed into thinking that there's some wonderland to which only those who live a life of misery and self denial will be granted access? When you experience dreamless sleep you sink into nothingness and cease to exist until you suddenly wake up. That's what death is, except you don't wake up. No sense of loss, no Jesus giving you a hard time, just nothing. Enjoy what you've got while you've got it.
13 February 2016, 06:51 PM
#51
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you honestly believe this nonsense? How were you brainwashed into thinking that there's some wonderland to which only those who live a life of misery and self denial will be granted access? When you experience dreamless sleep you sink into nothingness and cease to exist until you suddenly wake up. That's what death is, except you don't wake up. No sense of loss, no Jesus giving you a hard time, just nothing. Enjoy what you've got while you've got it.
13 February 2016, 07:05 PM
#52
What I really don't understand is that out of the last 2016 years,it has perhaps only been in the last 20 years (since the introduction of Sunday shopping,the internet,I-pads and mobile phones) that beliefs have disappeared.
Obviously downloading apps,going to Halfords and surfing Scoobynet more important to people now.lol
Obviously downloading apps,going to Halfords and surfing Scoobynet more important to people now.lol
13 February 2016, 07:08 PM
#53
What I really don't understand is that out of the last 2016 years,it has perhaps only been in the last 20 years (since the introduction of Sunday shopping,the internet,I-pads and mobile phones) that beliefs have disappeared.
Obviously downloading apps,going to Halfords and surfing Scoobynet more important to people now.lol
Obviously downloading apps,going to Halfords and surfing Scoobynet more important to people now.lol
Typical religious nuts trying to force it down other people's throats.
Do you even own an impreza J Taylor?
We seem to have a multitude of people here who have no interest in cars or imprezas, that are just here to talk bollocks about religion and apple....
13 February 2016, 07:11 PM
#54
...and when "did" you become a Christian Mr Taylor?
I was baptised as a Christian when I was a baby, however I have free will and believe only what is real. I don't believe in imaginary friends or beings. The bible and koran were not written by a god, they were written by men back in primitive times. Civilisation has progressed considerably since then, so why do we still have this nonsense. Religion has caused many otherwise good people to do evil things in the name of religion.
There have been many different religions in the world. They each believe theirs is the only true religion. They can't all be right, therefore by definition they are all wrong.
I was baptised as a Christian when I was a baby, however I have free will and believe only what is real. I don't believe in imaginary friends or beings. The bible and koran were not written by a god, they were written by men back in primitive times. Civilisation has progressed considerably since then, so why do we still have this nonsense. Religion has caused many otherwise good people to do evil things in the name of religion.
There have been many different religions in the world. They each believe theirs is the only true religion. They can't all be right, therefore by definition they are all wrong.
13 February 2016, 07:21 PM
#55
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't own an Impreza.
13 February 2016, 07:22 PM
#57
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Those that have been evil in life Jesus will save if you ask forgiveness.Its those who don't have faith and don't ask for forgiveness that will be denied.yea you're right it is to the scrapheap.But he leaves the choice up to each person to decide..Rules of life was set in place,and the world has strayed far from the path line of Jesus,there are many unbelievers and evil in the world ,and evil is trying to bring down the good people left in the world,Satan also has a plan.but it's your free will and choice to decide.
So Jimmy Saville asks for forgiveness and goes to heaven, someone who dedicates their life to helping others but denies Jesus spends an eternity in hell, having red hot pokers shoved up his ***. Makes perfect sense.
Who the **** is Jesus, AL Capone?
Last edited by Geezer; 13 February 2016 at 07:29 PM.
13 February 2016, 07:26 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
Jesus said if I tell you about earthly things and you don't believe me,then how can I tell you about heavenly things..Satan has a kingdom also,and his work is very much active in people's lives.Make no mistakes about it,this is a war,it's a war on Earth in the physical as well as in the spiritual.until the time Jesus returns and takes his elect and puts an end to it all.One thing about Jesus he is not some sweet fulffy bunny.He will return and bring judgement on all of us.
13 February 2016, 07:27 PM
#59
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jesus suffered searing, almost indescribable pain; picture the full wrath of God, His righteous anger poured out and placed on one man: His only Son. God's Son bore the punishment for the sin of all mankind so that we might be made at one with His Father and Their creation. He did this whilst we spat at Him and mocked Him and poured scorn on Him and all the Lord said was "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". Christ was and is altruism personified, selflessness incarnate. I pray that you'll one day recognise the perfect sacrifice made by the Lamb and that you'll come to know the joy of forgiveness and the hope of His kingdom.
Yet all the people who were tortured by the ***** and didn't betray the resistance or their country are not altruistic?
James, you were one of the most interesting and intelligent posters to have graced Scoobynet, but you really have lost your way. However, as long as you are happy, I wish you all the best.
13 February 2016, 07:27 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and when "did" you become a Christian Mr Taylor?
I was baptised as a Christian when I was a baby, however I have free will and believe only what is real. I don't believe in imaginary friends or beings. The bible and koran were not written by a god, they were written by men back in primitive times. Civilisation has progressed considerably since then, so why do we still have this nonsense. Religion has caused many otherwise good people to do evil things in the name of religion.
There have been many different religions in the world. They each believe theirs is the only true religion. They can't all be right, therefore by definition they are all wrong.
I was baptised as a Christian when I was a baby, however I have free will and believe only what is real. I don't believe in imaginary friends or beings. The bible and koran were not written by a god, they were written by men back in primitive times. Civilisation has progressed considerably since then, so why do we still have this nonsense. Religion has caused many otherwise good people to do evil things in the name of religion.
There have been many different religions in the world. They each believe theirs is the only true religion. They can't all be right, therefore by definition they are all wrong.
