Scripture vs. the facts.
20 February 2016, 01:42 PM
#361
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So long it's a sincere repentance and you turn to the Lord, yes. The gamble is, and it's high stakes, that none of us know when we'll be taken.
20 February 2016, 01:52 PM
#362
when your dying in your bed i suppose it would be sincere. but isnt that too easy? even hitchens said as he was dying of cancer "If I convert it’s because it’s better that a believer dies than an atheist does." why spend a lifetime praying, worshiping etc when you just have to repent in your final moments?
20 February 2016, 01:59 PM
#363
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when your dying in your bed i suppose it would be sincere. but isnt that too easy? even hitchens said as he was dying of cancer "If I convert it’s because it’s better that a believer dies than an atheist does." why spend a lifetime praying, worshiping etc when you just have to repent in your final moments?
20 February 2016, 02:10 PM
#364
ok but a lot of people do die in their hospital bed or in the old folks home. as the quote from hitchens illustrates the great thing about christianity is the ability to confess at the last opportunity and gain entry to the club. he himself is saying that it was "worth a punt" as he approached his last breath and thought in this world. nobody will ever know if he did or not as that is another beautiful thing about faith. you just have to believe, there,s no way to come back and let everyone know that you made it in.
20 February 2016, 02:12 PM
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39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43
20 February 2016, 02:14 PM
#366
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ok but a lot of people do die in their hospital bed or in the old folks home. as the quote from hitchens illustrates the great thing about christianity is the ability to confess at the last opportunity and gain entry to the club. he himself is saying that it was "worth a punt" as he approached his last breath and thought in this world. nobody will ever know if he did or not as that is another beautiful thing about faith. you just have to believe, there,s no way to come back and let everyone know that you made it in.
20 February 2016, 02:21 PM
#367
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Just in case you missed it, here's the last time we had the conversation about saving grace:
https://www.scoobynet.com/1026662-st...l#post11707821
https://www.scoobynet.com/1026662-st...l#post11707821
20 February 2016, 02:23 PM
#369
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Just to confirm that I met the guys from Open Doors for the second time yesterday and Hodgy's right, their primary function is missionary work, i.e. spreading the Gospel. I get that this is unpalatable to non-Christians, but we Christians believe we are bringing good news to people who desperately need it.
My pastor often says that one can't argue somebody in to faith and I agree with him. What Christians can do is act as watchmen and messengers. We are to have the courage of our convictions whether this means sticking one's neck out on Scoobynet or risking it by smuggling Bibles in to Mosul.
My pastor often says that one can't argue somebody in to faith and I agree with him. What Christians can do is act as watchmen and messengers. We are to have the courage of our convictions whether this means sticking one's neck out on Scoobynet or risking it by smuggling Bibles in to Mosul.
And you'd prioritise the ones with your faith when it comes to helping as well as develop / establish relationship bonds. You expect people to become Christian to be your soul mates. As you say yourself........
CSLewis said “…the door out of Hell is firmly locked, (but) by the devils themselves, on the inside", so by me wilfully living in sin I may well be condemning myself. I agonise over it. As I stated earlier in the thread I am praying that my partner will come to faith so that we might have a sincere Christian wedding. The Lord knows my intentions are good, so I hope that this is my 'get out card'.
Why is your love for your devout lover conditional over this marriage lark, James?
20 February 2016, 02:33 PM
#370
to appease his god who is angry over his sex outwith marriage:
Revelation 21:6-8 (ESV)
6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death
Revelation 21:6-8 (ESV)
6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death
20 February 2016, 02:37 PM
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20 February 2016, 02:39 PM
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to appease his god who is angry over his sex outwith marriage:
Revelation 21:6-8 (ESV)
6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death
Revelation 21:6-8 (ESV)
6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death
20 February 2016, 02:41 PM
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And you'd prioritise the ones with your faith when it comes to helping as well as develop / establish relationship bonds. You expect people to become Christian to be your soul mates. As you say yourself........
It seems so wrong that the person who has sincerely loved you and put up with you through your thick and thin has to accept your religious ideology. Why can't you just accept her as a loving human and marry her? God will be fine with it, believe me! God's fine with you living together loyally as it is, but I only suggest marriage because you keep calling yourself a hypocrite, sinner etc. for having sex outside marriage with your partner of twelve years.
Why is your love for your devout lover conditional over this marriage lark, James?
It seems so wrong that the person who has sincerely loved you and put up with you through your thick and thin has to accept your religious ideology. Why can't you just accept her as a loving human and marry her? God will be fine with it, believe me! God's fine with you living together loyally as it is, but I only suggest marriage because you keep calling yourself a hypocrite, sinner etc. for having sex outside marriage with your partner of twelve years.
Why is your love for your devout lover conditional over this marriage lark, James?
20 February 2016, 02:42 PM
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20 February 2016, 02:52 PM
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20 February 2016, 02:55 PM
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I've been quite convicted during this thread, so much so that I asked for some counsel from my pastor regarding my living in sin. Providentially, he's just this very minute replied:
Jimmy,
Ok here's a brief reply off the top of my head,forgive and grammatical errors, I've rushed.
The charges against you seem to be coming from *(elsewhere but mainly) 1 Corinthians*Ch.6v9-20 which particularly zones in on God's hatred of sexual immortality, and I think you quoted it earlier.*
First, it's important for the accuser to note that one*cannot disqualify a Christian if they have remaining sin in their lives after conversion. 1 John 1v 8 says*If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Your accuser may say that*there's a difference between falling into sin and*willfully*sinning and you are doing the latter, but in once sense*every sin*is*a*willful*choice and nobody falls into it.*Would he question the salvation of a gossip or a greedy man? Probably not, so why*does he think*your particular sin disqualifies you? What about the million other sins in your life? He probably*chooses this one*because*it's public, and in doing so he has created*a new doctrine that pits public sin against private sin and he concludes that public sin disqualifies you while private ones don't. This is exceptionally difficult to find in scripture. The fact is, a person's salvation hinges on Christ dealing with our entire general state first. Humans are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinners. Christ first washes and*renews*a human's entire disposition not their individual sins.*
Second, that brings us to Paul's letter to Corinth. Corinth*was a church that had*prostitutes,*pedophiles, adulterers,*idolaters,*gossips, greedy and everything else in it. But Paul still calls them a real church and 'thanks God for them' (1 Cor1v1-4). He can do this NOT because they don't sin anymore but because they are 'sanctified' (v2) in their entire disposition. Then what follows is Paul's instructions to them that they ought to fight the sins still in their lives. He expects to see fruit over time. Your accuser doesn't seem to grasp that fighting sin*isn't always*instantaneous, it's a process. Some sins may stop right away, others might take 2 or 3 pastoral letters (in the*case of the Corinthian church) to sort out. And lets not forget that some sins will remain in us until we die (1 John 1v8). In ch. 6 Paul lists a lot of sins (v9-10) and then says 'But such were some of you' (v11). Is Paul saying that*they*no longer commit those sins? No, otherwise he wouldnt be writing the rebuke in the first place! He*is saying to them that once upon a time their entire*disposition*was towards those things,*but since being*"washed" and "sanctified" entirely "such WERE some of you" and now it's time to change!*
Third, I think it's therefore safe to conclude the following: 1. A Christian is not sinless and each and every sin is a willful choice. If being a Christian means we don't*have sin in our lives then nobody has ever been or will be a Christian. 2. Sometimes fighting sin takes time and each situation varies. Just read 1 Cor. 7 to see the complex nature with which Paul deals with people who have become Christians and their partners haven't. He tells them to stay with them in once instance and says they can break up at another. This proves that there isn't always a cut and dry answer to every situation. What matters is that a believer desires and seeks to grow in holiness and produces fruit of the spirit. Therefore, if you were continually live in sexual immortality with Lizzie without ever making a change then your accuser*would be right to question your allegiance to Christ. However, what doesn't tot up (according to Paul's theology) is your accusers*assumption that this particular sin*must be tackled right away, cut and dry, instantaneous and in only one way or else you're a fraud.
Jimmy,
Ok here's a brief reply off the top of my head,forgive and grammatical errors, I've rushed.
The charges against you seem to be coming from *(elsewhere but mainly) 1 Corinthians*Ch.6v9-20 which particularly zones in on God's hatred of sexual immortality, and I think you quoted it earlier.*
First, it's important for the accuser to note that one*cannot disqualify a Christian if they have remaining sin in their lives after conversion. 1 John 1v 8 says*If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Your accuser may say that*there's a difference between falling into sin and*willfully*sinning and you are doing the latter, but in once sense*every sin*is*a*willful*choice and nobody falls into it.*Would he question the salvation of a gossip or a greedy man? Probably not, so why*does he think*your particular sin disqualifies you? What about the million other sins in your life? He probably*chooses this one*because*it's public, and in doing so he has created*a new doctrine that pits public sin against private sin and he concludes that public sin disqualifies you while private ones don't. This is exceptionally difficult to find in scripture. The fact is, a person's salvation hinges on Christ dealing with our entire general state first. Humans are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinners. Christ first washes and*renews*a human's entire disposition not their individual sins.*
Second, that brings us to Paul's letter to Corinth. Corinth*was a church that had*prostitutes,*pedophiles, adulterers,*idolaters,*gossips, greedy and everything else in it. But Paul still calls them a real church and 'thanks God for them' (1 Cor1v1-4). He can do this NOT because they don't sin anymore but because they are 'sanctified' (v2) in their entire disposition. Then what follows is Paul's instructions to them that they ought to fight the sins still in their lives. He expects to see fruit over time. Your accuser doesn't seem to grasp that fighting sin*isn't always*instantaneous, it's a process. Some sins may stop right away, others might take 2 or 3 pastoral letters (in the*case of the Corinthian church) to sort out. And lets not forget that some sins will remain in us until we die (1 John 1v8). In ch. 6 Paul lists a lot of sins (v9-10) and then says 'But such were some of you' (v11). Is Paul saying that*they*no longer commit those sins? No, otherwise he wouldnt be writing the rebuke in the first place! He*is saying to them that once upon a time their entire*disposition*was towards those things,*but since being*"washed" and "sanctified" entirely "such WERE some of you" and now it's time to change!*
Third, I think it's therefore safe to conclude the following: 1. A Christian is not sinless and each and every sin is a willful choice. If being a Christian means we don't*have sin in our lives then nobody has ever been or will be a Christian. 2. Sometimes fighting sin takes time and each situation varies. Just read 1 Cor. 7 to see the complex nature with which Paul deals with people who have become Christians and their partners haven't. He tells them to stay with them in once instance and says they can break up at another. This proves that there isn't always a cut and dry answer to every situation. What matters is that a believer desires and seeks to grow in holiness and produces fruit of the spirit. Therefore, if you were continually live in sexual immortality with Lizzie without ever making a change then your accuser*would be right to question your allegiance to Christ. However, what doesn't tot up (according to Paul's theology) is your accusers*assumption that this particular sin*must be tackled right away, cut and dry, instantaneous and in only one way or else you're a fraud.
20 February 2016, 03:05 PM
#379
what doesn't tot up (according to Paul's theology) is your accusers*assumption that this particular sin*must be tackled right away, cut and dry, instantaneous and in only one way or else you're a fraud.
im not the accuser, your god is. he is accusing you of living in sin and not following his path.
im not the accuser, your god is. he is accusing you of living in sin and not following his path.
20 February 2016, 03:10 PM
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what doesn't tot up (according to Paul's theology) is your accusers*assumption that this particular sin*must be tackled right away, cut and dry, instantaneous and in only one way or else you're a fraud.
im not the accuser, your god is. he is accusing you of living in sin and not following his path.
im not the accuser, your god is. he is accusing you of living in sin and not following his path.
20 February 2016, 03:11 PM
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20 February 2016, 03:12 PM
#384
Thessalonians 4:3,4,7 says, "God wants you to be holy and to stay away from sexual sins. He wants each of you to learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable ... God called us to be holy and does not want us to live in sin."
20 February 2016, 03:14 PM
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20 February 2016, 03:17 PM
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Yes, upon seeing above, I simply hear back under the written words that you would only marry your sincere, long term loving partner if she converts to your faith. As I say, it sounds very uncomfortable to my ears.
One of the failings of Christianity. Christianity that is made for humans to follow! Another failing is where a true Christian has to sell Christianity to others.
If I'm hearing wrong, I do apologise and please feel free to point me to the right post.
Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, or maybe, I'm understanding it right and that's the way Christianity is, in 'Take it or leave it' kind of way.
One of the failings of Christianity. Christianity that is made for humans to follow! Another failing is where a true Christian has to sell Christianity to others.
If I'm hearing wrong, I do apologise and please feel free to point me to the right post.
Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, or maybe, I'm understanding it right and that's the way Christianity is, in 'Take it or leave it' kind of way.
20 February 2016, 03:21 PM
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Yes, upon seeing above, I simply hear back under the written words that you would only marry your sincere, long term loving partner if she converts to your faith. As I say, it sounds very uncomfortable to my ears.
One of the failings of Christianity. Christianity that is made for humans to follow! Another failing is where a true Christian has to sell Christianity to others.
If I'm hearing wrong, I do apologise and please feel free to point me to the right post.
Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, or maybe, I'm understanding it right and that's the way Christianity is, in 'Take it or leave it' kind of way.
One of the failings of Christianity. Christianity that is made for humans to follow! Another failing is where a true Christian has to sell Christianity to others.
If I'm hearing wrong, I do apologise and please feel free to point me to the right post.
Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, or maybe, I'm understanding it right and that's the way Christianity is, in 'Take it or leave it' kind of way.