buntz

Ok so I can feel a small amount of pulsing on the pedal. I think it's the fronts. I have a 01 bug eye wagon PPP with standard brakes. Looking to do a trackday soon so which make of discs. Should I get? Second hand brake upgrade or just some new vented/drilled discs from EBC ETC...

stonejedi

iTrader: (51)

It all comes down to how much money you have to play with,but for Trackday use I would upgrade to at least the brembo calipers and get a decent disc and pad set up like performance friction and some braided brake lines and a good brake fluid,and you should be good to go.SJ.

Linksfahrer

Have a read of this:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/shedding-light-on-fading-brakes-testing-procedures-page-2

What I like about the link is you can see test results of big disc kits.

So even just getting the disks skimmed and a set of pads will help.
But to get over the fade at the track you need "bigger" discs. New calipers are not absolutely required.

Linksfahrer

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

New calipers will be required for hard track action as the wrx 4 pots won't cut it, unless you track it mildly with cooling down periods.

I'd go brembo hc discs with a good track type pad.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

We supplied a customer a couple of weeks ago with our 335mm kit along with the oversized DS3000 pads and said they gave amazing performance with the Standard Subaru 4 pot calipers on the track day they did , so no , you do not need to change the calipers , you just need to fit the right pads to suit the application

To the OP , its the pads you need to think about more for doing track days , this is what gets used the hardest on track days , we can supply you various options , for track days Carbonne Lorraine RC5+ pads are very good , they are very good for road use as well but can squeal at low speeds which puts some off

Cheers Ian

Linksfahrer

Hi Busta As always Yeah and Calipers, If Buntz has the cash ?

Discs & SH brake upgrade ?,
So best look at the for sale section here for the Brembo's

regds Ralph

buntz

thanks for the replies, i don't intend doing lots of track days, but having read up on here the brakes seem to be a weak point, I'm inclined to replace the discs (fronts) and pads, along with the fluid, but i'll keep the stock callipers for now, any suggestions on parts much appreciated.
godspeed, i'll have a look on your website but if you want to get back to me via here with some options that'd be great. cheers
buntz

Linksfahrer

On a budget ? , the suggestion above trade or otherwise. Is backed by the link I passed.

"Caliper size is a small component in fade resistance, as most of the braking heat goes into the rotor."

Sure the link shows that to top of the range Biggest Brake/Caliper solution gave the top result but at a price. but in the end its Law of diminishing returns.

Main thing is you can go out on the track and have some fun without cooking your brakes on 2nd lap.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

tell that customer todo 10-20 hard laps at Cadwell and then see what they say (1 track day doesn't say much, he may of not been on the limits, who knows)

buntz

so linksfahrer are you saying i should go with bustamoves idea and go for new brembo discs and pads, with stock callipers? obviously i'll inspect and refurb callipers as necessary.
busta, can you elaborate on "hc discs and track type pads" i.e. where can i get some and what is the hc bit?

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

I'd reccomend some brembo hc discs with pads like CL rc5+/6 or similar. (not 100% sure you can get them for wrx caliper though)

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Brembo high carbon discs, as it may be slightly pricey to some but not to other as it will give good friction as its made of better grey irons (or choose some other plain cheaper alternatives to suit you) . I find the plain discs better for me when using a hard track pad like CL rc6 which are heavy on discs. And the brembo discs I found last longer in life.

Linksfahrer

"Buntz so linksfahrer are you saying i should go with bustamoves idea and go for new brembo discs and pads, with stock callipers? obviously i'll inspect and refurb callipers as necessary. "

I think what I saying is , if you can afford it go with a good quality brake kitnothing wrong with Brembo's/ Alcon/ Prodrive/ Willwood/ Stoptech/ AP

However, unless you can pick some up SH on the Net you are going to be looking at serious money. Personally I don't have a choice as where I live its hard to convince TÜV tester to approve aftermarket brakes on a WRX, Its either Prodrive (As my car is a PPP) or Brembo as original STi equipment. The fact that standard brakes IMHO downright inadequate for this type of car here in Germany is irrelevant in the TÜV tester eyes.

I believe the evidence in the Link testing shows that you will do a lot better with most any aftermarket solution , if you want to go and have some safe fun Id say get some bigger discs and Race fluid / SST leads on

Linksfahrer

I forgot , At the cheaper end of the fleabay end drilled discs do tend to crack, something I have managed in the past on EBC "copies" and even Tarox.

So Busta suggests Plain high carbon with track pads.

Grooved discs offer a good solution to wear rate and help get the dust/gas away to give improved bite , again with Pads. You need to read more about these on the site and and apply your preferences on dust/bite/wear etc then make your own experience

buntz

are the brembo's off a classic the same fitment for a bugeye? and are there "small" and "big" callipers? i.e. some that won't require different wheels/spacers?
buntz

AS Performance

iTrader: (4)

the STi brembo was only ever fitted to new-age cars.......
there are some after-market kits using the smaller GT type caliper also and this has more clearance

Brembo HC discs are probably the best there is and not as expensive as you may think if you buy them from the right place

buntz

Like how much? Checked as performance website and it says "coming soon"

Linksfahrer

As a rule disks with Alluminium hats 2pc discs are preferable to full steel due to the superior thermal character, the thermal capacity of steel to heat any caliper/axel assembly is double that of alluminum. The other advantage of a 2pc is a reduction in the unsprung weight which gives you a slightly better feel in handling.

So Brembo for example also have a Race range which are 2 pc design.

http://www.brembo.com/it/Auto/Racing...ATION_LIST.pdf page 55 -56

Of the solid versions Brembo HC's have better retard rate than standard steel together with say Ferredo DS2500 which are a proven club level mod. Although the decelleration rate of any setup will ultimately depend rather more on your ABS and tires/suspension combination.

Im already thinking about doing a test solids v 2pc splits. But it il have to stop raining first . .

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Tbh a 2 piece disc is not really needed for a road/track car with above suggested set up unless it's a race car etc. plus the cost of them too.

As for caliper clearance, yes the brembo (sti) caliper will need the sti wheels as wrx won't clear, but there's also brembo gran turismos as alyn suggested (but they don't come up often) and I belive the k sport 330mm will clear wrx wheels.

Tbh your better off getting some sti wheels if funds allow (they have a better stance too) and get the brembo calipers with a good combination, this will future proof you later on.

Of no monies ATM for this then just buy some cheap discs for now with some cheap pads like pagids and then buy the upgrade bits in time.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

Grooved discs are better than plain discs , if they weren't you wouldn't see grooved discs on racing and rally cars , the factory teams use them , unless they don't know what buster does !

Buster always mention the setup in his old car being the best available , and he thinks he knows best , when he doesn't !

The main thing your doing when fitting grooved discs , is expelling the gas build up between the disc and pad , all pads give off gases , the harder the compound in pad , the less it will do it , the harder the pad , the less they work properly in day to day use ,the harder the pad , the quicker they chew through your discs so you need to find a good all round pad for YOUR needs , not anyone else's.

Ok you can fit RC6 pads and a plain disc , and the performance would be very similar to a grooved disc and the slightly milder RC5+ pads , but the problem with pads like the RC6 is they will wreck your wheels , and the will leave metal deposits up the side of your car and in this weather it will stick to the paint and go rusty , and they chew through discs , ok great if you have a track car you don't really care about , if you have a nice car you look after it will be a nightmare !

You will have certain people telling you to get this and that , if your going down the route of STi Brembo's , you will still need good discs and pads , the calipers you get will probably need threads fixing , might need seals , I certainly wouldn't fit used ones without having them checked first , then you will need wheels to clear them as your WRX wheels will not clear them , so by the time you have got it all on your probably close to spending a grand !

Options we would offer , and we have loads of options ..

Grooved front discs and RC5+ pads Ł225 , this set up is a very good all round set which will take quite a lot of track abuse , and is also very good on the road , the only downside is they can squeal at low speeds with low brake pedal pressure.
Would be much better again if you also changed the rears as well , getting the backs to work more will take some of the strain away from the front brakes so they won't be over worked , and also make the car more stable as the back will also dig in and make the car brake flatter and not nose dive so much , front and rears are Ł395.

Our 335mm kit , which is a larger and thicker disc , with larger than standard pads , this kit retains the standard Subaru 4 pot calipers , and as long as the calipers are working properly with no sticking pistons , there isn't another new front brake kit that comes close to the performance of these for the same money , this kit fits under the standard WRX wheels.

The benefits of a 2 piece disc is they are lighter than the same sized one piece disc so you will have less unsprung weight , as the bells are made of aluminium , aluminium dissipates heat quicker than steel so the discs would run cooler , and you get less heat transfer into the bearings , and when the discs heat up to track temps and expand , it allows slight movement on the bells so much less chance of them warping .
When a 2 piece disc and bells wears down , you only need to change the outer rotor as you re-use the bells again and again

Then on from there we offer a 330mm kit , that uses new AP 4 pot calipers , choice of pads , brackets ect , full kit ready to fit , again they fit under the standard wheels , and this kit we sell for Ł1100.

I guess you need to work out your needs and budget , and then see whats available to you

If you need a chat , you can ring me on 01656 723060 and I can run through any options with you

Cheers Ian

imprezaworks

iTrader: (9)

I've just fitted slightly used Godspeed grooved discs and standard pagid pads with four pot calipers, brilliant improvement. Looking to do a trackday soon so will see how I get on. Just to note I had plain discs with pagid pads previously and these are leagues ahead imo. If and when I need new discs again I will be contacting Godspeed for sure.

G10

I've had good service from Godspeed and they'd be my first point of call. They do know their stuff.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Ian, wtf are you saying FFs
I never said that plain discs were better than grooves,

So please quote where I have actually said this?

And I have tried a few combination so thumbs up for you knowing f all about what I have or have not tried. The problem here is I didn't like your 335kit and I'm man enough to say it, and unfortunately you don't like it when someone tells you straight.

For most drivers, yes they are great, but not for me or my driving style (it's the caliper that lets them down when driven hard for long intervals, short blasts are fine, it's when the iron caliper get hot fluid in there just boils up in there and you said just bleed it out every few laps. You don't need to do that with brembos or any other upgraded caliper)

I actually said I preferred them to grooves when using rc6 as they eat away at the discs, so the grooves won't be there for long in my eyes and that I would rarther buy hc plain discs as they last longer and they have a better grey iron mixture instead of the low grey iron you find in cheap discs (for a normal pad they are fine).
Grooves are good discs if not using a high compound pad as you'll make most of the grooves for longer.

How come you don't reccomend the ebc blue/orange stuff you used to rave about?

Of course a brake supplier will do anything to defend his stock which is fair enough. But in short wrx calipers are ****e for a hard driver, I've said it before and I'll say it again. End of. So think before you buy a 335kit and think how much the replacement rotors will cost too. Cheaper in long run To go for brembos

I don't doubt for 1 minute you sell crap stock as they are fine for most people and for ones budget, but you get what you pay for.

Now FFs let this stalking go, if you don't like my comments I make, just don't reply quoting me in every post.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

and here is the word from a man I trust.

buntz

wow i only asked! anyhow having read as much as poss on this and other sites , went out for a "bedding in session" this eve, braking progressively harder from 40, then 60 then quite a bit more the brakes felt ok but i got out for a look after a cool down period and there was smoke pouring off the fronts. on inspection the front discs are plain (non drilled grooved ) and the rears are drilled and grooved, both sets are in good condition with no lipping and the pads have heaps of meat left on them and appear to be blue on the edges, this session seems to have cleared the "pulsing pedal" i was initially concerned about, however coming from a race bike background i would have to go back to the late 70's to find a bike without drilled discs, so i'm gonna replace the front discs, pads, and fluid. i'm now thinking godspeed discs or equivalent, and bluestuff pads. let me know what you all think. and go easy on each other!
buntz

Linksfahrer

And he said "there was smoke pouring off the fronts."

I exactly know what you have done and I have the T shirt.

AS Performance

iTrader: (4)

if you have smoke "pouring off the fronts" then your cooling process is massively flawed and/or you have far over-cooked the pad material (all things being free to move correctly, etc.)

IMO you should NEVER carry out an aggressive pad bedding process unless the manufacturer specifically recommends it and should definately not be done for new discs unless they are factory heat treated/bedded (only PFC carry out this process to my knowledge)

for a road car THE most important component is the pad material - use whatever fancy discs & patterns you like but if you use cheap/low friction pads then rotors will not make up for the lack of "bite"..............

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

Wow swearing and aggressive reply to my post , very clever and grown up by you !



HC discs do not give good friction because they are HC discs , here are the reasons Brembo give for high carbon discs , so you saying they give better friction is rubbish !

Please explain why you think plain discs are better for you ?

Brembo's info on them

HIGH-CARBON CONTENT CAST IRON DISCS
Made with special Cast Iron, thanks to the use of high
technology equipment and special metallurgical knowledge.
Brembo’s philosophy has always been to only offer replacement market discs designed
and produced with the same criteria as original equipment, both from the point of view
of quality and finish, and the material used. Criteria that Brembo knows to perfection; it
is, in fact, one of the principal European brake disc producers and supplies almost all
the Car Manufacturers.
ADVANTAGES OF THE COMPLETE CYCLE
The Brembo technicians are very well aware that, in certain car models, only the use of
discs made with special high-carbon content cast irons allows possible noise problems
to be eliminated. Cast irons that Brembo, unlike the majority of its competitors, develops
and produces directly in its own foundries, controlling their quality in all stages of
production.
THE IDEAL SOLUTION FOR THE MOST CRITICAL APPLICATIONS
Currently special high-carbon content cast irons are used for over 160 part numbers of
discs produced by Brembo for cars and commercial vehicles. The codes are identified
on the new packs and in the 2004 Catalogue with the international code HC (High
Carbon). A disc offers its user the maximum guarantee of quality for the best
performance, even with the most critical applications.
IDENTIFIED BY THE CODE HC, THESE BRAKE DISCS OFFER HIGH
TECHNOLOGY MATERIALS, TO GUARANTEE OPTIMUM RELIABILITY
EVEN WITH THE MOST PROBLEMATIC APPLICATIONS.
TECHNICAL OPINION
Why high-carbon content cast iron?
The principal difference between this type of cast iron and the standard one normally
used lies in its specific chemical composition. It is therefore much more suitable both to
damp possible noise, guaranteeing better comfort, and to improve thermal conductivity
and, consequently, the discs cooling capacity. Depending on the specific application,
HC cast iron can also contain alloy elements able to improve the mechanical properties
even further.
Curno, September 2004
For information: Monica Michelini Press Office Tel. 0039 035 605277 Fax 0


And this is going back 10 years , there are lots of other people supple HC discs now , I've said it many times before that we also do.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

You said above you find plain discs work better for you , in other words you find plain discs better , which is not true , reasons I have already given above.

Again , I have said before , the reason you didn't like my 335mm kit is you didn't have the right pads in to suit you , are you so stupid to finally realise that ? I have mentioned it a million times before when you go on the rampage slagging them off trying to get people not to buy them lol , if you put the right pad the Subaru calipers will cope in most applications , they will need rebuilding in the most extreme conditions such as back in the day with group N racing and rallying when they had to use the Subaru 4 pots , are you saying that everyone was driving around with no brakes ?
They were fitting pads capable of dealing with such high temps , so you keeping on about how bad the subaru caliper is , and how it doesn't work is also rubbish.

You had EBC bluestuff pads in your car , so yes if your as aggressive on brakes as you say you are these pads will not be good for you , if you fitted a pad on the lines of the RC6 pads you keep praising with the 335mm kit you would never have any issues however many track days you did
You also slagged the orangestuff pads off saying you had used them in your 335mm kit until I caught you out and said they hadn't made them then , I fitted orangestuff pads in my 600hp GTR , and they were very good in stopping that , many people have found them good on the track , others haven't , but as there are so many variables , drivers , cars ect I wouldn't expect anything else.

I still sell Blue and orangestuff pads thanks , along with loads of other type pads , after trying the RC5+ pads I find them better than Orangestuff which is why I recommended them here.

Again i'm not stalking you , just correcting your poor incorrect info.

Have a nice day

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

Just a quick note , usually if you feel pulsing through the pedal and not any steering wheel shake , its the back brakes causing the problem , if you have since gone out and given them a hiding and its stopped , it could be pad deposits that have then cleaned off.

It would be worth checking out the front calipers as they have a tendency to stick or sieze causing problems

Cheers Ian