Plucking Pheasants

Bit of a tricky one, I have quite few question on this subject, so please bear with me guys!
Its not with a Subaru either, but this forum seems to have more techy know how and I need some sound advice, so here I am.

Basically, its my dads car and he's had new pads fitted all round. The garage decided upon themselve to fit Ferodo DS pads (2000 or 2500 - I'm not sure), supposedly under the belief that because they are fast road pads they are supposed to be better

I think otherwise!

My dad, is not a fast driver, neither does he use the brakes hard, and the car is his summer time car so only does about 2000miles a year. So really normal pads IMO would have be fine (and much cheaper!).

What I would like to know is what long term consequences of using in particular Ferodo DS2000/2500 pads without them ever getting up to temperature, with infrequent usage and never being used hard??

Will they glaze up, or the will the discs become dirty due to lack of abrasion?? They are also new discs on the front, DS2000/2500 apprently being a disc friendly pad will this mean they will never bed in under this type of use?? Is there anything else that will or will not happen??

And more importantly what is safer and will give the best braking performance and feel in the mentioned conditions? Ferrodo say these pads work ok when cold, but they don't say anything about lots of useage when cold, they also don't say how well they work when cold either. Which is why my feelings are that he has the wrong pads which are making the cars stopping power worse, not better, and in the worst case, dangerous!

I personally have had problems with other fast road pads when used alot round town on short journeys, needing a good hard stamp on the pedal at 80mph to clean them back up and get them working again properly. Would this be the case for DS2000/2500s??
Somehow I can't see my dad doing that everytime he takes the car out for a run - if it ever gets up to 80mph that is!

Please, can anybody set me straight on this. Everybody seems to know how well pads work when hot or under hard frequent use. But nobody seems to know anything about how well they work under infrequent, cold and light usage.

Help!!

PP

Steve vRS

Hard pads like these need a good spanking every now and again to clean off the top layer of glazed material. I'm not sure if it makes them unsafe in such a way as to increase braking distances but it wure will make them noisy!

The style of driving you describe would lead me to get the pads changed for a softer compound (EBC Greenstuff or OEM pads). You may be able to sell the old pads on Ebay!

Steve

Plucking Pheasants

Thanks, I thought they may glaze, so what is the worst that could happen if they never get spanked?

The first port of call is to try and get the garage to change them for OE. Although I can't see this happening as the bloke seems a rather dubious character (out to make a few quick £££s I suspect). Seeing the pads were invoiced at £95 front and £65 rear, when OE pads are around £55 to 35 Front-rear, I probably could get them even cheaper if I shopped about.

PP

Andy916

iTrader: (8)

Yup, probably. Camsport delivered Red stuff pads to me next-day for 50-ish front, 40-ish rear, for the Impreza. They're 'fast road' type, although they seem quiet and efficient under gentle use (they've done 100 or 200 miles only and I haven't hammered them yet) on Black Diamond disks.

Buckrogers

Greenstuff pads are excellent cold bite, generally ok to use for cars running up to 200BHP.

Buck

http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com

Plucking Pheasants

Sorry, but I would not be interested in purchasing another set of fast road pads seeing that is what is already fitted! And most likely have the same or similar drawbacks.
Its these drawbacks that I want to confirm and ensure my personal experience is true to what typically will happen under the mentioned driving circumstances and usage.

PP

Buckrogers

What are the car details?

Plucking Pheasants

1985 Jaguar XJS v12 completely standard except for the pads

Never been above 60mph

Hoppy

DS2000 should be fine for that car and the circumstances you describe. It's not a Fiesta and two tons of Jag takes some stopping.

Plucking Pheasants

Are 100% sure about that? 2 tons is even to harder to stop if they are cold and glazed.

Honestly, last weekend he had gone for a drive for an over an hour round the countryside and when he got back, I was at his place and I took it upon myself to see how hot these brakes get. I could touch the calipers and the disc surface without burning my fingers. So the operating temperture is less than 50 degrees.

He also complained the brakes didn't feel very good either. But with only 200miles on them, they are nowhere near bedded in yet.

Apple

For that style of driving you don't need fast road / competition pads - ordinary bog standard stuff from the likes of Halfords will do - obviously get the pads for the car rather than the same shape that happens to fit a different car and is cheaper - the duty cycle may be different and hence the friction material could be different.

As you've found, competitiion type pads need a bit of heat in them to get them working better so a quick trip to the corner shop isn't going to do a lot to get them at "optimum efficiency" (unless you go "on a mission" to get a loaf )

MTR

Many years ago I ran Ferodo DS11 competition pads on my roadgoing MK 1 Mexico.
They were brilliant at high speed, very hard use, but for the most part they were completely bloody useless.
You don't realise at the time though.

I swapped the discs and pads to some AP Lockheed std pads and very nearly went through the windscreen.
The improvement around town was staggering.

Almost no peddle pressure was needed, and the car would be on its nose.

They weren't a patch at rallying speeds, but 95% of the time I was pootling around like everyone else.

The competition stuff is dangerous on the road.
No initial bite, you have hit the child before the brakes bite.

The fast road stuff for your dads application will be as bad.
Even Mintex M1155 on my STi were not as good as the std Jurid pads around town.

Cheers
MTR

Hoppy

With respect MTR, as you say that was many years ago

I have used DS2000, DS2500, Pagid RS421 and OEM pads and they all work fine from stone cold, at normal road speeds, and my car is a Classic, not a heavy Jag. Those that know me might say "but you've got AP 6-pots" but, apart from being irrelevant, I have used OEM and DS2000 pads in standard calipers with standard discs. No problems. Actually, the only brand of pads I have heard consistent comments about cold stopping problems have been EBC (although to be fair, they seem to have fixed that now).

If there is an issue here, it is with glazing and even OEM pads will do that. My mum's did, in her 205 Pug.

If PP still has doubts, then fit OEM. End of story.

Richard.

Plucking Pheasants

Thanks for your responses. It's great to have opinions, and often the view, well "they are ok on my car" is very valid. But it all depnds on the driver, and as I understand it 70% of people who have fitted fast road pads do so beacuse they have had problems with the OE pads and the other 29.9% fit them becuse of the marketing jargon, and usually would benefit anyway as they usually are enthusatic drivers.

I e-mailed Ferodo and got a response copied word for word from their advertising literature, with all the usual uncomitted generalistic claims "good bite from cold"...but what is deemed as "good"? Also nothing about long term consequences

That is all well and fine. The problem is is that I'm trying to get decent technical opinions of the outcomes not "they'll be ok" or "they'll be crap".

This is so I can get clued up on my information and if there is a case, I will be able to confidently challange the garage who supplied and fitted them without getting the brush off because of my lack of facts. Bear in mind that the garage fitted these type of pads without asking, I assumed they would fit OE or equivelent pads. So please try and appreciate where I am coming from with this before commiting yourself and ensure that you are 100% sure on what you say.

Regards

PP

Buckrogers

Which engine?

Basic technical advice from EBC themselves would be over 200BHP Redstuff Ceramic. Under 200BHP Greenstuff.

However, we have had many customers with eg Jag's and Impreza's, where the recommended pad is the Redstuff Ceramic. They have specifically requested the Greenstuff compound pad. These customers have not come back to us to state that the pad does not perform.

Greenstuff compound does have excellent cold bite. I use a set on my car (strangly enough!). If your Dad is not storming around at 100mph and slamming on the anchors from this speed every corner, Greenstuff should be fine for run of the mill driving.

HTH

Buck