ric

Why are the AP/Brembo/Alcon brakes so much better than the OEM brakes?

What are the reasons (and how much do they contribute to the better braking abilities?):

1) bigger discs?

2) wider discs (I think AP uses 28mm discs?)?

3) Aluminium calipers?

4) Aluminium mounting bell?

greetings and thanks for any comments

ric

Pete Croney

Ric

The answer is all of the points you have raised.

Out of interest all of these kits use 28mm discs and this does play a major part in the speed of heat loss.

ric

Hello Pete,

thank you for your answer.

What interested me is what part contributes to which level to the better brakes, could you please make a list, say the improvement is 100%....from where does this come from.....

1) bigger discs 20%?
2) wider discs 50% (as you say it is important)?
3) Aluminium calipers 20%?
4) Aluminium mounting bell 10%?
...am I right, or what is your list?

greetings
ric

PS There are a few Scooby owners in Switzerland waiting for a quote from you for a Scoobysport downpipe with dummy casing as in Switzerland there are VERY high fines for removing the catalyst. Could you please email the quote to scoobymike@dplanet.ch and to me (richimu@datacomm.ch).We are very interested and will maybe buy up to 4 downpipes (depends on the quote).

Stef

I would have thought the size of the disc was the most important factor in actual braking power, as it is this that provides the extra leverage. What makes these brakes so special though is their abilty to disperse the heat generated by braking.
The other points you've mentioned are all to do with heat dissipation, which enables the brakes to perform better for longer periods of time.
This theory is proven in a test that AP did using an Audi A6. They did a series of stops one after the other using the standard and then AP brakes, measuring the distance required to stop each time from 60mph. For the first couple of stops, there was no difference between them, but as the OE brakes got hotter, the distance required to stop increased dramatically whereas the AP's didn't change at all.
So, size of disc is most important factor for actual stopping power, and quality of components the most important for ability to sustain the extra performance. I'm sure Pete will confirm/deny this.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 15 January 2001).]

ruf

I suppose this is turning into the "Ask Pete Croney" session... Here's my shot: Why use Brembo calipers instead of AP on your 4-pot setup? I've posed this as well as a host of other questions to your website and I'm patiently awaiting answers, but I figured I might ask this here if it's not too much trouble.

ric

Hello Pete,

SORRY! Today I got an email of a friend and he told me that he couldn't forward me your email as he didn't have any time. So thank you for the quote, I will go this way and contact you on your email adress that is written on your BBS profile.
My mistake!

thank you and sorry for blaming you for something you didn't do!

ric

gregh

Are 28mm discs thicker than normal then?

To answer rufs question, the Scoobysport web site says:

There are many 4 pot callipers on the market, none use a pad that offers such a large swept disc area. It is this factor that provides so much braking torque.

Pete Croney

Thanks Greg ): that is exactly why we use the Brembo calliper and this set up is my preferred kit for fast road driving or track driving on road tyres. You need to be using warm slicks to use the even greater leverage of the AP 6 pots.

Ric I have mailed back DP prices.

Stef's description of why it all works is spot on. If you do an emergencyu stop from 100mph, the standard brakes will work OK, although you will feel the rate of retardation tailing off as you get down to 30mph. Try another one, straight after, and they will not work very well. Another one... and well you will need a LOT of room!!

If you try this exercise with any of the leading brake kits, they will perform totally predictably all the way down to rest, every time.

With the standard brakes it is easy to overheat them and then you must add an ever increasing margin of safety when approaching a bend. If the brakes behave predictably every time, this gives the driver confidence and makes the whole driving experience enjoyable.

Mr Bian

A subject very close to my wallet at the moment, as I am considering 'big brakes' as my next mod.

Before Donnington I upgraded my pads to Mintex 1155's and replaced my brake fluid with Silkolene Race Spec. My previous track day was done on standard (4 pots) brakes and the difference at Donnington was incredible.

Question is do I uprate my discs (I assume they are the weakest link ) or is it worth junking the lot for a brembo/ap upgrade?

[This message has been edited by Mr Bian (edited 16 January 2001).]

Danny Fisher

If you are going to do more than a few track days, I would go for the AP/Brembo kits about. You will enjoy the days so much more.

But at the end of the day it comes down to what you can afford/want to pay! (Pick which applies to you)

Remember that pad choice also has something to do with it as well. I use a semi-normal road pad, and an 83 compound pad for track days.

Dan

Pete Croney

Ah...

I've just checked my profile and realised that I stopped using that account two weeks ago.

How do I change my profile?

You can mail me at pete.croney@scoobysport.co.uk

Danny Fisher

Pete, at the top of the page, you can change it!

Dan

ruf

Pete - there's a small link marked "profile" on the top of the page. Should be straightforward for there. May be a bit hard to find but it's under the "New Topic" and "Reply" links.

Thanks for the answer on the Brembo calipers (you too Greg). I had read that on the website and I just had a hard time believing that the best caliper for an AP disc was NOT an AP caliper. I guess now I know! Out of curiosity, what is the swept area of the pad used on the Brembos?

[This message has been edited by ruf (edited 16 January 2001).]

gregh

Pete or anyone!

You say the Alcon discs are 28mm which helps reduce heat build up, is that thicker or thinner than OEM discs?

cheers,

Greg

Hoppy

Brakes! Always a great debate! And IMHO when comparing AP, Brembo and Alcon full upgrades, you might as well go by which colour you like best. They're all SO MUCH BETTER than standard OEM.

Choice of pad material is probably the single most significant performance factor at this level. Ferodo DS2000 for me, road and track.

An interesting comment on the AP vs Brembo debate is that AP are now owned by Brembo, who acquired them last June for £26m. AP will be marketed as the high performance/racing brand.

Hoppy

ruf

Hoppy - my point exactly, so shouldn't there be a badass AP 4-pot caliper out there that's better than the Brembo P4? I'm sure there is, but perhaps it's cost-prohibitive.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

On track I would say that even without obvious fade, properly uprated brakes shorten braking distances by a staggering amount.

I know others have said this, but I remain staggered by how aggressively you can brake from 3 figure speeds without triggering the ABS - I mean it feels like the tyres must come off the rims - but you just still keep slowing down.

Donington is an excellent example as there is a big stop on the back straight and then followed by the main straight pushing hard into Redgate - so much easier with confidence in your stopping power.

I posted the same question (as a cynic) about six months ago - I am now completely sold.

R

Hoppy

Ruf, I don't know the full spec of the Brembo P4 (I guess that's the one in the ScoobySport ungrade?), but anyone who claims it is 'substantially' better than AP's badass 4-pot CP5200 is dreaming. There's far more difference to be had in the pads. If you really REALLY wanna stop quick, nicely warmed disc eaters like carbon metalics or Ferodo DS3000 will do it. But we know the downsides of these pads, too.

I don't think that, on paper at least, there is a brake kit for a Scoob which beats AP's 6-potters with 330x28mm discs.

As a matter of interest, is it possible to fit an AP 32mm wide disc to a Scoob, providing it clears the wheel spokes? Would the P1 wheels do it? Calling Mr Tuckwood...? But it's academic really; this is the sort of kit that would any Touring Car team would be happy to use, or F3000 (according to AP's advice).

Rannock, couldn't agree more!

Hoppy

Hoppy

Rannock, you jokingly (I think) say that Full Monty brake upgrades feel like they're ripping the tyres off the rims! Imagine the kinetic forces at play!

If you've just had your tyres fitted, probably by those nice guys from Tyres Northampton, your tyres could easily rotate on the rims (due to fitting lubricant). If you subsequently feel steering wobble or vibration, this could be the reason - have your wheels rebalanced.

Hoppy

Stef

I found out about this at Donno on Saturday actually. Although I have AP's, I was using Mintex 1144's, at best a fast road pad.
As I braked for Redgate, I always started to brake in the same place as normal.
Suddenly though, the pads overheat dramatically and when I apply the brakes there's nothing there, causing me to overshoot the bend and end up 'partially' in the gravel .
So, even with a decent brake set-up, you need to have decent pads to get the most from them.

Stef.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Stef - and I thought you just enjoyed dancing with the little Elise

scoobyc

iTrader: (2)

This is a good thread.

Recnelty upgraded by disks and pads however ive not gone for the brembo upgrade.

It seems brembo calipers can be sourced significantly cheaper than AP's.

Anyone know the disk sizes for brembo's?

Also the Godspeed Big Brake upgrade could be very good utilising my current calipers.

Is it not possible to just buy the adapters for the 4pot calipers to fit huge disks?

Another question. the Rear.

I figure one of the greatest ways to increase braking will be to push more braking bias to the rear. I figure most car setups are designed well within limits of pushing braking force to the rear.

How will putting type r 2 pots or even 4 pots on the rear help? Larger disks on the rear must mean an increase in the braking force applied and therefore a change in the brake bias to the rear?

NXG

Front AP 6 pots with 355mm disks here. Can hit them as hard and as often as you like all day long

Std --> Brembo --> AP

dunx

iTrader: (3)

HOLY THREAD RESURECTION!

AP do a four pot rear kit, it 'aint cheap.

Most drivers don't need/couldn't cope with vastly better braking on the rear so nobody does it ! Except "AP front & rear to match, on my show car types !".

YES I'd still like some !

dunx

scoobyc

iTrader: (2)

anyone recommend me fitting the tyre R rear 2 pots instead of my sti 1 pots on the rear?

Im thinking Brembo/godspeed fronts and type R 290mm rear?

I really dont know. Just lining up my next modifications already!

Yes indeed holy thread resurrection. Seems the search only works if the post has been in the db for 7 or more years

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

I don't find the single pot rears an issue and I have AP 6 Pots upfront

The (OE) 2 pots are better though and good enough for competition use

If you thinking of getting Brembos consider using Performance Friction discs/bells/pads for a great setup

scoobyc

iTrader: (2)

well currently gone for ds2500's on stock 4 pots. gonna see how this improves braking Also rbf600 and hoses. might rig up some ducting too.