Michael Rally

OK

change our pads to ferodo DS2500 they will stop after 10 brakeburn.

I think that you should go for 6pot AP racing but is cost lots of money itīs better choice.


[Edited by Michael Rally - 7/4/2003 11:10:51 AM]

Andy Gough

Whats the best option to put some proper brakes on the front of my sti8? It only takes about 3 reasonable stops to get them stinking and fading. I've got 18" wheels, so something to squeeze under them would probably be best.

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

could try better pad material for a start without spending megabucks... hoses and perhaps uprated discs

Michael Rally

Hi,

look at this maybe you still can get one if is not too late

cheers
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=221484

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

Michael,

STI8's have them on already!!!

Michael Rally

Oooppsss.. Ok

Try to change the brake fluid upgrade to dot 5.1 and change or pads Ferodo DS2500 (some times the brake fluid doesnīt work so good with some pads you have to find one thatīs macth)

Cheers

FERRARINUTTER

Option 1: Upgrade pads only

Option 2: Upgrade discs and pads

Option 3: Upgrade pads, discs, braided lines and fluid

Option 4: Move to a 6 pot kit

Option 5: A mixture of the above

Option 6: Do nothing and save some money

Andy Gough

I've done the pad upgrade, different discs won't really dissapate the heat better, I was after the best upgrade large caliper and disc conversion.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ahhhhh, acutally about the discs....
if you run a set of grooved over a set of plain cast discs you wont get fade (with the correct setup).
Basically, the air boils under the pad, now as the nearest thing to the pad is the disc surface, this air on a plain cast disc isnt going anywhere and just getting hotter, invoking fade..... with a grooved disc, the air can escape though the grooves and you shouldnt get the fade
I would go for a better brake fluid, a 5.1 seems to be the easiest to get hold of though some still like the 4, braided brake lines also help and change the pads when you change the discs, you will notice considerable difference but your calipers are excellent as they are, so no need to change them

Tony

Rob D

Andy, a couple of us with STI UK's had the hoses changed to braided ones and had the fluid upgraded, this has made a massive difference in braking.
In the next couple of weeks I will be removing the old standard pads and replacing with Ferodo DS2500's, this should improve them even more.
I throughly recommend you start with the above and go from there.

Rob.

Andy Gough

I'm sorry, but the discs are not up to the job. I've gotharder pads (1155's), but the discs are too small. My disks are scored to death and blue up after only a relatively short time. The pads fade out because of the inability of the discs to get rid of the heat.

Yes, I agree, harder pads work better for longer, but they tend to overheat the diecs. Think about it, if the pads are hotter, the disc must be as well.

Grooved disks only get rid of the 'boundary layer' of gases with a organic pad. Carbon metallic pads do not generate the gases in the same way, which is one of their inherent advantages.

Braided hoses only contol the expansion of the hose as opposed to a rubber hose, and have no influence on brake fade, only pedal travel.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

So you dont think that 330mm discs are up to the job??
I'll have to take you out in my classic which "only" has 308mm discs (and mintex 1144 pads) and demonstrate that 330mm will do the job (as mine doesnt half stop quickly )
If your not happy with what you have at the moment, then change the discs to AP 330mm grooved, keep either your 1155's or go for 1144's (which i think are better for road use as they heat up quicker than the 1155's)
Also, you will still get the same effect with the gasses, no matter what type of pad material you use, you are super heating the air between the disc and pad (there's alot of it around you know ) and a grooved disc does wonders for this (i wouldnt go for a drilled/grooved combo though as these have a tendancy to crack quite easily with hard use).
The other thing you could try is seeing if your pads are glazed, this could also cause you problems

Tony

Claudius

Andy, you have the same problem as me it seems.

I am currently looking into a Movit Porsche system, available from www.movit.de. I am being told they are fade free, 2 piece discs of the highest grade cast iron, monobloc 4 or 6 pot calipers with a very big pad area.

I looked into AP Racing products, but everybody tells me that their discs are utter crap. The caliper shape looks wrong, too.

johnfelstead

Hi Andy.

You should have great results using the AP racing 330mm 4 pot or 6 pot conversion kit. The disks are not crap claudius, they are motorsport grade centrifuge vented on alloy bells.

You will get very stable braking results. I think for road use the 4 pots will be the best choice as they tend to be less grabby, if you want ultimate braking then the 6 pots will be slightly better. The 4 pots have a big advantage when it comes to pad choice and costs. I have the 4 pot 330mm kit and have never experienced any fade, and i push the car about as hard as anyone where braking is concerned.

The AP 4 pot brake pads i use are M1153 compound, these are a special compound made for the MGF cup race series, very similar to M1155 but slightly more resistance to fade. Because they are for this series MG subsidise them, so i only pay Ģ35 a set (MG are part paying for my brake pads, which is nice. )

If you want a good, reliable, well suported package you cant go wrong with AP Racing.

Gidney&Knowlesy

The KAD 330 & 372 mm kit that I have had on my car used AP discs and they have been phenomenal. I have used them with both Mintex 1155 and Pagid RS 421 pads.

Realistically I have found the Pagids to be better on braking thoug Mintex are soemwhat cheaper

Claudius

John, everybody tells me the discs are not good; the Mitsubishi WRC guy said they replace them every other stage, lots of people have them cracked, the caliper shape looks like it makes them heat up more, etc. Why do people (who know how to use brakes) warp them or crack them if they're good?

johnfelstead

so why do you think it is that AP racing is used by virtually every team in F1? AP Racing has a huge amount of experience in all forms of motor racing/rallying, if they were crap the company would have gone bancrupt years ago.

I have run AP brakes on the race and rally cars i work on since 1990, we have not had any problems with what they supplied us, ever. Maybe we size and sellect the right parts for the job and some people dont.

When did you talk to this Mitsubishi WRC guy? If they are so crap in their aplication then why are they using them? Was this a GroupN car or a WRC car?

I have no idea what you mean by the caliper looks like it makes them heat up more, what on earth are you talking about? No disrespect but that is giberish.

johnfelstead

an extract from AP Racing's web site.....

"For over 30 years, AP Racing has had one aim - to create winners on the race track.
The world of motorsport has changed out of all recognition since those early days and AP Racing have spearheaded every major development in brake and clutch technology.

From iron brakes to today's carbon/carbon. From large production based clutches to compact Ø97mm multi-disc units that transmit close to 1000 bhp. AP Racing shows the way.

In Grand Prix Racing our success started with the incredible Auto Unions and has continued uninterrupted ever since to the championship winning Williams, McLarens and Ferraris. The 2001 Canadian Grand Prix marked our 500th clutch win in 34 years. Over that period, engine power outputs have nearly doubled but our clutches have reduced in size and weight by a remarkable 113mm and 3.3kg. With over 220 brake winners AP Racing shows the way.
Over the years this success has been repeated in all other types of Single Seaters including Champ Cars, Indy Racing League, Indy Lights, F3000, F3 etc.

In Touring Cars we continue to equip winners in the ever popular DTM, the new TOCA Touring, V8 Star, and Australian V8 Supercar series

In GT & Sports Cars we continue to equip winners from Corvette, Lola, Panoz, Pilbeam, Reynard and new cars from Bentley & MG Rover.

Victory at Le Mans in 1999 was the first time a braking system had required no change of disc and pads during the 24 hour race.

In Rally we have equipped winners from Minis via Escorts and Quattros, to the Mitsubushis, Peugeots, Toyotas of today and the World Rally Cars of tomorrow.

In the latest Rally catagory Super 1600 we supply Citroen, Fiat, MG Rover, Peugeot & Renault.

AP Racing now equip vehicles in all divisions of American Stock Car Racing, from Winston Cup, Busch GN, Busch North and Craftsman Trucks to the Late Model Racing Series of ASA, All Pro and Re/Max. AP Racing now provide the solution to all braking requirements from Superspeedways to Short tracks.
The past three seasons has seen AP Racing equipping many championship winning cars. Building on these successes, AP Racing continue to develop new caliper and rotor ranges for the extensive stock car market.

On Two Wheels we have a long and successful record in Grand Prix racing and Superbikes and are now producing lightweight conversion kits to be a direct bolt-on replacement for OE Braking equipment.

And our Road Car business goes from strength to strength. We supply leading performance car manufacturers with brake and clutch components and produce a comprehensive range of bolt on replacement performance brake kits."

I would say there are more people in motorsport happy with AP Racing than unhappy with them. The road kit works incredibly well, you just need to spec the type of disks and pads to suit your driving, if you are doing track work use grooved disks, if you are doing normal road work use grooved or drilled disks. I am very hard on brakes so only use Grooved disks.

Claudius

Last year in spring when they were testing in the South of France.

I think it has to do with contracts that Mitsubishi have with AP Racing, or maybe there isnt anything better? Not sure, John; that is actually my question as well! I think they can afford as many discs as they need to have, so it doesnt really matter. What's Ģ400 to the Ralliart WRC team?

WRC car. Alistair McRae's Evo 7 (evolution 2).

I mean that in order to get the same pad area, the caliper is "longer" vertically instead of larger with a bigger and wider disc (AP Racing 330 x 32 mm 6 pot kit vs Brembo 342 x 34 mm kit for example)

Claudius

In addition to that, the AP Racing calipers are bolted together as opposed to being a monobloc construction, which is rumoured to be less efficient in applying pressure on the pads in the intended way (makes sense to me, but I dont know if that's true).

johnfelstead

I wouldnt use Brembo disks if you paid me. Do you not recall all the issues with the brembo conversions for the impreza? scoobysport had to replace all the brembo disks with AP disks because they were so poor. Scoobysport now supply AP racing disks for their brake conversions, why do you think that is? Are you sure you havnt got your knickers in a twist and are remembering things backwards?

The caliper shape has nothing to do with the heat charicteristics of the brakes or the feel you get. What really matters is the piston sizes used, bigger pads dont mean more braking force, sometimes bigger pads give less feel and less bite.

The cooling of the disk is in no way related to the caliper shape in terms of its length. The disk cools by acting as a centrifuge, sucking air from its eye and expelling it from the viens out into the wheel rim area. The cooling of the caliper/brake fluid is determined by the materials used in the caliper pistons and the pad materials used. Carbon Metalic pads pass massive amounts of heat into the fluid due to their lack of heat insulation properties. Conventional pad materials or hybrids with low contents of carbon dont cause such big issues.

Monoblock calipers of equal materials and mountings are stiffer than bolted 2 body calipers, what really makes the bigest diference though is the mounting brackets used to mount the caliper to the upright and how stiff that is, AP mounts are very stiff and use calipers with radial mounting, which is much more rigid than side mounted.

There are hundreds of specs of disks made by AP racing also, the disks used by mitsubishi wont be the same as you or i will buy, the ones your engineer was complaining about may have been specified to only last a few stages to save weight (and boy did the EVO7 need to save weight!). You just dont know. There is no way Mitsubishi would continue to use disks that didnt meet their specifications, there is no way the AP race engineer asigned to the WRC team would allow a major issue to continue, these guys are profesionals and all they do is work with brakes and tune them to the requirements of that particular car/team.

I just looked at scoobysports website and their brake conversions may be a good option to investigate also andy, they use quality brake disks (AP). I have no experience of the calipers though so others will have to fill you in there.

Andy Gough

Many thanks for your help john.

Claudius

That's interesting. Why is that? I would have thought that the longer a part of the disc in contact with the pads, the longer it would take to cool down?

Although I suppose that the cooling of the disc that you mention is much more important a factor than this, but then again, as you said yourself, every little bit counts.

Again, as you said previously, people dont always think about everything. I, for once, neglected the mounting brackets. Very good point!

Well, strictly speaking you are right, I dont know; but then again, why would he say the discs are not that good when he specified them and they use up unevenly / crack? They didnt look good at all TBH.

In theory, I would agree with that. In practice, however, it looks like they were dissatisfied with the discs. Or maybe they just cost them a fortune, not sure. Again, I guess their budgets allow them to buy whatever amount of discs is necessary. And there are also the contracts they have, right? They could not just disregard them, could they? Let's see who they end up using for brakes in their next WRC adventure.

Claudius

Oh, btw, I did not mean Brembo discs, but the two piece discs as used on Movit kits www.movit.de They're by SHW http://www.shw.de/englisch/21_automo...bremsschei.htm

[Edited by Claudius - 7/7/2003 10:18:47 PM]

jerry hong

How about having a look at our brakes?
www.twrracing.com

The site is getting re-wroked, so pm me if you ahve any questions


thanks,
Jerry

Mike Tuckwood

OK, as John so extensively points out, AP Racing are the unquestioned leaders in competition brake (and clutch) kit development and manufacture.

So good that after years of frustration of not being able to gain ground on them, that Brembo bought them!

We have been working with APR directly for a long while now and have managed to generate 2 NEW brake kits, these use larger diameter and wider disc as the 330mm disc was as big as could be achieved on that DT.

The new kits also have new 7040 range calipers (RED) and come with 355mm discs (18" wheel) and 362mm discs (19" wheel).

The main reasons for developing the kits were primarily cosmetic, but also allowed APR to develop some new (larger) calipers which are also slightly cheaper.


Pictures to follow on our web site imminantly.


Mike.
Scooby Mania

nellie

Iv got a STI7,and i chabged my discs all round to DBA Gold,drilled and grooved,goodridge hoses and DS2500s the difference is really noticeable,no fade at all,stops quicker,firmer pedal,discs and hoses from JW Racing well worth it,the Brembo calipers are more than up for the job.Not to expensive for these upgrades either.

lesmess

Just fitted pagid 8 grooved disks and RS4.2 pads along with goodridge hoses and dot 5.1 fluid to my bog std MY01 WRX. The diffrence on braking is staggering. Dont know if it would help on the STI Ģ400 all in was a great price for the level of performance gained.

Kippax

cladius,

the monoblock may be more dificult to prize open than the AP's restrained only by the bolts. but, the bolts on the AP's will be engineered to withstand more tensile stress than can be applied by the footpedal anyway. therefore, the deflection of the caliper is of no concern in either the MOVIT or the AP case.

the pressure on the disc = force applied/pad area. using a larger pads area doesnt always mean better braking.

far more important are bigger diameter disc with larger braking torque for longer due to increased heat loss.

i use the 4-pot AP with 330mm AP grooved discs and they are top, no doubt.

just because you've heard a story that may or may not be true, doesn't mean AP brake kits are bobbins. i remember your similar comments about the leda B's.

stuart.