JohnMcC

Hi guys and girls, hopefully somebody can offer me some advice or at least point me in the right direction.

My girlfriend bought me a voucher for a trackday with BookaTrack, so I'm just getting round to sorting it out but want to make sure I do everything right. Ive done a search and am working through some of the things I have found, but still have plenty of things on my mind so thought I would ask on here - plus the search facility was driving me nuts!!!. For now I wont bore you with all my questions - but if I cant find out myself I will be back at a later date!!

Firstly venue - I have my eye on Elvington (despite being in the SE my girlfriend works up in Leeds so I may do it up there) largely because it is an airfield day which I presume will be good for an amatuer like myself, what with all that run off area - I would love to do it on a picturesque circuit but I think the safety of my car, myself and others is a priority at this stage!

Is Elvington a good place to start - or does anyone think that I should look at other BookaTrack venues? One problem I can see from looking on the net that the surface is a bit dodgy in places and hard on tyres - but I guess that must be expected on any airfield as it isnt being used for its intended purpose.

On that note, they say they sell tyres but surely thats to get you home as they wont be scrubbed in etc....I've got 13k on mine so I doubt they will last another month and a track day so I guess I will have to get some tyres beforehand and run them in.

The other main thing I want to know at this stage is what to do and take. I have found several trackday sites and have looked at their FAQs, but what I want to know is there anything that you may not necessarily need but that trackday veterens have found to be very useful? Basically, any tips or tricks that will protect things, make things more comfortable or whatever.

Another thing is insurance. I know I do not have to have it, but for piece of mind I would like to be covered for the day. BookaTrack has a link to somebody, but what i want to know is what do they take into account to come up with the price, and what sort of price would I be looking at? Is it calculated in a similar way to normal insurance, taking into account age, car etc? Does it depend on where you are doing the day or whether you have done it before? Any help would be appreciated and, although I havent got that far yet, any other suggestions about where to shop for this would be great. (Out of interest, I'm 25, MY03 WRX).

I have loads of questions as you can imagine - a wee bit nervous that I'll embasrass byself and have a mare - but I think I have gone on far too long already.

Many thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer, it'll be much appreciated.

Regards,

John



[Edited by JohnMcC - 1/27/2004 1:05:22 AM]

JohnMcC

Sorry everyone - my post above is very long and rambling - my apologies!!!.

Any help would be appreciated though.

Fat Boy

Someone will look at this in the morning and post detailed advice I'm sure.

Quick run through though:

Airfields Ok, but can be tough on tyres and bodywork due to flying gravel. Bedford is a perfect beginners track.

Old tyres are perfect, you don't want new ones as you'd root them. Old tyres with about 1-2 mm ie legal minimum is about right. Somewhere smooth like bedford they'll last the whole day and the drive home. Just pump them up about 5psi more than standard all round.

Make sure all fluids are up to levels and take spare oil, brake fluid, tape for head lamps etc, and a spare set of front brake pads if you have them.

Warm the car up with gradually increasing pace, watch your mirrors, then 4-7 hard laps, then 1-2 laps cooing down (try not to use the brakes at all)into the pits, find a flat bit, stop leaving the engine running/ bonnet open, no handbrake on and don't rest your foot on the brake as the temps will warp the discs and boil the fluid. Give it a few minutes to cool down before switching off.

Insurance Eggar Lawson/ Competition Car Insurance will provide cover - typically 10 grand body work cover for circa £100 - doesn't cover the oily bits. Some road policies cover track days - eg Liverpool and Victoria.

Hope that helps

JohnMcC

Cheers for your help.

I hadnt thought about an airfield being tough on the bodywork...hmmmm Do you think it may be worth investing in some mud flaps? (I was toying with the idea anyway) I know that wont stop debris from other vehicles (do doubt overtaking me regularly, lol) and it wont stop everything from my car, but it may help a little?

I guess thats logical with the tyres - I will measure the exact depth when I get a chance to see how much I have left - think I should have plenty to meet your recommendations. And I guess, if they are shot I can buy some new ones (dont fancy a trip down the M1 with no tread! - illegal but more importantly dangerous!!). In fact, I guess what I should do is if I think the track day will be the absolute end of the tyres I should get some new ones in preparation (so that I get a good price) and then I can get them put on the next day or something.

Thanks for the info with regard to fluids, cooling and insurance too. My brake pads are on their way out now so I should have a newish, bedded in set on by then.

Lol, this could get expensive - great present, lol. Tyres, pads, oil, helmet, insurance etc...lol Be worth it though I bet!! Good job I gave up smoking for new year!!! That should ease the pain a little!!!

Thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated.

John

[Edited by JohnMcC - 1/27/2004 2:11:29 AM]

Fat Boy

Most damage is from other people throwing up stones although I do have those mini flaps on my P1.

If the tyres are almost bald, and you increase the pressure ( say 40 front 38 rear)on the day, then they will easily last the day. i run various old tyres on track as well as slicks and have some 1-2 mm toyos or S02's that have done 5 or 6 track days, and would still (marginally) be legal.If it's wet you won't do any damage at all - I use my ordinary road tyres if it's chucking it down.

Sensible to have a newish set of pads, thin ones will pass all the heat straight into the caliper and will get rooted very quickly.

Change oil after every track day and brake fluid every 2-3 track days even if it hasn't boiled or 6 mths.

Have fun

JohnMcC

Cheers for your help again

Had a look at my tyres today and there is plenty of tread left at the moment. Did have a proper depth guage somewhere but couldnt find it, so used the 50p/2p guess-timate method and there was loads more than it looked with the naked eye - just depends when I book the track day now.

Do you have separate trackday wheels or do you just chop and change the tyres? Because if you do it may make sense for me to do the track day on these, get a new set put on and keep the worn ones for another session maybe?


I was looking at flaps more from a styling point of view, but with regard to the debris I guess every little helps. I was thinking earlier, I guess on one hand airfield days are better because I assume there is more room for people to give each other a wide berth - but on the other hand the surface is poorer so throws up more stuff.

If you dont mind I have one other area at the moment where I wouldnt mind some advise from yourself - or anyone. I know the implications with regard to the warranty - but I'm not the kind of guy to be dishonest so if I know Ive broken something by doing something that isnt covered, I wont kick up a fuss.

But should I not tell my dealer? I mean, they will spot that Ive started driving a hell of a lot harder if I'm going through all these fluids, pads and so on all of a sudden?

They seem great so far and I think they would be realistic about track days - when I had a problem a little bit back with the brakes (turns out it was just a stone) the guy asked if I had tracked it. I hadnt so denied it furiously and his response suggested that that wasnt the issue, he just wanted to know whether they had been under heavy use. Hes a young guy, hes not an a-hole and Ive been very pleased with their service so far. I know dealers are not the cheapest but I do like to use the dealers for most things on a new car, even the basics (I dont have the equipment, facilities or space to do much myself).

What do you reckon? Keep it hush hush or mention it? I just want to keep my scoob in the best wroking order at the end of the day. I know from my experience with VWs that in reality that would quite often mean not taking it to the dealer!! But as I said, I'm happy with them (plus wouldnt know who else to trust in the area!!).

Cheers once again for your help.

John

[Edited by JohnMcC - 1/28/2004 12:06:00 AM]

JohnMcC

Sorry, only me again

Unfortunately BookaTrack dont 'do' Bedford.

Do you think Elvington will be good or should I look at other options? I have been on a track before on a race experience jobby - went round in a 3 series and then a single seater - so not an absolute novice.

Here are a selection some of the other options that I could probably get to:

Brands Hatch Indy
Bruntingthorpe
Croft Circuit
Goodwood
Mallory Park
Oulton Park etc........


Or do you reckon, as a relative beginner, stick to Elvington?

Really sorry for all these questions - thanks for all your help!! Maybe someone else will chip in for these ones

Regards,

John



[Edited by JohnMcC - 1/28/2004 12:20:41 AM]

Fat Boy

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered where I went as the trick is to build up to speed gradually, and don't just go out and try to take Paddock Hill/ Craner curves/etc flat or outbrake anyone into anywhere.

If you want to find your limits, or the car's limits (often two very different things)then an airfield day with someone like Don Palmer is the way to go. Use the bookatrack to gain experience of the whole trackday thing, without going crazy, but go to Don's National Performance Academy to learn more in one day than you would learn in 10 years of track days.It's doesn't seem cheap at £300ish each for 3 people, but versus trackdays at 150-400 a pop it's good value. He uses Bruntingthorpe and Millbrook.All the rest are just pretenders, unless Jackie Stewart is free that day...

If I remember correctly, my first track day in the P1 was in January at Brands Indy in sleet/heavy rain, which was good sideways fun, but then I used to rally about 20 odd years ago...

[Edited by Fat Boy - 1/28/2004 10:25:00 AM]

Silverback@work

A good way to start would be to do an airfield day (or two) before venturing out onto a 'proper' circuit (unless you can book Bedford Autodrome). Less things to hit, plenty of run off, good instructors.

Following that you can try and put what you've learnt into practice at a 'proper' circuit like Brands, Snetterton etc.

If you can afford it, uprated pads (at the very least) are a good idea, as are a spare set of alloys - brake dust on circuits tends to bite into the lacquer of your alloys, so it's good to have a set that you don't mind abusing, whilst still maintaining a normal 'road' set (with legal tyres on of course).

Me? I started off with a few airfield track days with Motorsport Events, also did their 1st Stage Driver Training Day (very good) and I'm following this up with Brands Hatch this Friday and Bedford Autodrome with SIDC on the 7th Feb.

Expenditure for 'kit' so far...

Helmet
Gloves
Big Brake Kit
Spare set of Alloys
1 complete set of new Goodyear F1 tyres (after the original bridgestones got 'destroyed')
2 x set of new pagid pads (with new fluid and brake system drain)


I guess this 'sport' is as cheap or expensive as you want to make it...if you continually push your car to the limits while on track (and a few times beyond) the costs go up.

One final note - beware, track days can be addictive!

JohnMcC

Thanks for your help again Fat Boy , and thank you for your input too silverback . Don't worry, I'll lay off the questions for a little bit now

Yeah, I'll probably do Elvington for a taster - never know I might hate it

I'm not going to go overboard with the cost this time if I can help it - I am going to need discs at some point and was going to try something different anyway, but should be able to make the tyres last - although I will need some at some point.

I obviously wont buy a new set of wheels for my first track day - having said that I do have the standard 17s out in the shed with basically new rubber on them - but on the other hand I assume it will be grippier and probably better on the wider (I think) and stickier 18s that Ive got?

I think I can borrow/hire a helmet too - although had a look at a coupld of websites and they arent that extortionate (sp?) - who would have thought that a few bits of fancy plastic in the shape of mud flaps would be several times more expensive than a helmet!!

As it will be my first time I doubt the wear and tear will be too excessive (touch wood) so hopefully I should get away relatively lightly!!!


Just one thing that neither of you picked up on re: the dealer. I dont mean to just pitch up and tell them I'm going on a track day but when/if I get them to do some work with relation to the track day, should I pretend I just had a barnstorming time around the M25 or just tell them what the deal is? Like I said, I dont think they would get particularly arsy about it and I would feel a bit more comfortable with them knowing whats in store for the car or what it has just experienced, so they can get it up to speed.


That will be my last question on the matter.....for a while at least......

Thanks agains for all your help on this - I now feel like Ive got a pretty good idea of what preparation needs to be done and what I should be getting out of the day.

John

[Edited by JohnMcC - 1/28/2004 2:24:32 PM]

**GOD**

Fat Boy here.

Don't tell the dealer, no point.

Go on SIDC track days such the current one at Bedford. Free fully qualified instructors - Rob Mac is very good. Also used to have Tyres Northampton there, not sure if they still attend but if they do then Mark or Elvis can sort all your issues , change your tyres, brake pads, sell you new tyres at the end of the day, etc

TonyG

When you get there, listen to everything that's said in the briefing, especially about overtaking and warning flags. Don't be afraid to ask questions, both of the other drivers and the organisers. When you go out on the track for that first lap, be careful and build up slowly. Like anything else, you have to learn to 'walk before you can run'.
One thing no-one else has mentioned - when you leave the circuit, it's easy to forget you're back on public roads, so watch your driving/speed for the first few miles. It doesn't happen very often, but I did once see a mobile speedtrap set up not too far from a circuit... you don't want to spoil the day by getting points on your licence.

JohnMcC

Thanks very much again Fat Boy

I think once Ive used this voucher thing Ive got I will try and attend the events that you mention and get a bit more involved in the scooby crowd. That certainly sounds good about Tyres Northampton, if (as you say) they still do it. I think I remember reading praise about them on past track days.

Thanks as well Tony - thats good advice - I do plan to take it easy and learn as much as possible - hopefully I'll have some fun too but everyone has to start somewhere.

Good advise about leaving the circuit too - it does not surprise me in the slightest that they may try and catch people leaving [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]. And I can only imagine what its like having to think 'hold on a second, its not a track anymore!!!'. I mean, I have done a track experience thing before when it was difficult enough to calm down afterwards - but that wasnt in my own car!!


Thanks everyone that has helped out so far. I was initially excited about this but then the doubts and questions creeped in. But I have had most of what is on my mind answered and I kind of know what the score is more or less now.

Thanks again - its the last you'll here from me on the subject for a little while.....I promise

regards

John

RRH

John,

I destroyed a new set of road tyres at Elvington in three hours, of which one hour was wet, a couple of weeks ago.

I really cannot emphasise enough how heavy it is on tyres m8.

Elvington will eat a set of worn tyres through to with wires just as you start to enjoy it.

Try Croft for your first day, or the cost will put you off for life. Excellent circuit, not heavy on tyres, loads of run off with little to hit.

simon

RRH

I didn't intentionally contradict anyone in my last post as all the advice is good. Elvington's a killer tho

For brakes on a MY03, stick with standard disks for now and get some mintex 1155 pads.

I was keeping up with a sensibly (as opposed to 'rapidly') driven GT3 and M5 all day, and past them both in the wet.

I have APs on the track car, and was very surprised how the mintex and standard pads stood up at Elvington- loads of high speed straights and heavy braking from 120+ish, didn't get any fade whatsoever.

ps. tyres were dangerously illegal after the three hours- took a gentle drive home at 3pm

JohnMcC

My first post in the new look Scoobynet.....oooooohhhh!!!!

Cheers for that Simon - Unfortunately I dont think I am going to be able to make it to Croft this time - tyre wear aside, Elvington is my best option really on most fronts. It is also an open pit lane, which I would imagine would be quite good, as I can take it easy and come and go more or less as I please.

You have obviously tracked before - the tyre wear at Elvington, were you pushing the car really hard most of the day? Just that I imagine that I will be quite a bit easier on the car as it is my first track session. Having said that, I guess I should budget for the worst case scenario - ie heavy wear. And as its an open pit lane I might see a lot of track time I guess.....hhmmmm.....

I'm gonna check out my options again re:which track to go to and when. I dont want to hold out too long though as a) I wanna do it asap and b) if I do do it and like it I am going to need some time to recoup some funds to do it again

Cheers for your advise and Ill go away and have a little think about things,

Cheers again guys,

John

ADP

Its good to ask these questions now rather than learning on the spot or after its too late.

Airfields are OK, hard on tyres, hard on brakes but good fun all the same and you got less chance of pranging the car. Remember though you have to drive home and driving home on slicks so to speak may not be a great idea, esp if the law catch up with you

Like someone else says, make sure your fluids are good, brake pads good enough and the car is in good order. The hardcore might do oil changes either side of track days.

Most places let you hire lids, but Id buy your own if I were you.

If you can, get some pro instruction unless you are already confident, which it doesnt sound like you are. Also passengering with someone else is all good(assuming they have some reasonable experience), as is taking a good driver round in your passenger seat - Ive passengered with lots of people to give out sound advice.

As for insurance? Personally on an airfield I wouldnt bother, on a track well maybe first time out. Its a personal preference, you pays your money and takes your choices. I have a "trackday car" so am not worried, prior to that I insured once, but then realised its far more about driving within your limits............however even if you do this, **** can happen ie brake failure or something......erm its a very debatable point and people have different opinions. Can you afford to repair say 7/8000 £ worth of damage? I doubt it, but you probably have £80 in your pocket for a bit of insurance. But like I say on an airfield I doubt even so Id bother.

The main thing is to enjoy it, warm up the car, build up your speed gradually - dont worry if XR2 boy comes steaming past its not a race and besides it could be damon hill behind the wheel, you never know who is in what car - so dont chase people or get sucked into silly things. Do a few warm down laps - consider doing the last lap without using the brakes - this allows them to cool off nicely - not possible on all circuits. Dont park up with the handbrake on either! Oh and fill up with optimax, youll need it HAve a good time.

Andy

JohnMcC

Cheers for the tips Andy.


You are right - its better to make a nuisance of myself now , in an effort to avoid any problems in the future.

On the confidence/instruction thing I think they do have something in that capacity which I will definitely do. As for my own confidence - I wouldnt say that I lack it on the actual driving front, although I do know that there will be far superior drivers there on the day!! I can live with that though and I know that this is a learning experience. Where I lack the confidence really is in the preparation and maintenance of my car. I'm not the most mechanically minded person in the first place, and the Scoob is the first performance car that I have owned. But I'm learning a lot here and am getting the hang of it now.

I'm also just uncertain of how these things are run and what to expect. This is making me a little nervous and why I am asking all these questions. As you say, its better that I know now to consider what the condition of, say, my brakes are, than to do 5 laps and realise my brakes are gone on the day.

On the subject of helmets, do you recommend that I get my own because the others will be grotty, and so that I can get the right size etc..., or are there other reasons? I was considering buying one but then thought I would hire this time and see how I go - if I want to do more (which I expect and hope I will ) I can then buy one.

I know helmets are incredibly important and an area where I imagine the advice is to buy the best I can afford. In a car I imagine you only need a basic open faced lid - is there any point in paying over the odds? Is the extra just for fancy features that I wouldnt need, or is there actually a lot of difference in the protection they offer? I have seen basic ones for £70 - are these not worth it? To be honest, I imagine that is the type that would be available for hire anyway.

I think I will probably go with insurance this time, and again, reasses it afterwards.

Tyres are one of my big concerns. The trackday I'm considering is about a month away. I have just measured my tread and by my reckoning there is around 4 mm all round. If I havent already by then anyway, judging by Simon's post I imagine that Elvington will well and truly finish them off. But then again, I know that new tyres are far from ideal on track either.

What should I do in that situation? I'm inclined to get some new boots on the car pretty sharpish along with new pads, and get them all run in for a bit. I will be up in Leeds at least once before then, and then in Leeds that weekend to go over to Elvington. Thats 1000 miles that they will have on them, plus anything from another couple of hundred upwards. Will the tyres still be 'too new' in that case?

Cheers for your help again Andy and everyone. LOL, , the questions just keep coming

John

ADP

The only reason I say get your own lid is because: 1- I dont like sharing hire lids, yuk, 2 - I have a big head so they dont fit me well, 3 - I figure if you use it more than a few times its paid for itself, 4 - Its my head, I want to protect it as best as possible. Also I went for one with full chin protection, that way I can compete/drive open top cars such as caterhams safely - if I wanted too in the future.

As for tyres, 2 sets of wheels is handy. One of my friends finished his tyres off so much they were literally bald, he went home courtesy of the AA

And as it happens, I have a set of my2001 classic 16 inch wheels with bridgestones on. They dont have that much tread left, probably enough for a track day but theyll be shot by then. Wheels in good nick, almost no kerbing and they are cheap to re tread with say avons or something. Im looking to get rid of them as I dont have a scoob any more and they are taking up room in my garage. If your interested Ill get some pics for ya, Im looking for £80 for all 4, thats 20 squid a corner. - Im based in Southampton. And they fit over bugeye callipers/discs.

As for brakes, Id get em done if they are low. I tried to do a track day to finish off some pads, but there just wasnt enough, they faded after 4 or 5 laps and then when I came in they were smoking like a b1tch. Basically, too much heat going into too little pad, it ruined the day, I was pretty annoyed.

ADP

Oh and generallly the day goes something like:

Turn up 8/9am ish, yawn

park up, find a pit/garage depending on location

look round the car park, eye up the toys

get tea and bacon roll

sign on

drivers briefing

arm bands/hire helmets issued etc

go go go - well depends if its open pit or if you sign up for nov/inter/exp group

lunch

more fun

JohnMcC

Andy, thats kind of my worry (what you said about brakes) - not that I'll be nervous or anything but that my brakes or tyres will be shot before Ive had a chance to have a go.

Ive worked out that in 14k miles Ive done 4mm of my tread, assuming there was circa 8mm to begin with, as there is roughly 4mm left all round (this is a pretty rough guess - I have measured but it was far from scientific, lol . and as we are talking about such a small unit I guess that isnt a great thing!! . But I will make sure before I take any action, lol). Most of that has been fairly sedate - at least in terms of the capabilities of the car. I have pushed at times but nothing like I would on track.

Between now and the track day ( a month - although I may miss out on this one as it is filling up fast - if I do that would mean it will be in two months time) I am gonna do another at least 1500 - 2000 miles. Mostly motorway, but some town and spirited driving too.

Given the harshness of Elvington on tyres I think some new ones are definitely needed. If I can get some new ones on and put those miles on them hopefully they would be scrubbed in enough to perfrom well - they dont need to be at optimum perfromance as I wont be, lol - but by the same token there would be little point in learning how to drive on track with tyres that are making it difficult.

Ideally at some point I would like a 2nd set of track day wheels. I actually have my standard 17s but ive almost sold them - the way I see it they are like new so may as well get some cash for them and try and save on some used track ones.

On that note.... Thanks for the offer of the wheels, I will definitely consider it. 16s on a MY03 may look a little odd - dont people usually buy bigger alloys - not that that would be the point with them though. Seriously, I presume the rolling radius would be pretty similar to the standard 17s, and still not a million miles away from the 18s I have? ( I know due to the different profiles it should be the same but in reality they do get slightly bigger as you go up - dont they...?) Is the width comparable? And how much of an adverse effect would the higher profile tyres have?

Chhers for the offer and I'll let you know if I'm interested.

Brakes have started to get a little noisy in the last couple of days and that always makes me concerned. I dont have the equipment or space to get the wheel off and the pads out myself etc...so I am gonna get someone to have a quick look asap and if so order some uprated ones. The way I see it it would be similar to the tyres - get them on asap so I can cover those miles to bed them in.

lol, cheers for the run down of a typical day too - sounds good