What do you run for coilovers, dampers, springs etc?
13 January 2011, 06:52 PM
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What do you run for coilovers, dampers, springs etc?
Hi my name is Jason and I live in a suburb of Vancouver, Canada. We have an automotive shop specializing in suspension, brakes, steering and we also resell/install performance suspension and brake components. I'am not here to market ourselves but rather to gather information from a forum that is well established and where Subaru has been a performance brand since the early 90's. We too have had Subaru for awhile on our shore but as a brand it wasn't recognized until the introduction of the GD bug-eye.
I was just wondering what suspension products seem to be the most popular in your area. Over here(N.America) we are getting inundated with Chinese manufactured(BC Racing, Megan, all the same etc) systems that seem to be taking over the market because of their pricing(low, very low) but in most cases their quality is very suspect. I know vendors here market these systems to make a living and in most cases do to survive especially after the market collapse in the USA.
Are KW, Ohlin, AST, Koni basically first line brands marketed well? Are they priced out of most enthusiests budget?
What other brands are available for additional suspension upgrades? Whiteline I see has a presence which is very large in N.A.
thank you,
Jason
I was just wondering what suspension products seem to be the most popular in your area. Over here(N.America) we are getting inundated with Chinese manufactured(BC Racing, Megan, all the same etc) systems that seem to be taking over the market because of their pricing(low, very low) but in most cases their quality is very suspect. I know vendors here market these systems to make a living and in most cases do to survive especially after the market collapse in the USA.
Are KW, Ohlin, AST, Koni basically first line brands marketed well? Are they priced out of most enthusiests budget?
What other brands are available for additional suspension upgrades? Whiteline I see has a presence which is very large in N.A.
thank you,
Jason
14 January 2011, 08:04 AM
#3
Personally I think your right with those brands being out of budget for most enthusiasts. I recently bought a set of BC Racing (apex) coilovers...ive had KW Variant 1's before and I struggle to notice the difference day to day, just the price tag! Im sure on a well set up track/race car the top spec stuff would be needed but for everyday road car/occasional track car, dealing with our pot holed streets, and in economic crisis, good quality lower priced kits will be more in demand.
Im interested to hear your views on quality though, as these are very good.
Im interested to hear your views on quality though, as these are very good.
14 January 2011, 10:10 AM
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budget is a funny thing though, isn't it? How we decide some random number is how much we feel like spending irrespective of what it may or may not get us. We say, I don't feel like spending more than 500 quid or a thousand. Rather than saying I want my car to handle so and so or behave in this manner, what will it cost...and then start saving. Sure, it sometimes seems insane to spend more on parts than the value of the car! But in the end, we all know we can somehow justify it to ourselves. Its about shifting financial priorities. Do you really want that new front mount IC or those new Volk TE37s?
From my experience with the low budget coilovers, I find the cost cutting, one damper cartride fits all solution is seriously wanting. Now, I don't want a full motorsport solution that costs 10k per corner, but I do want something that will have good, predictable and consistent damping properties and decent travel. I haven't been satisfied with any of those qualities on the budget coilovers. As far as durability is concerned, that's kind of a toss up. I've seen high end and low end need a rebuild sooner than expected. Fortunately for the low budgets, they just send you out a whole new cartridge and you're done. Convenient, for sure. I dunno, I think I prefer to save a few months extra and get an amazing solution that will be supple, controlled, adaptable and fast...but to a budget. How much were those Reiger's that Ian just bought> 2500? Sounds good to me.
From my experience with the low budget coilovers, I find the cost cutting, one damper cartride fits all solution is seriously wanting. Now, I don't want a full motorsport solution that costs 10k per corner, but I do want something that will have good, predictable and consistent damping properties and decent travel. I haven't been satisfied with any of those qualities on the budget coilovers. As far as durability is concerned, that's kind of a toss up. I've seen high end and low end need a rebuild sooner than expected. Fortunately for the low budgets, they just send you out a whole new cartridge and you're done. Convenient, for sure. I dunno, I think I prefer to save a few months extra and get an amazing solution that will be supple, controlled, adaptable and fast...but to a budget. How much were those Reiger's that Ian just bought> 2500? Sounds good to me.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 14 January 2011 at 10:17 AM.
17 January 2011, 07:00 AM
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budget is a funny thing though, isn't it? How we decide some random number is how much we feel like spending irrespective of what it may or may not get us. We say, I don't feel like spending more than 500 quid or a thousand. Rather than saying I want my car to handle so and so or behave in this manner, what will it cost...and then start saving. Sure, it sometimes seems insane to spend more on parts than the value of the car! But in the end, we all know we can somehow justify it to ourselves. Its about shifting financial priorities. Do you really want that new front mount IC or those new Volk TE37s?
From my experience with the low budget coilovers, I find the cost cutting, one damper cartride fits all solution is seriously wanting. Now, I don't want a full motorsport solution that costs 10k per corner, but I do want something that will have good, predictable and consistent damping properties and decent travel. I haven't been satisfied with any of those qualities on the budget coilovers. As far as durability is concerned, that's kind of a toss up. I've seen high end and low end need a rebuild sooner than expected. Fortunately for the low budgets, they just send you out a whole new cartridge and you're done. Convenient, for sure. I dunno, I think I prefer to save a few months extra and get an amazing solution that will be supple, controlled, adaptable and fast...but to a budget. How much were those Reiger's that Ian just bought> 2500? Sounds good to me.
From my experience with the low budget coilovers, I find the cost cutting, one damper cartride fits all solution is seriously wanting. Now, I don't want a full motorsport solution that costs 10k per corner, but I do want something that will have good, predictable and consistent damping properties and decent travel. I haven't been satisfied with any of those qualities on the budget coilovers. As far as durability is concerned, that's kind of a toss up. I've seen high end and low end need a rebuild sooner than expected. Fortunately for the low budgets, they just send you out a whole new cartridge and you're done. Convenient, for sure. I dunno, I think I prefer to save a few months extra and get an amazing solution that will be supple, controlled, adaptable and fast...but to a budget. How much were those Reiger's that Ian just bought> 2500? Sounds good to me.
Arnie,
I think we both come from the same suspension gene pool
.Another thing to add is what genre of driving do you want your suspension to perform? auto-x, track, street, gravel? If you are mainly spending time cruising the blvd "slammed" on your 19'' chrome wheels and entry level c/o system will suffice, why spend $$$ on Ohlins if they will not be set-up to perform its a waste of money.
Its a different story when it comes to high performance driving events, auto-x etc. I want my suspension to perform at a high level and companies like KW, Ohlin, JRZ, Penske and many others have a reputation to do so as long as the vehicle has been set-up in a safe and professional manner.
There are many threads on different forums where engineers have dynoed entry level dampers and compared them to higher end "entry level" pieces and the discrepancy between them is quite large. The data collected in some cases shows out of 36 click rebound adj. on an entry level system the difference between 10 and 16 clicks is nothing. Also when comparing damping settings from one shock to another the damping rates differences were quite large when set on the same setting. Damping rates differences are prevelent on higher end shocks but not as severe. Lapping gurus will have each shock dynoed and tuned appropiately.
When it comes to quality I have seen all types of suspension systems need rebuiilding but not as frequent as the entry level kits especially the kits that offer pillowball strut tops and lower clevice rideheight adj. The pillowballs bomb-out, lower clevices coming loose and taking out the threads, dampers leaking and this is after a short time of use. OK, the manufacture offers free dampers or whatever is broken but you still need to pay for labour or waste your time doing the re/re of the suspension plus the cost of another wheel alignment.
One last thing to look at is resale, most of us will part are cars before we sell them. In my area I see enthusiests getting 60-65% of their investment when reselling their KW V3 even after a couple yrs. of use when in proper working order. Entry level systems usually are residing in our recycling bin, not worth paying to have them fixed for resale.
I do not want to sound arrogant or rub anybody the wrong way but I have seen this scenario toomany times. I understand we all have certain budgets and needs this is just my opinion on the subject.
23 January 2011, 12:32 AM
#6
One last thing to look at is resale, most of us will part are cars before we sell them. In my area I see enthusiests getting 60-65% of their investment when reselling their KW V3 even after a couple yrs. of use when in proper working order. Entry level systems usually are residing in our recycling bin, not worth paying to have them fixed for resale.
08 March 2011, 09:09 PM
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Arnie,
I think we both come from the same suspension gene pool.
Another thing to add is what genre of driving do you want your suspension to perform? auto-x, track, street, gravel? If you are mainly spending time cruising the blvd "slammed" on your 19'' chrome wheels and entry level c/o system will suffice, why spend $$$ on Ohlins if they will not be set-up to perform its a waste of money.
Its a different story when it comes to high performance driving events, auto-x etc. I want my suspension to perform at a high level and companies like KW, Ohlin, JRZ, Penske and many others have a reputation to do so as long as the vehicle has been set-up in a safe and professional manner.
There are many threads on different forums where engineers have dynoed entry level dampers and compared them to higher end "entry level" pieces and the discrepancy between them is quite large. The data collected in some cases shows out of 36 click rebound adj. on an entry level system the difference between 10 and 16 clicks is nothing. Also when comparing damping settings from one shock to another the damping rates differences were quite large when set on the same setting. Damping rates differences are prevelent on higher end shocks but not as severe. Lapping gurus will have each shock dynoed and tuned appropiately.
When it comes to quality I have seen all types of suspension systems need rebuiilding but not as frequent as the entry level kits especially the kits that offer pillowball strut tops and lower clevice rideheight adj. The pillowballs bomb-out, lower clevices coming loose and taking out the threads, dampers leaking and this is after a short time of use. OK, the manufacture offers free dampers or whatever is broken but you still need to pay for labour or waste your time doing the re/re of the suspension plus the cost of another wheel alignment.
One last thing to look at is resale, most of us will part are cars before we sell them. In my area I see enthusiests getting 60-65% of their investment when reselling their KW V3 even after a couple yrs. of use when in proper working order. Entry level systems usually are residing in our recycling bin, not worth paying to have them fixed for resale.
I do not want to sound arrogant or rub anybody the wrong way but I have seen this scenario toomany times. I understand we all have certain budgets and needs this is just my opinion on the subject.
I think we both come from the same suspension gene pool
.Another thing to add is what genre of driving do you want your suspension to perform? auto-x, track, street, gravel? If you are mainly spending time cruising the blvd "slammed" on your 19'' chrome wheels and entry level c/o system will suffice, why spend $$$ on Ohlins if they will not be set-up to perform its a waste of money.
Its a different story when it comes to high performance driving events, auto-x etc. I want my suspension to perform at a high level and companies like KW, Ohlin, JRZ, Penske and many others have a reputation to do so as long as the vehicle has been set-up in a safe and professional manner.
There are many threads on different forums where engineers have dynoed entry level dampers and compared them to higher end "entry level" pieces and the discrepancy between them is quite large. The data collected in some cases shows out of 36 click rebound adj. on an entry level system the difference between 10 and 16 clicks is nothing. Also when comparing damping settings from one shock to another the damping rates differences were quite large when set on the same setting. Damping rates differences are prevelent on higher end shocks but not as severe. Lapping gurus will have each shock dynoed and tuned appropiately.
When it comes to quality I have seen all types of suspension systems need rebuiilding but not as frequent as the entry level kits especially the kits that offer pillowball strut tops and lower clevice rideheight adj. The pillowballs bomb-out, lower clevices coming loose and taking out the threads, dampers leaking and this is after a short time of use. OK, the manufacture offers free dampers or whatever is broken but you still need to pay for labour or waste your time doing the re/re of the suspension plus the cost of another wheel alignment.
One last thing to look at is resale, most of us will part are cars before we sell them. In my area I see enthusiests getting 60-65% of their investment when reselling their KW V3 even after a couple yrs. of use when in proper working order. Entry level systems usually are residing in our recycling bin, not worth paying to have them fixed for resale.
I do not want to sound arrogant or rub anybody the wrong way but I have seen this scenario toomany times. I understand we all have certain budgets and needs this is just my opinion on the subject.
3 years ago I started selling/servicing WP and Ohlins bike suspension... unfortunately sh$t happened and had to give it up but had some great training (I still have all the tools including the vacuum pump) and had plenty of lengthy talks with guys in Austria who have experience with world champ supermoto setups...
like you mentioned - you should be able to notice a difference with every click regardless if you have 8 or 38 clicks... with my old WP's on a dirtbike I only had to go up or down 2 or 3 clicks before I was out of the zone for a particular type of ride/conditions... took a few weeks to get the right settings but it was well worth it... those forks are now on their 4th bike (unfortunately not my bike!)... totally rebuildable and settings are consistent after every rebuild... with the cheaper stuff the settings are just not as consistent and not as easily able to fine tune it...
funny... just checked out the prices of the most popular coilover upgrades (BC, Tein, etc.) and realized that I spent more for the WP forks and shock that were on my yami at cost than most people here spend on their Impreza STI suspension "upgrade"! not to mention the crapload I spent on tools!... interesting... can't wait to do Nurburgring and other track test sessions with different coilovers setup at their best to see the overall difference... sorry was just dreaming a bit there ;-)
I am also originally from Vancouver so it is cool to see your posts here... I am just saving up now for a classic STI and putting together a list of things to upgrade... mostly suspension stuff
... this is a cool forum to browse and have been for some time now... good luck with your venture... might have to check you guys out next time I'm in Van...
Last edited by superhero; 08 March 2011 at 09:24 PM.
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11 March 2011, 02:07 PM
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I think an interesting development I've seen on this board and on other Subaru Forums is a new wave of owners who bought into the Impreza world "cheaply". Because the cost of the Turbo models has come down significantly, its no longer the realm of the "passionate" enthusiast or well to do, when these cars cost 30-50k GBP. You can now get one for 1500! So the budget expectations have shifted with this new group of enthusiasts. Before, owners (rightfully) saw this car and its engineering pedigree on the same level as a Porsche and modified (without real hesitance) in this same price/performance range. Our typical upgrades were Leda, Bilstein, Öhlins, Brembo, Alcon, AP Racing, STi, etc. No one would have ever considered putting something like the low end coilovers on this car because, frankly, most appreciated the difference and were willing to pay for the increase in performance. Paying 2500-5000 on coilovers on a 30k-50k GBP car was still within an acceptable percentage of total output in costs. But now, its hard to mentally and emotionally justify spending 5x as much on suspension than what the car was bought for.
12 March 2011, 09:55 PM
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I think an interesting development I've seen on this board and on other Subaru Forums is a new wave of owners who bought into the Impreza world "cheaply". Because the cost of the Turbo models has come down significantly, its no longer the realm of the "passionate" enthusiast or well to do, when these cars cost 30-50k GBP. You can now get one for 1500! So the budget expectations have shifted with this new group of enthusiasts. Before, owners (rightfully) saw this car and its engineering pedigree on the same level as a Porsche and modified (without real hesitance) in this same price/performance range. Our typical upgrades were Leda, Bilstein, Öhlins, Brembo, Alcon, AP Racing, STi, etc. No one would have ever considered putting something like the low end coilovers on this car because, frankly, most appreciated the difference and were willing to pay for the increase in performance. Paying 2500-5000 on coilovers on a 30k-50k GBP car was still within an acceptable percentage of total output in costs. But now, its hard to mentally and emotionally justify spending 5x as much on suspension than what the car was bought for.
I also get a bit rattled by some major builds with over the top engines and yet no great suspension setup or effort on the suspension...
but I guess a build diary documenting shim changes is probably not as exciting as changing engine parts for most
although I would definitely be subscribedjust to keep on topic for this thread... I will be running Ohlins... I am scared of big, big HP and so I will focus on having the best handling car possible...
Last edited by superhero; 13 March 2011 at 07:46 AM. Reason: to keep the post on topic...
12 March 2011, 10:04 PM
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Anything is better than the std KYB rubbish on these cars, the RB320 has bilsteins after all.
My 'Budget BC's' are better than std, but much cheaper than bilsteins. I'm happy.
Look at what you have, and look at what what you want. Make your judgement on this only, not price.
Dipster.
My 'Budget BC's' are better than std, but much cheaper than bilsteins. I'm happy.
Look at what you have, and look at what what you want. Make your judgement on this only, not price.
Dipster.
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