Lightest 17's?
03 February 2003, 06:50 AM
#5
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Entry to the world of light (and genuinely strong) wheels ain't cheap tho 
Lotsa styles here, top quality stuff:
http://rayswheels.co.jp/menu/wheel.html
Dunno how much is available in the UK though.
Lotsa styles here, top quality stuff:http://rayswheels.co.jp/menu/wheel.html
Dunno how much is available in the UK though.
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03 February 2003, 12:41 PM
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I have a set of pro race ones on their way to me now...7kg each. They are the same wheels as used by alfa BTCC cars, and have to be specially machined for your car, so quite exclusive. Some nice finishes too, check out here
Be aware that as they are specially machined there is a wait while they do so...currently 2 weeks and counting but expecting them any day now!!!
Bear in mind that for every kilo you save on the wheels, you are actually saving many kilos on the chassis due to the difference between 'sprung' and 'unsprung' weight, so makes a marked difference to all aspects of handling.
Be aware that as they are specially machined there is a wait while they do so...currently 2 weeks and counting but expecting them any day now!!!
Bear in mind that for every kilo you save on the wheels, you are actually saving many kilos on the chassis due to the difference between 'sprung' and 'unsprung' weight, so makes a marked difference to all aspects of handling.
04 February 2003, 12:29 PM
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I can mail you the pics.
You can have it in titan or silver.
I would uploade them but the size is 900kb, i can´t figuer out to resize them!!.
Skassa
You can have it in titan or silver.
I would uploade them but the size is 900kb, i can´t figuer out to resize them!!.
Skassa
05 February 2003, 08:17 AM
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CarMan, lower usprung weight is always good, but you'll not be able to notice any improvement by just losing a couple of kilos on the wheels. It's a relatively tiny amount.
It's quite a difference!
05 February 2003, 08:25 AM
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Here's a little info on the previous K1 wheel, mixed opinions it seems:
http://www.miata.net/products/wheels/kosei.html
http://www.miata.net/products/wheels/kosei.html
05 February 2003, 11:34 AM
#23
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Hoppy - i beg to differ. Because of the weight equation through the springs, a difference of 1 kilo sprung = over 10kg unsprung (ie on the chassis) so a kilo makes a HUGE difference to steering feel, braking, acceleration and general handling performance.
ed
ed
05 February 2003, 12:19 PM
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FM, two Radius R3s after hitting a piece of wood. One more I don't know how but there was vibration from the rear and when I got it checked, suspecting a lost balance weight, the thing was buckled. I managed to get this one straightened, though.
Two more wheels, my track day wheels, also slightly buckled but now fixed. I don't know how, but going sideways down Craner Curves probably didn't help I can't remember their brand, no longer imported I think, but cost £125 each.
Richard.
Two more wheels, my track day wheels, also slightly buckled but now fixed. I don't know how, but going sideways down Craner Curves probably didn't help
I can't remember their brand, no longer imported I think, but cost £125 each.Richard.
05 February 2003, 02:23 PM
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Clauduis/Ed, sorry, didn't mean to ignore you.
But you're both dreaming
I have three sets of wheels/tyres, one set being 2.5kg lighter per corner than the others. Buggered if I can feel anything between them. Maybe it's me
1) Pete Croney recently guestimated that there was around 50Kg hanging off each corner, so a couple of Kgs is **** all. Okay, wheels are stuck right out there, exerting maximum leverage etc, but c'mon let's not kid ourselves.
2) Car more "willing to rev"? Yes, I know the argument but if you could actually measure it, it's probably 1/10th sec 0-100mph. Bearing in mind how important 0-60 etc is in marketing terms, why don't manufacturers put lightweight wheels on their performance models? In fact, they put bigger wheels and tyres on them which are almost invariably heavier.
3) There's so much going on between the tyre compound and road surface interface, it will mask all other small changes.
Discuss
Richard.
But you're both dreaming
I have three sets of wheels/tyres, one set being 2.5kg lighter per corner than the others. Buggered if I can feel anything between them. Maybe it's me
1) Pete Croney recently guestimated that there was around 50Kg hanging off each corner, so a couple of Kgs is **** all. Okay, wheels are stuck right out there, exerting maximum leverage etc, but c'mon let's not kid ourselves.
2) Car more "willing to rev"? Yes, I know the argument but if you could actually measure it, it's probably 1/10th sec 0-100mph. Bearing in mind how important 0-60 etc is in marketing terms, why don't manufacturers put lightweight wheels on their performance models? In fact, they put bigger wheels and tyres on them which are almost invariably heavier.
3) There's so much going on between the tyre compound and road surface interface, it will mask all other small changes.
Discuss
Richard.
05 February 2003, 02:34 PM
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Richard - ok the facts
unsprung weight is crucial to handling feel and performance.
Manufacturers don't fit lightweigh parts cos the 'average punter' don't need em, they are (generally) expensive and (generally) more prone to wear and breakage.
Motorsport manufacturers however, do fit them. The pro race 1's I'm fitting are used by the Alfa BTCC team.
Due to the tension in the springs, kg of sprung weight = roughly 10 - 15kg of unsprung, so 2kg off the wheels = **** loads off the chassis.
Its very hard and expensive to shed kilo's off the unsprung weight, but people work hard to do this because of the difference it makes. Why do you think people buy expensive alu brake kits etc?
all just IMHO of course
unsprung weight is crucial to handling feel and performance.
Manufacturers don't fit lightweigh parts cos the 'average punter' don't need em, they are (generally) expensive and (generally) more prone to wear and breakage.
Motorsport manufacturers however, do fit them. The pro race 1's I'm fitting are used by the Alfa BTCC team.
Due to the tension in the springs, kg of sprung weight = roughly 10 - 15kg of unsprung, so 2kg off the wheels = **** loads off the chassis.
Its very hard and expensive to shed kilo's off the unsprung weight, but people work hard to do this because of the difference it makes. Why do you think people buy expensive alu brake kits etc?
all just IMHO of course
05 February 2003, 03:19 PM
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Ed, I don't disagree that unsprung weight is important, it's just how relatively important it is. And it's more important in rallying than it is for circuit racing or a road car running on relatively smooth surfaces.
I still say that if it was such an important performance factor, many more performance car makers would fit lighter wheels and alloy calipers, the latter probably offering more weight saving than the wheels? Maybe.
Look at Subaru? What is the weight of STi7/8 wheels, tyres and calipers compared to the last of the Classic MY00? I would guess (and it is only a guess that we're looking at 3Kgs heavier on each front wheel. And the new-shape cars are claimed to handle better... But I'm cheating a bit here as the new car is also heavier overall so, relatively speaking the unsprung/sprung weight ratio remains about the same.
And no, you don't fit alloy calipers to save weight. You do it to control heat while the weight saving comes as a nice bonus.
IMHO
Richard.
PS Just noticed how many times I said "relatively". I think that's the whole question debate really.
I still say that if it was such an important performance factor, many more performance car makers would fit lighter wheels and alloy calipers, the latter probably offering more weight saving than the wheels? Maybe.
Look at Subaru? What is the weight of STi7/8 wheels, tyres and calipers compared to the last of the Classic MY00? I would guess (and it is only a guess
that we're looking at 3Kgs heavier on each front wheel. And the new-shape cars are claimed to handle better... But I'm cheating a bit here as the new car is also heavier overall so, relatively speaking the unsprung/sprung weight ratio remains about the same.And no, you don't fit alloy calipers to save weight. You do it to control heat while the weight saving comes as a nice bonus.
IMHO
Richard.
PS Just noticed how many times I said "relatively". I think that's the whole question debate really.
05 February 2003, 03:47 PM
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Ok, Hoppy, I hope you have a flaming suit, or you'll get burnt Read on LOL
- I cant see how going sideways at "craner curve" would bend your wheels. I think you're just looking for respect and are lucky that you didnt lose that unwanted drift
- how unimportant you feel unsprung weight is says even more about your ability to feel and drive cars
- I'll get you a set of heavy wheels and tyres and we go for a drive, how about that?
Laters
C
Read on LOL- I cant see how going sideways at "craner curve" would bend your wheels. I think you're just looking for respect and are lucky that you didnt lose that unwanted drift
- how unimportant you feel unsprung weight is says even more about your ability to feel and drive cars
- I'll get you a set of heavy wheels and tyres and we go for a drive, how about that?
Laters
C
06 February 2003, 02:11 AM
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Claudius, you old trollope
Have you ever been down Craner Curves sideways? If you have like me (twice) you'll know that I was on the fooking grass (very bumpy) for about 50 metres at 100mph. I was lucky: some people have rolled it here. This is not a boast, but a confession. I don't think the car enjoyed it
I do not deny for one second that lower unsprung weight is beneficial. What I'm saying that in real terms on a Scoob it's very hard, ie very expensive, to make significant improvements.
I don't want to try your heavy wheels, thank you. But if you will, please take a stock performance car of your choice, and give me your 0-60mph time (okay 0-100kph if you must). Then fit your ideal choice of wheel tyre combination and measure the difference.
If the latter time is legitimately more than 1/10th sec better, you've proved me wrong and I will never argue with you again. Promise.
At least until the next time
Richard.
Have you ever been down Craner Curves sideways? If you have like me (twice) you'll know that I was on the fooking grass (very bumpy) for about 50 metres at 100mph. I was lucky: some people have rolled it here. This is not a boast, but a confession. I don't think the car enjoyed it
I do not deny for one second that lower unsprung weight is beneficial. What I'm saying that in real terms on a Scoob it's very hard, ie very expensive, to make significant improvements.
I don't want to try your heavy wheels, thank you. But if you will, please take a stock performance car of your choice, and give me your 0-60mph time (okay 0-100kph if you must). Then fit your ideal choice of wheel tyre combination and measure the difference.
If the latter time is legitimately more than 1/10th sec better, you've proved me wrong and I will never argue with you again. Promise.
At least until the next time
Richard.