Stef

Markus.
Changing the pads and discs for better ones will help somewhat, but as you are still using two-pots and the same size discs, stopping distances won't be hugely different. They should perform more consistently and give you better feel, though to stop quicker though you really need bigger discs.
I have driven a car with the EBC upgrade and they performed really well, espcially for the cost. Not a substitute for AP's or whatever, but certainly a worthwhile upgrade.

Stef.

Marcos

Hi,

I've almost made my mind to 'slightly' upgrade my measly, but in good condition, original 2pot pads/discs on a 95 WRX 5 door (16" wheels) to the Tyres Northhampton deal of the EBC pads and discs for 250+vat. (good deal?)

Question: Would my stopping distance say from 70mph-0 (emergency stop in a straight line) on a motorway, both dry and wet shorten with this upgrade?

I know there are many other factors - I've got year old T1-S tyres etc but I'm really only going to upgrade my brakes if they are ultimately safer!

Question: Should I just save the pennies, sell the scoob sometime and get one with ABS?


My apologies if these are naive questions, it's just that I drive the car alot on the motorway with the family and I don't track race - therefore, my concerns are more biased to safety in everyday traffic conditions.

cheers

marcus

[This message has been edited by Marcos (edited 04 November 2000).]

KRIS

Whether your stopping distances shorten would be entirely up to you. ABS is an idiot proof way of mimicking cadance braking. To stop in the quickest time you need to achieve 15% tyre slip and if you can do this on a non ABS car then good luck. ABS achieves this percentage in a crude ( but sophisticated ) way. The quickest way to stop in the dry is to lock up all four wheels But that means no steering and flat spots on the tyre . Your brake upgrade will make your brakes feel better and give you more confidence But whether it shortens the distance I`m not so sure.....maybe slightly. If you lost half the weight of the car then definately.

IMHO I hate ABS as it can increase stopping distances dramatically and will also activate whilst braking hard on an uneven surface... Have a think before you spend your money.

k

[This message has been edited by KRIS (edited 04 November 2000).]

Hoppy

Stef is right. The upgrade you're contemplating won't stop you much quicker but will improve resistance to fade. However, if this isn't an issue for you, you'd be better off spending the money on upgrading to 4-pot calipers (about £200 in the For Sale section?). And always keep your tyres tip top.

I'm astonished at Kris's comment about ABS considering the context of your post. After tyres and brakes, ABS is the single most important contributor to active safety.

If you want to stop quickly and safely in the conditions you've outlined, a newer car with 4-pot calipers and ABS has got to be the way.

Hoppy

PS £250 for EBC discs and pads! That's fantastic value.

KRIS

If Marcos is a proficient cadence braker then ABS is pointless. Granted ABS does have its positive side but there are many minuses that the general public dont think about. ABS in a nut shell makes up for peoples inability to control their cars under heavy braking. You would be surprised how many accidents I see where a car has hit another up the backside under full ABS activation. The driver,not having been experienced enough to realise they can still steer ... I stick by my comments and would swap an ABS car for one without anyday.

Dave T-S

KRIS
I totally agree with you about ABS being crap.

I drove for about 20 years in a succession of old crap heaps with no ABS before the last 10 or so cars (now MY00 UK turbo)with ABS and cannot stand it. Another "driver aid" i.e. idiot proof(ish) for the masses.

And as for ABS's performance on snow and ice - yuk, fooled sensors and locked brakes. You can cadence brake an ABS car (and I do) but it's an ugly sight!!

I drive five or six weeks a year in Europe in ski resorts on snow and ice and ABS really is a disaster in these circumstances (or on any surface other than dry tarmac come to think of it).

Most ABS sensors are so poor even going over a bump whilst under fairly heavy braking on dry tarmac will set it off.

Hoppy

Kris and Dave TS. Snow and ice aside, an ABS car is infinitely safer, and foolproof. That's why it's banned in F1.

Or do you seriously contend that you can cadence brake 15 times a second when a kid runs out in front of you?

Hoppy

KRIS

If a kid runs out in front of you and you lock up all four wheels .. that may be the difference between hitting the child and ploughing straight on that extra couple of feet with the foot brake pulsing away.

I agree with you. ABS is a safety feature BUT it is no way FOOLPROOF and its that attitude that leads to misfortune and displaced confidence
k

logiclee

We all know about the side efects of ABS in Snow. Would pulling the ABS fuse disable the ABS without any other problems?

Lee

Marcos

hi all,

Just to say 'thanks' for the sensible replies, which seem to have reinforced my opinion that my simple upgrade is more for the 'feel' of the brakes.

The ABS issue is interesting - I class myself as an 'ordinary' driver who would slam on the brakes if a kid stepped across the road and try at all cost to avoid an accident - if this means ABS would save a life because I could steer around? or have more control over the car? then I see this as a very good safety feature.

Finally - surely ABS technology has moved on since the days of it coming on with any bump in the road? Or maybe not...

ta

marcus

tizard99

Here we go again.......

ABS seems to be a personal thing like it or loath it why would so many manufacturers fit or even get away with fitting a device that increases stopping distances? Motor manufacturers have to test and conform to many stringent tests before they can sell a vehicle with such a device fitted.

Infact I recall an advert run by Ford motor co. (sorry for sware'ing) for the old Mondeo where they showed a Mondeo avoiding a tractor with and without ABS and the ABS one was safer.

The ice/snow debate, this I cannot comment on other than to say some country's don't get ABS fitted to there vehicles (general manufacturers) as standard or even an option, so may be the manufacturers do know the wrongs and rights of how it performs.

KRIS are you in the police force? if so then do you have some formal training on car accidents and the behavior of a motor vehicle under different loads/stresses and road conditions? (just a general wonder)
I agree with your comment about people not being fully aware / trained in how to drive a car with ABS. Probably scares the living Sh#t out of em the first time it activates.

Trev.

[This message has been edited by tizard99 (edited 06 November 2000).]

KRIS

Perhaps Pete could answer this one as I havnt pulled the fuse to find out..BUT will you lose all the ` feel ` of the brakes i.e. they will go all wooden if you pull the fuse. I had a BMW M3 and tried to do it to that and was told without a doubt DONT DO IT !!!!

anyone tried it ???

K

Pete Croney

Kris

You say above that the quickest way to stop a car is to lock all four wheels. I assume you mean that this is quicker than activating ABS, rather than *always* the quickest stop. A car with correctly loaded up front wheels will stop in approx 60% of the distance of one skidding along, as the melting rubber acts as a lubricant between the tyre/road.

You can pull the ABS fuse in snow or gravel conditions for better braking. Its the one with two shoulders around it, to prevent accidental removal.

Mungo

KRIS - one thing that ABS can do and you can't is independently control all four wheels. You would need 4 pedals and 4 feet to even hope to keep up with it. I doubt your cadence braking can apply the brakes 5 times a second, let alone 15-20 times.
I do agree that ABs can be annoying at times - braking over a bump, etc, but in 99% of cases, I'm sure it's way safer than non-ABS.

Also - don't confuse cadence braking with threshold braking. Cadence braking is what you'd end up doing if you can't threshold brake - i.e. hold the car at a point just off skidding. This is possible on a smooth track surface, but is mission: impossible on most of our lumpy road surfaces.

TRIGGER

A big factor in all these ABS discussions is that if you are concentrating and fully in control, ABS is less important, especially if you are a very good driver. But the majority of times ABS has cut in for me, is when I have been slightly distracted and then had to stamp on the brakes without thinking. Then ABS is a god send. I think I am quite a good driver (dont we all) but I know that in an emergency I just stuff the pedal to the floor and hope - I really want to be trained better, but unless it is an automatic reaction, it wont help. I have one ABS scooby and one non-ABS scooby (RA) - guess which one I put into the back of somebody 3 weeks ago ? Yup - the non abs car !

I do love the additional feel I get from the non-ABS car, especially on the track, but for normal driving, motorway even more so, ABS is great.

Mungo

I think a lot of people become lulled into a false sense of security by ABS. They are not magical. If you don't leave enough stopping roomm (whether that's following another car or braking into a bend), ABS can't haul you to a halt in tiny distances.

And yes, ABS is worse on snow and loose surfaces, as you lose the "wedge" effect of snow/gravel building up under the locked wheels, thus aidin the braking action.

TRIGGER

I'm sure that is very true - but how often do we all drive on snow ??!!

tizard99

Good point, ABS or no ABS, if you don't leave enough room behind that car in front you will crash. But what to do if someone pulls out on you. Also Snow, common sense tells you snow is slippery so you must adjust your speed and breaking accordingly.

Trev.

Sith

When I last had plenty of snow I was driving a MK2 Escort. I was in my workplace car park and tested the brakes. Locking the brakes caused the car to slide then start to spin. However, as soon as I came of the brakes I nearly head butted the windscreen as the tyres gripped and I once again could steer.

P.

Dave T-S

TRIGGER
Five or six weeks a year on snow.....and ABS is a pig - and I still don't like it in the UK - but a personal thing

Pete C
Melting rubber - Mmmmmm - i'm trying to wear out my standard stuff ASAP so I can come spend some beer vouchers.....

[This message has been edited by Dave T-S (edited 06 November 2000).]

Erik

My previous car Fiesta XR2i was very dangerous on ice or snow due special f...ing Ford ABS but Scooby`s ABS works well. There is no problem with "no brakes" syndrom even when I`am on ice. When you want race simply pull fuse off.
Back to topic. I think that stoping power is friction coeficient and tyre compound. For example when you fit pre heated F1 brakes with tyres for road use you can`t stop much faster. Only difference is that you are able lock up wheels at max. speed and thre is no fade. Better brakes need better tyres.
I have MY98 with Sparco hoses, TarOx 40grooved discs and Mintex 1155 pads. Brakes are much better now but still thinking change it for 4pot what is /my opinion/ best option for fast road.