Scripture vs. the facts.
08 February 2016, 03:07 PM
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08 February 2016, 03:28 PM
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"We believe that God created the universe, the earth, and all life over billions of years. God continues to sustain the existence and functioning of the natural world, and the cosmos continues to declare the glory of God. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Deism that claim the universe is self-sustaining, that God is no longer active in the natural world, or that God is not active in human history."
that's climate change sorted then!!
phew I thought all those 1000 of climate scientists where really onto something
turns out its Gods hand on the temperature ****
that's climate change sorted then!!
phew I thought all those 1000 of climate scientists where really onto something
turns out its Gods hand on the temperature ****
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 08 February 2016 at 06:23 PM.
08 February 2016, 04:04 PM
#5
I could do with a bit of God :-(
Said a few prayers just lately :-(
Said a few prayers just lately :-(
08 February 2016, 04:14 PM
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08 February 2016, 05:38 PM
#8
God continues to sustain the existence and functioning of the natural world,
Cancer? Parkinsons? Dementia? Infant sudden death syndrome?
Wars? Murders? Catastophes? Famine? Plague? Thirst? Over population?
I want nothing to do with that sort of God, thankyou, his/her control seems very wayward.
08 February 2016, 05:46 PM
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As it happens there is much in the Old Testament about the end game with the Middle East falling apart and leading to an invasion into Egypt and Libya through Israel with Jerusalem being a focal point.
The "King of the North" can be construed as Russia opposing the "King of the South", Saudi Arabia.
Material in Daniel, Zechariah and Ezekiel.
David
The "King of the North" can be construed as Russia opposing the "King of the South", Saudi Arabia.
Material in Daniel, Zechariah and Ezekiel.
David
08 February 2016, 06:10 PM
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08 February 2016, 06:31 PM
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"We believe that God created the universe, the earth, and all life over billions of years. God continues to sustain the existence and functioning of the natural world, and the cosmos continues to declare the glory of God. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Deism that claim the universe is self-sustaining, that God is no longer active in the natural world, or that God is not active in human history."
that's climate change sorted then!!
phew I though all those 1000 of climate scientists where really onto something
turns out its Gods hand on the temperature ****
that's climate change sorted then!!
phew I though all those 1000 of climate scientists where really onto something
turns out its Gods hand on the temperature ****
So the premise is that because of man's evil, God's creation (as I and the author of the piece in the link understand Him and it) is being, perhaps irreversibly, damaged. This poses myriad further questions, but I think the central one is that which theologians and philosophers refer to as 'the problem of evil': why does an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and loving God allow bad things to happen? I'll offer explanations from my Christian vantage point. A) I don't always know, but I trust in the Lord and His sovereignty and as such I can have confidence that He's in control. B) The Fall. Whilst I'm not a "literalist" (although I do believe the story contains literal truth) I accept that man and nature has been corrupted and cursed owing to our disobedience and the disobedience of our common ancestors.
So why doesn't God intervene? A) We've been granted free will. B) He did when He sent His only Son to earth to die on the cross and atone for our sins.
What happens next? see Revelation 21.
Last edited by JTaylor; 08 February 2016 at 08:58 PM.
08 February 2016, 07:18 PM
#15
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point b, is interesting, I simply don't buy that, I have held my children from the moment of birth, they did not contain evil, they were not inherently sinful
indeed this concept that we should somehow feel "guilty" is a cop out
I remember being told at a lecture on "teenagers and how to live them" that we as parents probably feel guilty (presumably at being divorced, single, absent constant arguing, tensions etc etc) and this then affects how we interact with our teenagers
i put my hand up and said (in a packed hall lol)
"sorry but I don't feel guilty at all, my wife and I try and give our children the best environment to grow up in we possibly can - our house is full of love, fun and joy, my wife and i NEVER argue and we both love each other more and more and have done so for the last 34 years - moreover our children have all the opportunities we can possibly give them "
the lecturer seemed quite shocked, so no I don't feel guilty, feeling guilty is for people who have something to feel guilty about
what I did find interesting was reading the personal accounts of people who have gone through a "volte-face"
who have changed their mind - 180 degs (well not quite), by rejecting young earth creationism because it simply did not fit the evidence
their final position in my view is a fudge - but there you go, Rome was not built in a day
admitting you have been wrong is important - accepting a previous position you once held is simply not defensible is actually quite cathartic for the soul
I had a position on organ donation (that I got from my mother, who had very strong views) that I now accept is/was totally wrong
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 08 February 2016 at 07:23 PM.
08 February 2016, 08:09 PM
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point a, can be dismissed out of hand - as Hitchens did with his famous "assertion" quote
point b, is interesting, I simply don't buy that, I have held my children from the moment of birth, they did not contain evil, they were not inherently sinful
indeed this concept that we should somehow feel "guilty" is a cop out
I remember being told at a lecture on "teenagers and how to live them" that we as parents probably feel guilty (presumably at being divorced, single, absent constant arguing, tensions etc etc) and this then affects how we interact with our teenagers
i put my hand up and said (in a packed hall lol)
"sorry but I don't feel guilty at all, my wife and I try and give our children the best environment to grow up in we possibly can - our house is full of love, fun and joy, my wife and i NEVER argue and we both love each other more and more and have done so for the last 34 years - moreover our children have all the opportunities we can possibly give them "
the lecturer seemed quite shocked, so no I don't feel guilty, feeling guilty is for people who have something to feel guilty about
what I did find interesting was reading the personal accounts of people who have gone through a "volte-face"
who have changed their mind - 180 degs (well not quite), by rejecting young earth creationism because it simply did not fit the evidence
their final position in my view is a fudge - but there you go, Rome was not built in a day
admitting you have been wrong is important - accepting a previous position you once held is simply not defensible is actually quite cathartic for the soul
I had a position on organ donation (that I got from my mother, who had very strong views) that I now accept is/was totally wrong
point b, is interesting, I simply don't buy that, I have held my children from the moment of birth, they did not contain evil, they were not inherently sinful
indeed this concept that we should somehow feel "guilty" is a cop out
I remember being told at a lecture on "teenagers and how to live them" that we as parents probably feel guilty (presumably at being divorced, single, absent constant arguing, tensions etc etc) and this then affects how we interact with our teenagers
i put my hand up and said (in a packed hall lol)
"sorry but I don't feel guilty at all, my wife and I try and give our children the best environment to grow up in we possibly can - our house is full of love, fun and joy, my wife and i NEVER argue and we both love each other more and more and have done so for the last 34 years - moreover our children have all the opportunities we can possibly give them "
the lecturer seemed quite shocked, so no I don't feel guilty, feeling guilty is for people who have something to feel guilty about
what I did find interesting was reading the personal accounts of people who have gone through a "volte-face"
who have changed their mind - 180 degs (well not quite), by rejecting young earth creationism because it simply did not fit the evidence
their final position in my view is a fudge - but there you go, Rome was not built in a day
admitting you have been wrong is important - accepting a previous position you once held is simply not defensible is actually quite cathartic for the soul
I had a position on organ donation (that I got from my mother, who had very strong views) that I now accept is/was totally wrong
Underneath the photo he says "though it's been said many times, many ways... being a dad is a transcendent joy." I imagine it would be hard for Stephen (with whom I am FB friends) to describe his boy as sinful. Theologically, the doctrine of original sin was countered by Pelagious who said that man was not inherently sinful and that (the archetype) Adam was merely a bad example. I side with Augustine and the reason is that when I meditated for some time on the nature of altruism I was unable to think of a solitary incident of the act as committed by a human, only that which Christ carried out at Calvary. I'm deeply selfish and only do good because of the grace of God.
Last edited by JTaylor; 08 February 2016 at 08:12 PM.
10 February 2016, 12:27 PM
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Dr. Ken Pargament says this: “When it comes to facilitating mental health, empirical data demonstrates that religious people have more positive emotion, more meaning in life, more life satisfaction, cope better with trauma, are more physically healthy, are more altruistic and socially connected, and are not diagnosed with mental illness more than other people.”
Additionally, science shows that human beings are hard-wired for faith, we have evolved to believe, so it is the High Priest of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, and his followers who suffer from a tragic affliction: a deficiency of faith.
I was once a Saul of Tarsus, too, but the Lord in His mercy saved a wretch like me. I'll pray for you, Warren.
10 February 2016, 01:25 PM
#20
First, I trust this is not meant pejoratively. If your intention was to attack my worldview by insult then you also attack people struggling with mental illness. Assuming you intend a plain reading and your point is borne out of concern for my health, then I applaud and welcome your concern, but feel compelled to point out some material truths that you appear to have overlooked.
Dr. Ken Pargament says this: “When it comes to facilitating mental health, empirical data demonstrates that religious people have more positive emotion, more meaning in life, more life satisfaction, cope better with trauma, are more physically healthy, are more altruistic and socially connected, and are not diagnosed with mental illness more than other people.”
Additionally, science shows that human beings are hard-wired for faith, we have evolved to believe, so it is the High Priest of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, and his followers who suffer from a tragic affliction: a deficiency of faith.
I was once a Saul of Tarsus, too, but the Lord in His mercy saved a wretch like me. I'll pray for you, Warren.
Dr. Ken Pargament says this: “When it comes to facilitating mental health, empirical data demonstrates that religious people have more positive emotion, more meaning in life, more life satisfaction, cope better with trauma, are more physically healthy, are more altruistic and socially connected, and are not diagnosed with mental illness more than other people.”
Additionally, science shows that human beings are hard-wired for faith, we have evolved to believe, so it is the High Priest of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, and his followers who suffer from a tragic affliction: a deficiency of faith.
I was once a Saul of Tarsus, too, but the Lord in His mercy saved a wretch like me. I'll pray for you, Warren.
All very interesting. But even the muslims occasionally put 'faith' in perspective. One of their apt sayings is: 'Trust in God but tether your camel'. This is the crunch of course. At what problem level do you sit back and wait for God to sort it out as opposed to taking personal responsibility for outcomes?
Assuming God exists (quite a big assumption) then with an entire universe to worry about how could He possibly be concerned with the problems of individual humans? Best keep that camel tied up.
10 February 2016, 02:10 PM
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All very interesting. But even the muslims occasionally put 'faith' in perspective. One of their apt sayings is: 'Trust in God but tether your camel'. This is the crunch of course. At what problem level do you sit back and wait for God to sort it out as opposed to taking personal responsibility for outcomes?
Assuming God exists (quite a big assumption) then with an entire universe to worry about how could He possibly be concerned with the problems of individual humans? Best keep that camel tied up.
Assuming God exists (quite a big assumption) then with an entire universe to worry about how could He possibly be concerned with the problems of individual humans? Best keep that camel tied up.
In the same chapter (Luke 12 v22-31) the Lord says: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."
So the Lord does indeed promise that He will provide so long as you seek His kingdom. The key word there is 'seek', which brings us nicely on to Matthew 7:7 which reads "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
We can see here that there is a relationship between the Creator and the created. We can trust in the Lord and trust that He will provide, but He also wants us to actively seek out that which we need.
Whilst I know the Lord will keep me today, I'll be sure to apply the handbrake when I park up later.
10 February 2016, 03:00 PM
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Yes, interesting points. From Scripture, Luke 12 v7, the Lord says "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered." This is the very essence of a personal relationship with the providential Jesus. He is not the absent landlord of deism nor is he the non-trinitarian god of Islam. Jesus was and is fully man and fully God and able to know every scintilla of our being.
In the same chapter (Luke 12 v22-31) the Lord says: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."
So the Lord does indeed promise that He will provide so long as you seek His kingdom. The key word there is 'seek', which brings us nicely on to Matthew 7:7 which reads "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
We can see here that there is a relationship between the Creator and the created. We can trust in the Lord and trust that He will provide, but He also wants us to actively seek out that which we need.
Whilst I know the Lord will keep me today, I'll be sure to apply the handbrake when I park up later.
In the same chapter (Luke 12 v22-31) the Lord says: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."
So the Lord does indeed promise that He will provide so long as you seek His kingdom. The key word there is 'seek', which brings us nicely on to Matthew 7:7 which reads "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
We can see here that there is a relationship between the Creator and the created. We can trust in the Lord and trust that He will provide, but He also wants us to actively seek out that which we need.
Whilst I know the Lord will keep me today, I'll be sure to apply the handbrake when I park up later.
BRIAN: …Consider the lilies… in the field…
ELSIE: Consider the lilies?
BRIAN: Uh, well, the birds, then.
EDDIE: What birds?
BRIAN: Any birds.
EDDIE: Why?
BRIAN: Well, have they got jobs?
ARTHUR: Who?
BRIAN: The birds.
EDDIE: Have the birds got jobs?!!
FRANK: What’s the matter with him?
ARTHUR: He says the birds are scrounging.
BRIAN: Oh, uhh, no, the point is the birds. They do all right. Don’t they?
FRANK: Well, good luck to ‘em.
EDDIE: Yeah. They’re very pretty.
BRIAN: Okay, and you’re much more important than they are, right? So, what are you worrying about? There you are. See?
EDDIE: I’m worrying about what you have got against birds.
BRIAN: I haven’t got anything against the birds. Consider the lilies.
ARTHUR: He’s having a go at the flowers now.
ELSIE: Consider the lilies?
BRIAN: Uh, well, the birds, then.
EDDIE: What birds?
BRIAN: Any birds.
EDDIE: Why?
BRIAN: Well, have they got jobs?
ARTHUR: Who?
BRIAN: The birds.
EDDIE: Have the birds got jobs?!!
FRANK: What’s the matter with him?
ARTHUR: He says the birds are scrounging.
BRIAN: Oh, uhh, no, the point is the birds. They do all right. Don’t they?
FRANK: Well, good luck to ‘em.
EDDIE: Yeah. They’re very pretty.
BRIAN: Okay, and you’re much more important than they are, right? So, what are you worrying about? There you are. See?
EDDIE: I’m worrying about what you have got against birds.
BRIAN: I haven’t got anything against the birds. Consider the lilies.
ARTHUR: He’s having a go at the flowers now.
10 February 2016, 04:10 PM
#24
Yes, interesting points. From Scripture, Luke 12 v7, the Lord says "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered." This is the very essence of a personal relationship with the providential Jesus. He is not the absent landlord of deism nor is he the non-trinitarian god of Islam. Jesus was and is fully man and fully God and able to know every scintilla of our being.
In the same chapter (Luke 12 v22-31) the Lord says: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."
So the Lord does indeed promise that He will provide so long as you seek His kingdom. The key word there is 'seek', which brings us nicely on to Matthew 7:7 which reads "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
We can see here that there is a relationship between the Creator and the created. We can trust in the Lord and trust that He will provide, but He also wants us to actively seek out that which we need.
Whilst I know the Lord will keep me today, I'll be sure to apply the handbrake when I park up later.
In the same chapter (Luke 12 v22-31) the Lord says: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."
So the Lord does indeed promise that He will provide so long as you seek His kingdom. The key word there is 'seek', which brings us nicely on to Matthew 7:7 which reads "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
We can see here that there is a relationship between the Creator and the created. We can trust in the Lord and trust that He will provide, but He also wants us to actively seek out that which we need.
Whilst I know the Lord will keep me today, I'll be sure to apply the handbrake when I park up later.
Hmm, these scriptures are all very fine when you live in the lap of luxury (by world standards) have a job and a full stomach. The world's starving millions might look askance at anyone preaching these 'truths' though. The scriptures seem to advocate indolence or apathy, because God will provide. But of course He never does, ever. The starving continue to starve, the suffering continue to suffer.
So we must help ourselves, strive to overcome obstacles and persevere with life in general. And even then we might hit the buffers hard.
Probably the most glib and amusing response I ever got from a man of the cloth, when I asked him why prayers are apparently never answered, was to claim that God always answers. But mostly he says no.
10 February 2016, 04:49 PM
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Hmm, these scriptures are all very fine when you live in the lap of luxury (by world standards) have a job and a full stomach. The world's starving millions might look askance at anyone preaching these 'truths' though. The scriptures seem to advocate indolence or apathy, because God will provide. But of course He never does, ever. The starving continue to starve, the suffering continue to suffer.
So we must help ourselves, strive to overcome obstacles and persevere with life in general. And even then we might hit the buffers hard.
Probably the most glib and amusing response I ever got from a man of the cloth, when I asked him why prayers are apparently never answered, was to claim that God always answers. But mostly he says no.
So we must help ourselves, strive to overcome obstacles and persevere with life in general. And even then we might hit the buffers hard.
Probably the most glib and amusing response I ever got from a man of the cloth, when I asked him why prayers are apparently never answered, was to claim that God always answers. But mostly he says no.
10 February 2016, 08:52 PM
#26
My questions were rhetorical so not enquiries at all. And how about you employing some original thoughts, not endless quotes from the long dead? The best legal minds couldn't successfully argue the existence of God in a court, especially if they had to rely for evidence on your quotes, which constantly contradict themselves. To my mind they are just 'camel tethering' rephrased.
10 February 2016, 09:18 PM
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My questions were rhetorical so not enquiries at all. And how about you employing some original thoughts, not endless quotes from the long dead? The best legal minds couldn't successfully argue the existence of God in a court, especially if they had to rely for evidence on your quotes, which constantly contradict themselves. To my mind they are just 'camel tethering' rephrased.
11 February 2016, 08:02 PM
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I'm not really sure what that article is trying to achieve (well, I probably do, but it just doesn't make sense at all).
For example.....
Now, in what way is that consistent with what we know about evolution? Not even tenuously, does that come close to what evolution is.
To claim that God is 'doing' evolution and that science is simply uncovering his 'work' is so out of kilter with what is in the bible beggars belief.
And
So is one of God's purposeful ends to make all antibiotics obsolete through bacterial evolution?
For example.....
For example, I found particularly instructive the account of God making man from the dust of the earth, a picture consistent with evolution
To claim that God is 'doing' evolution and that science is simply uncovering his 'work' is so out of kilter with what is in the bible beggars belief.
And
God actually uses events that we observers experience as “chance” to bring about His purposeful end.