jonc

I think I've gone through this with JT a while ago, that there is no such thing as "free will"; since God is all powerful and all knowing, God already knows the choices we are going to make according to his design, everything is preordained to Gods will.

hodgy0_2

well all the free will stuff is flim flam - it is all moot tbh

as I have stated it all starts with the fact that you have to accepts God's dominion over man, on earth and heaven

it is a binary choice - yes or no

everything then flows from that simple fact

and from there you can pretty much get anywhere, it is simply a matter of degrees and interpretation - but it all comes from that central belief

JTaylor

Good men disagree on this, Jon. Theologically it's usually classed as Calvinism v. Arminianism. As ever, I go back to scripture, Paul says in Romans 11 33-35:

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?
35 Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?

We can't know the mind of God, but we can know that the elect are free, having broken the chains of sin and having become cloaked in righteousness bought by the blood of Christ.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

The Master Of Cut and Paste is still at it!

JTaylor

jonc

To be fair, this is one the best threads in a while, and if you choose to, will give the ol' grey matter some exercise.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I'm sorry, but if the subject of discussion here is whether or not a fervent believer might use their religion as justification to go around murdering or otherwise maltreating non-believers, that isn't the key point at all. The key point in that case would be whether their religion advocates men standing in judgement over non-believers, as opposed to deferring entirely and unquestioningly to God to do so.

hodgy0_2

Sorry, that is not the subject of discussion, (certainly not my discussion) you may have to read the thread again - carefully

My point, and I am repeating this for umpteen time

Ready

Ok here goes

Both JT and Aj accept and believe in the sovereignty of the Lord, over man - in heaven and on the earth - and ultimatly that sole fact is the key to entry into heaven

Please understand what I actually write - not what you think I am writing

Matteeboy

It's like two gnomes arguing whether they believe in orcs or not.
What a waste of mental capacity!

JTaylor

Why choose Choudary? Why not Martin Luther King Jr. or Francis Collins or Cliff Richard? Ok, maybe not Cliff, but I'm sure you take my point. You're trying to conflate (again) my theism with the theism of somebody who you know I struggle to love and forgive. A man whose philosophy I believe to be the polar opposite of mine. It's a little cruel.

hodgy0_2

To demonstrate the perversity and absurdity of your beliefs (and AJ)

On the top level stuff, on the no wriggle room, on the binary decisions

You agree

Ooperbum

You're all a bunch of nut jobs.

Have you discovered fanny, drugs and alcohol yet??

You lot need to get out more!!!!

You lot are what is wrong with the UK. Full of religion fruit loop nutters

JTaylor

No we don't. I believe in a trinitarian God, Choudary a unitarian God. I believe Jesus to be God incarnate, Choudary doesn't. Choudary believes Christ to be a prophet and Mohammad to be the final prophet. I assert that Mohammad is a false prophet. I look to emulate the Prince of Peace, Choudary a warmonger.

You're way off the mark on this, Hodgy, the characters of our respective Gods (inspite of the claim that they are both the same Abrahamic God) are demonstrably different. Just take a look around the world.

hodgy0_2

Sure but on the central truth, the ultimate sovereignty of God, over heaven and earth you agree

That is the truth of it

You can obfuscate all you like, you can shout all you like about different abrahamic gods but that is the truth

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Right, so your choice of AJ as a comparison had nothing to do with the fact he's a part-time apologist for religiously motivated acts of terrorism? Purely coincidental, was it? Sure, whatever.

JTaylor

I'll concede that we both believe in the sovereignty of God, but that is a truth not the truth. I'm not obfuscating and I'm not shouting, I'm merely pointing out that to draw parallels between me and Choudary is like drawing a parallel between Aneurin Bevan and Joseph Stalin on the grounds that they
were both socialists.

Torquemada

hodgy0_2

maybe, after all both Aneurin Bevan and Joseph Stalin were humans so I am sure may have shared the same views regarding like or dislike of coffee etc –
quite possibly

but the Sovereign nature of God (on heaven and earth for the continued benefit of markmd) is what stands above every single thought and action – it sits at the top of the decision tree, it drive every subsequent action, it has to, logically

it has to be a simply binary choice

much like, being “saved” or not - no if’s no but’s, you either are or are not, no grey area

that gives the central logic to Ghandi, No – Myra Hindley, Yes

but that "logic" is so skewed, that it does not stand up to a nanosecond of rational thought

it confirms that it is not really about being good (or bad) living a caring, loving, moral life or not

as I have said in discussions before – in true terms there is no such thing as “Christianity lite” no pic ‘n’ mix, no go to church and meet "nice" people, you believe in all of it and accept the inevitable logic, Ghandi out, Fred West in, or you don't

because it all comes down to one simple fact – accept Jesus into your life or suffer the rejection of God – period

Ultimately – as John Banks pointed out, when you evangelise, your product is fear and doubt, like the Asteroid Insurance salesman, selling fear and doubt

That’s fine each to their own – I 100% reject it, all of the above, – I know it is all a complete load of tosh, and extremely dangerous tosh

As I said, that we have our own free will is a fact – that it is granted by a sovereign god is codswallop

But you can see where the Evangelical George Bush gets his War on Terror meme – that you are either with us or against us – a binary choice, no ifs or buts, no grey area – yes or no, and then proceeds to devastate a whole region on that one simple premise

As I say I 100% reject that analysis of life/humanity from wherever and whoever it comes from

Just one point – it may be tempting to believe that I used to “believe” and had, like some people, a reverse epiphany (the disgruntled former employee theory) , sorry not true, I have never been religious

My understanding of Evangelical Christianity came from a guy I used to work with, 30 odd years ago, a nice guy, but like your views JT I found them then, as I do now (in fact more so) increasingly dangerous, and totally at odds with my view on humanity

JTaylor

What are your views on the concept or nature of sin, Hodgy?

JTaylor

I've found love and hope.

hodgy0_2

well obviously I totally reject the concept that we are all inherently sinful and in need of salvation

I am afraid that is a simple cop out - humanity has its problems, but they are for humanity to solve

not an external agency (that actually does not exist)

outsourcing morality and truth to a non existent third party is partly the cause of the world problems

hodgy0_2

I find love and hope - in the "here and now" with my fellow humans

I don't need some external validation of my humanity (fallible as it maybe)

JTaylor

I suspect this is central to your unbelief: you do not recognise sin, let alone refer to yourself as a sinner. As Jesus said in Mark 2:17 "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." You don't need Jesus. I did and do and by grace I was given the gift of faith.

JTaylor

I find love and hope in the here and now, too.

hodgy0_2

well, as I think I said in another post on the subject if that helps YOU and gives you strength, who am I to judge you for it

personally I still find logical contradictions that cannot be reconciled, with any religion (and by that I mean the main three Abrahamic religions)

JTaylor

Such as the Hindley/Gandhi paradox?

Turbohot

Define good men.

JTaylor

Yes, that's fair.

I would suggest that these are people who strive to be Christ-like in their internal and external lives; people who recognise their sin, hate it and trust that their spiritual growth is dependent on God. Good men who are united in a perseverance to obey God's commands. People who know they're saved because Jesus died on the cross. Folk who are humble and have prayed and subsequently realised ego death, but above all, people who place love at the centre of their lives.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...s%2015%3A36-41

JTaylor

On the contrary. Polkinghorne says that "the question of the existence of God is the single most important question we face about the nature of reality."

Anthony Kenny says, "After all, if there is no God, then God is incalculably the greatest single creation of the human imagination."

Matteeboy

One is a theologan, the other a religious philosopher.

So they both study made up nonsense. What a waste of a pair of brains.