Never mind our EU contributions ....
30 September 2015, 08:53 PM
#31
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So you're 100% certain that if the same ancestors of the same former slaves of dozens of generations ago were still living in their ancestors' original homeland instead of the Caribbean, they'd be living a life of plenty, without war, disease, political oppression, etc etc? That's if they were living at all, of course, since there's absolutely no guarantee at all that their bloodline would have made it into the 21st Century (or even the 20th, or the 19th, for that matter).
Sometimes it's all too easy to confuse cynicism with basic common sense and realism.
Sometimes it's all too easy to confuse cynicism with basic common sense and realism.
Also explain "basic common sense"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 30 September 2015 at 09:12 PM.
01 October 2015, 07:11 AM
#33
So you're 100% certain that if the same ancestors of the same former slaves of dozens of generations ago were still living in their ancestors' original homeland instead of the Caribbean, they'd be living a life of plenty, without war, disease, political oppression, etc etc? That's if they were living at all, of course, since there's absolutely no guarantee at all that their bloodline would have made it into the 21st Century (or even the 20th, or the 19th, for that matter).
Sometimes it's all too easy to confuse cynicism with basic common sense and realism.
Sometimes it's all too easy to confuse cynicism with basic common sense and realism.
It's impossible to say what would have happened to them and no doubt some of them would have become ill and died otherwise they'd be over 200yrs old by now, which I think somewhat like your scenario require a little stretching of the imagination.
The way I see it is, the UK and others took these peoples ancestors forcibly from their homeland, regardless of how they were captured or by whom, as that is ultimately immaterial, much like any trade it relies on a customer, no customer and you go out of business.
Now we have an island (I'm only referring Jamaica) where it's inhabitants have for the most part been abandoned by the people that brought them there, where the vast majority DO live in seriously poor conditions not unlike how they lived 200yrs ago. Sure the tourist areas have nice roads running water etc,etc but step outside that zone and it's a totally different story, and to be fair the tourist industry is just another example / continuation of exploitation of the island and it's inhabitants, maybe you could use your imagination to get your head around that one.
Now I'm not saying that the UK should start handing £500k to each inhabitant of Jamaica but I do think they bare some responsibility for the state of affairs out there, how can they not.
01 October 2015, 07:38 AM
#34
Scooby Regular
01 October 2015, 07:55 AM
#35
I'd also like to add, it may well have started a very long time ago but that doesn't remove responsibility, it merely compounds it in my view because it just goes to show how long that responsibility has been dodged and swept under the carpet while large corporations have continued to exploit the island and the people left there in the form of tourism.
I wonder who sold or not as the case may be all the sea front property in places like Montego bay, Negril.
I wonder who sold or not as the case may be all the sea front property in places like Montego bay, Negril.
01 October 2015, 11:00 AM
#36
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Ditchy,
Why doesn't Jamaica have (widespread) sanitation? Why is 'tourism' exploiting the Island?
At what point do Jamaicans become responsible for their own environment/situation?
Yes - slavery was wrong, and undoubtedly has caused unnecessary suffering for many many people, BUT what is stopping Jamaica from improving its own lot now?
Saying they have been 'abandoned' by those who brought them there - approx 50 or 60 years ago the country was granted the independence that it wanted, should 'we' not have granted that?
Why doesn't Jamaica have (widespread) sanitation? Why is 'tourism' exploiting the Island?
At what point do Jamaicans become responsible for their own environment/situation?
Yes - slavery was wrong, and undoubtedly has caused unnecessary suffering for many many people, BUT what is stopping Jamaica from improving its own lot now?
Saying they have been 'abandoned' by those who brought them there - approx 50 or 60 years ago the country was granted the independence that it wanted, should 'we' not have granted that?
01 October 2015, 12:57 PM
#37
Well I'm with Hodgy in not quite getting your point and the reason for that is it's some sort of made up scenario that doesn't exist, what does however exist is an island called Jamaica where the ancestors of slaves still live in abject poverty through no fault of their own.
It's impossible to say what would have happened to them and no doubt some of them would have become ill and died otherwise they'd be over 200yrs old by now, which I think somewhat like your scenario require a little stretching of the imagination.
It's impossible to say what would have happened to them and no doubt some of them would have become ill and died otherwise they'd be over 200yrs old by now, which I think somewhat like your scenario require a little stretching of the imagination.
The way I see it is, the UK and others took these peoples ancestors forcibly from their homeland, regardless of how they were captured or by whom, as that is ultimately immaterial, much like any trade it relies on a customer, no customer and you go out of business.
Now we have an island (I'm only referring Jamaica) where it's inhabitants have for the most part been abandoned by the people that brought them there, where the vast majority DO live in seriously poor conditions not unlike how they lived 200yrs ago. Sure the tourist areas have nice roads running water etc,etc but step outside that zone and it's a totally different story, and to be fair the tourist industry is just another example / continuation of exploitation of the island and it's inhabitants, maybe you could use your imagination to get your head around that one.
Now I'm not saying that the UK should start handing £500k to each inhabitant of Jamaica but I do think they bare some responsibility for the state of affairs out there, how can they not.
Now we have an island (I'm only referring Jamaica) where it's inhabitants have for the most part been abandoned by the people that brought them there, where the vast majority DO live in seriously poor conditions not unlike how they lived 200yrs ago. Sure the tourist areas have nice roads running water etc,etc but step outside that zone and it's a totally different story, and to be fair the tourist industry is just another example / continuation of exploitation of the island and it's inhabitants, maybe you could use your imagination to get your head around that one.
Now I'm not saying that the UK should start handing £500k to each inhabitant of Jamaica but I do think they bare some responsibility for the state of affairs out there, how can they not.
01 October 2015, 01:32 PM
#38
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We did exactly this in Zimbabwe, and when they/Mugabe didn't do what these big institutions wanted they were ejected and sanctions imposed
Helped the poor enormously
Helped the poor enormously
01 October 2015, 01:55 PM
#39
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We tried to use 'political avenues' to force his hand, it didn't work, we are damned if we do, and damned if we dont.....
02 October 2015, 08:26 PM
#43
You could just as easily have ended your post right there. Yes, it's an unarguable fact that it's impossible to say how rich or poor the descendants of those enslaved ancestors would now be, if their ancestors hadn't been transported and enslaved. And for that exact same reason, it's impossible to now calculate how much compensation might be due or reasonable.
If you look at the popular holiday destinations around the world, large wealth disparities between visiting tourists and locals are hardly an uncommon thing, and certainly not unique to Jamaica or other former colonies where slavery was widely practised. The solution to that isn't to try and pin the blame for it on events that happened centuries ago (however unjust and inexcusable they might have been), but to use international institutions and the like to make sure the people in power in those places are giving their populations a fair deal first of all, and also to offer every practical and other assistance possible to make sure they know how to best improve their economies, and aren't unfairly prevented from actually doing so.
If you look at the popular holiday destinations around the world, large wealth disparities between visiting tourists and locals are hardly an uncommon thing, and certainly not unique to Jamaica or other former colonies where slavery was widely practised. The solution to that isn't to try and pin the blame for it on events that happened centuries ago (however unjust and inexcusable they might have been), but to use international institutions and the like to make sure the people in power in those places are giving their populations a fair deal first of all, and also to offer every practical and other assistance possible to make sure they know how to best improve their economies, and aren't unfairly prevented from actually doing so.
02 October 2015, 08:29 PM
#44
Ditchy,
Why doesn't Jamaica have (widespread) sanitation? Why is 'tourism' exploiting the Island?
At what point do Jamaicans become responsible for their own environment/situation?
Yes - slavery was wrong, and undoubtedly has caused unnecessary suffering for many many people, BUT what is stopping Jamaica from improving its own lot now?
Saying they have been 'abandoned' by those who brought them there - approx 50 or 60 years ago the country was granted the independence that it wanted, should 'we' not have granted that?
Why doesn't Jamaica have (widespread) sanitation? Why is 'tourism' exploiting the Island?
At what point do Jamaicans become responsible for their own environment/situation?
Yes - slavery was wrong, and undoubtedly has caused unnecessary suffering for many many people, BUT what is stopping Jamaica from improving its own lot now?
Saying they have been 'abandoned' by those who brought them there - approx 50 or 60 years ago the country was granted the independence that it wanted, should 'we' not have granted that?
03 October 2015, 08:33 AM
#46
Where did I say I was referring specifically to Jamaicans living in the immediate vicinity of tourist resorts, or employed in them? My point still stands. Go to Mexico, Costa Rica, Thailand, or pretty much anywhere that so-called better-off Westerners head to to soak up the sun on beaches, and you'll find a large difference in the average national income of those countries' populations and that of the tourists visiting them. This isn't by any stretch of the imagination unique to former slave colonies.
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