Dingdongler

You're sounding like a nut job now and as Hodgy said earlier there is very little that separates you from people like Anjem Choudary.

I find all religious fanatics like yourself very scary as there is no reasonable debate to be had. I work with quite a few devout African christians and many of them believe in a conspiracy that dinosaur bones were 'planted' and aren't real. F8cking mental!

They also, like radical Muslims, have quite abhorrent views about same sex relationships.

I'd be interested to know what your opinion regarding man lying with man is JT? Will they all go to hell as well?

john banks

I thought it was real otherwise I wouldn't have tithed my student loans, never had sex before marriage, never been drunk, spent far too much time involved in church, gave back a massive accidental overpayment into my bank due to a bank error. Like all, I had my doubts which shone through oddly just after I got married in the final year of medical school. Prior to that, I believed in my heart and confessed it, had repented. My faith was challenged and I expected it to be strengthened but after many years simply couldn't believe it all any more. I didn't want to abandon it and wasn't running from anything and was genuinely seeking the truth. My Christian friends were mystified, especially as I was a leader. My wife shared the journey, she did full time Christian work for three years. We weren't playing at it.

The relief since has been considerable. It is quite refreshing to not see non Christians as primarily needing to believe what I believed, to be able to make good decisions even when an invisible god isn't watching. Other than that and what I believe inside, my life looks little different to many middle class Christians. I just give my money to the cats instead.

One good thing is that it has made me very sensible so I've been able to retire at 40 and my wife and I after 18 years are happily married still with no previous relationships to compare to. I would have for sure had a much more exciting teens and early twenties, and life would have been very different.

I nearly ended up training for ministry, and I guess with a small effort I could have kept that up as some do without actually believing any more. Just would need to drop the big engines LOL and I'd fit right in.

JTaylor

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-marriage.html

#8

Martin2005

In which case I sincerely hope I'm going to whatever place Ghandi did.

Sorry JT I really like and respect your views on most things, but do you have any idea how unhinged an illogical your position is on this?

JTaylor

Thanks for sharing.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Unless I've misunderstood several of his posts on the trot, there are two very important things that separate JT from Anjem Choudary and his ilk. The first is that other than sharing his beliefs on public forums such as this, JT appears to harbour little ambition to spread his religious message far and wide, and certainly doesn't seem inclined to do so by force. Second, it appears to be his view that any punishment to be visited on those who reject that message should come exclusively at the hands of God in the after-life, and most definitely not at the hands of his rabid followers here on Earth. Fair enough, those beliefs might not seem any more credible to you or I than the existence of mermaids or fairies, but so long as he isn't forcing them down our throats at the point of an AK47, or encouraging others to do so, who really cares?

JTaylor

My soteriological beliefs are informed by scripture, they're not a "position". How can there be salvation without damnation? Who are we to judge who is just or unjust, we're simply not equipped nor qualified!?

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

I believe Jesus to be the Son of God and as such I have to accept the harsh reality that there will be judgements made that are difficult to comprehend. For me it's about trusting in the Lord in all things and obeying His commands and that includes having the courage to cause offence by standing by teachings such as those found in John 3:18.

Martin2005

All I will say to that is God probably is pretty indifferent to what you believe or who you 'let into your heart', I'm sure he/she doesn't have an enourmous an ego.

JTaylor

I don't follow, Martin.

Martin2005

Why does who you let into your heart matter?

Seems a pretty irrelevant measure of godliness to me

JTaylor

It's pivotal if one's a Christian. If you're of the opinion that Christ's exclusive authority and divinity is irrelevant then you're not a Christian. That's your call.

Dingdongler

Fair point, I take back my comparison to AC and apologise to JT if any offence was caused.

JTaylor

Thanks, fellas.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I have a slightly different theory.

Man created God in his own image, or at least the son of God, who presumably bares some resemblance to his father.

Back in the days of the strongest being the leader, the older head of the "Tribe" that had become wise with age, saw the up and coming buck not of his linage was about to take control and overthrow his dynasty, at which point he would have lost control and probably had himself and his family wiped out, much like lions do, or possibly "Cast into the wilderness" and left to wonder until eternity in "Hell" (which was probably a desert area, with little or no water, where one would literally burn to death and be consumed by "demons" fearsome creatures that roamed these lands) and once cast out into this place there was no chance of return, certain damnation.



So clever bloke came up with the "God" concept along with a set of rules that must be adhered to, or you would be subject to "Eternal damnation" in the scary place that no other had ever returned from.

Think Moses, the Stone "MASON" that returned from the "Fearsome" place,
With tales of magical un explainable happenings at a time when people were in awe of "Thunder bolts and lighting" (very, very frightening things, Galileo. )

And so God fearing came into being.

Later, over many centuries scholars came up with the "Rule book" interspersed with "Tales of life" right and wrong doing and the consequences of such to help back up the "Story" and so control the masses, whom otherwise would have overthrown afore mentioned "Dynasty". This format was then copied by other tribal leaders (with slight differences) but all following the same basic principle.

As the world grew smaller people began to question who's version was the "Truth" so the leaders used the oldest "Trick" in "The Book" (think Kane and Able) and set one against the other, to distract the masses from the slight of hand that had been performed.

Enter the "Holy wars" and here we are to this day. Believers and Non believers, or the "Righteous and Slightly Less Righteous" or as I prefer to call them "The Gullible" fighting it out whilst those at the top continue to enjoy their privileged position.

HTH.

hodgy0_2

I suspect like ALL religious it is an absolute duty to Evangelise and convert

The comparison is quite simple and rests on the simple fact that both JT and Anjem Choudhry believe God is sovereign over humanity

That is a simple fact that is not in dispute - and as JT says simply no wriggle room

and from that top level position all else follows - it has to, otherwise you have a pick 'n' mix

and when you have this position it allows you to logically defend both the fact that Ghandi will go to hell whilst Myra Hindley receives the eternal love of God

It also allows Anjem Choudhry to logically defend whatever barbarism he wants, it allows those Nigerian Christians to defend whatever crackpot theories they may have upto and including child sacrifice

Do you believe that God is sovereign over humanity?

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Having cut and pasted some of your shi*e into Google I was not surprised to see loads of it turning up on more informed web pages.


Does this look familiar?


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnsho...-atheist-wins/


We are just miniscule sparks of light between two very long periods of darkness.


Get used to it.

hodgy0_2

the ONLY requirement for entry to heaven is to let Jesus into your life - full stop

it is not a question of good, bad, sin, sinless

https://www.scoobynet.com/920059-who...l#post11428099

JTaylor

Amazing grace!

hodgy0_2

sure even for suicide bombers IF they receive Jesus into their hearts in the millisecond before the time it takes for them to detonate their vest and the explosion

absolutely - they will receive the eternal love of God and Gandhi will rot in hell

amazing grace indeed

JTaylor

Quite a narrow window of opportunity, to be fair.

hodgy0_2

Lol, it's not about being fair

It is about having a logically consistent set of beliefs

jonc

Or that some have evolved beyond the physical form, beings than transcends the 3 dimensional limits that we're limited to, beings with no form that can no longer interact with the physical universe as they have no physical properties.......some might call them gods......

hodgy0_2

I think I have seen that Star Trek episode

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Fair enough, but there are many different ways and means of doing that, some quite harmless, some very much not so.

I already made the point in my earlier post, but I'll make it again now. The key difference is whether they believe God is sovereign over humanity only in the after-life, or also here on Earth. I think JT has been fairly consistent and explicit on this detail, both in this thread and in others where the same subject has come up. I would summarize my understanding of his position very briefly thus:
1. Man has free will here on Earth.
2. The choice of how he exercises that free will will be judged by God in the after-life.

In other words, God will do the judging in good time, so there's no need for anyone here on Earth to step in and do the job for him.

As for what I personally believe, I've stated in passing in other threads that I'm a life-long atheist. I therefore don't believe in an after-life, so any threat or warning about what may or may not happen to me when the time comes for me to enter it is pretty inconsequential, to put it mildly.

Turbohot

No, no. It's just that Gandhi Ji won't go to the Abrahamic heaven, that's all.

hodgy0_2

well lets let JT clear that one up

JTaylor

You're both correct. As Hodgy asserts, I do indeed believe God to be sovereign in this life, yet in His sovereignty he's granted us free will. This affords humanity the opportunity to reject Him and His truth, to turn their back on Him or to embrace Him as Lord. As Mark has pointed out, it is my belief that God will judge all of us in the fullness of time.

Ultimately we're all born in to sin and as a race we're deserving of judgement. Only by acknowledging that sinful nature, repenting and accepting that Jesus died on the cross for our sin can we be reconciled with the Father.

jonc

I was thinking more along the lines of this
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

hodgy0_2

but that we have free will on earth is a fact (so markmd comments don't really add much imo), it is your belief, that we do that in violation of gods laws and sovereignty

THAT is the key point

JTaylor

One can look at the two extremes with regards to the apparent dichotomy of free will versus God's sovereignty. The first extreme (much beloved by anti-theists) is to say that God is a great celestial dictator and that we're all automata. The other extreme is to promote free will to the extent that God is not omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. The Biblical truth is that when God chooses us and redeems us He does not violate our wills, but He does change our hearts so that our wills choose Him.

"We love Him because he first loved us" 1 John 4:19.

I've offered this illustration before, but I'll repeat it here: our relationship with the Lord is like that of a loving father with his child. The father can encourage and reward and punish and rebuke all for the good of the child, but ultimately it is the child who decides whether to obey or rebel or even to deny their father altogether. And so it is with God and humanity. As previously stated it's about trust and obedience and by the grace of God, like Paul, I've had my heart softened and have opted to accept and follow Christ with my reward being atonement with the Father.