stavros

I need opinions on this.
I know the APs are much more expensive.
Does it really worth it?

What is the comparison in performance betaeen the 6pot kit of these brands?

Normski

I have the Ap 6 pot kit on mine and can recommend it highly.
They have done two years of road mileage on my car plus 5 or 6 trackdays (inc Spa-francochamps and Nurburgring) without any problems at all.

They are fully dust sealed for low maintenance. There is a saying that applys to most things; you get what you pay for.

skyline gtr v

A.p are the best ever, No fade at all just cant get them to go off.

Chelspeed

Yep I've got AP 6 pots too. Very happy. No problems. Very reassuring even towing at silly speeds with a race car on a trailer behind.

Not sure anyone will be able to help you, some people will have tried one make, others the other. Everyone will say their's are the best for obvious reasons. And since they're both good nobody will have tried one then changed it for the other so likely nobody will have tried both.

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

thought wilwoods were not dust sealed... AP very good quality.. can't fault them

Buckrogers

AFAIK the willwoods are not dust sealed.

If you can afford it get the AP's. If you want to go a bit cheaper get the Willwoods.

AP 6 pots are the mutts nuts.

theotherphil

I bought the AP 6 pots recently and wish I did it 3 years sooner....best mod I've done!

bighead

iTrader: (1)

Ap by far

MrRA

AP get my vote. I spent nearly 3k on having the front and rear kits (soon to be fitted) and the quality of them is spot on. Just can't wait to use em in anger

borat52

Just had the wilwood front and rears done on my car (£1.4k). I've never been in a subaru with AP's but the wilwoods are streets ahead of the subaru 4 pots (had ds2500's in the 4-pots too). Completely confident in stopping from some silly speeds (100+) now, no fade that I have experienced.
Wilwods do not have dust seals - fact.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

I used to run Brembo callipers and AP discs on PTMW! from the original Scoobysport kit.

This was a fantastic combination that allowed me 30-40 minutes of track time on open pit lane sessions without fear of brake fade and meant that I could be confident when I hit the brakes every time. I'm not reknowned for being a slouch round the track either, so believe me when I said those brakes were doing their job

Anyway, my point is this. Is it that a decent pad (DS2500/3000) and a decent disc (AP) will be just as efficient with different calliper types? So, save some money on AP callipers, get Wilwoods and you will stop just as well?

I am considering that a calliper is just a hydraullic device for passing pressure from the brake pedal onto the pistons which clamp the pad material against the disc. The friction generated (so the suitability of the match of the two materials) stop the car.

In theory, as long as the pad size (area of contact) is roughly the same as is the number and size of the pistons, then the braking should be the same.

The only other considerations are heat dissipation in the calliper (away from fluid to stop it boiling and to allow the pad to cool) and weight of components (effect on unsprung weight) which is a suspension thing.


Pic of Phil Bennett's brakes in action during the 2001 BTCC series.



Note that he is using AP4s on (I think) 17s. 4 pots good enough for those boys running sub 50 seconds of Brands Hatch Indy!



I am wondering this as I'm looking to get some decent callipers to replace the 2 pots on my RA before I go back out on track. I have some Alcon Group N discs and although I can buy AP4s, they are expensive to say the least I think that I can get the same levels of braking power/feel/fade resistance and ultimately confidence by using a good pad/disc combo but a slightly less expensive calliper? Unsprung weight on a scoob won't make much difference for a track car and as long as decent fluid is used, nor will boiling of fluid.

Any comments on this?

MrRA

IMO the caliper is more than just a hydraulic device. Different materials and different construction methods will affect the performance of a caliper and its attributes - stiffness, deflection, heat transfer etc.

AP are known for having strong caliper designs, I cannot comment on the Willwoods as I've never had any experience of them.

coulty

Um they definately look like 6 pots to me!

Hoppy

PTMW, in brief... you're right.

Track driving gives brakes a horrendous hammering, which basically equates to lots of heat that has to be got rid of fast and without causing damage/fade etc. Best way to do this is with a two-piece disc and bell, like APs, although alloy calipers also help. Plus appropriate pads, fluid etc.

Godspeed do a conversion kit disc/bell with a Subaru four-pot steel caliper that is good value. But there's no beating APs, and resale value is good. You don't need six-pots BTW (even though I've got them ).

Richard.

PS Personally, I would not fit my road car with calipers that don't have dust seals. It's a reliability thing on vital components that get covered in ****, most of which you can't see or clean easily. So no Willwoods for me.

PPS It was also the **** problem that caused ScoobySport to discontinue the original Brembo floating discs you had, wasn't it?

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

No, it was the cracking problem LOL

TBH I can't recall precisely but one of my pads delaminated at Silverstone when the kit was but a couple of months old & deeply scored the disk. This was at the time of various questions on the disks (Phil Bennett leading the tirade!) and Pete replaced mine with the APs with which I had no problem.

Thinking about it, the discs weren't floating properly (****?) and that was causing issues.

I've had a look with JamesH/JamesH-2/Puff usernames but can't shed much light.

joey_turbo

iTrader: (26)

Old thread I know, but its touches on the subject I'm after.
When people refer to Wilwoods as not have dust seals, what do you mean? The pistons? Can this not be rectified?

Hoppy

Dust seals are usually a rubber boot which protects the pistons and bores from salt and crud. I think they are designed integral with the caliper so not retro-fittable. You'll have to check with the manufacturer.

As a very rough generalisation, road brakes have/need dust seals for obvious good reasons. Racing brakes tend not to have them, as they get stripped and cleaned after every race. Dust seals just get in the way.

borat52

I've had the wilwoods on my car for 2 and a half years now. make sure I keep them clean when I wash the car and they have been no problem at all.

However, with the $:£ at the moment it may not be cost effective to buy them over the AP's.

I paid £1400 for front and rear kits delivered back in 2006, you may struggle to get them under £2k now which can't be far off AP money. If money were no object I'd have gone for the AP's but at the time wilwoods were half the price.

sti4life

Dude, the AP is much better promising brake system than the Wilwood. If people who really knows about big brake kits, everyone should know why Wilwood is so damn cheap.

1. The mass produce is very very large bulk quantities compared to other big brake kits brand.
2. They have a defective design in the brake caliper.
3. Their brake pads is one of a kind. So you have no choice but to buy their own branding brake pads.

The defective design in the Wilwood calipers are their pistons. Their pistons are too small and too short, thus changing to Wilwood may sometimes worse than your OEM single pot calipers. If we put aside the piston size, the major defect is the piston length. When the piston is too short of a distance, it doesn't push out as much as you normally should do upon braking. This cause weakness in the braking or shall I say not enough strength in the braking and most of all, if some of you have wilwood calipers, you'll notice you need to change the brake pads often, and when you change your wilwood pads, you'll notice that the pads are only half used. This is all because the piston length is too short. The small piston diameter size also cause braking to be weaker than your OEM calipers.

joey_turbo

iTrader: (26)

Seems like good advice. But this trhead is over 2 and half years old, so I think the OP has already made their mind up. Answers my question though.

sti4life

Dough! haha~ silly me, I didn't even check the dates. But anyways, if anyone have any brake questions, I can answer them for you all, thank you.