Rattling Leda's?
07 February 2001, 06:02 PM
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Hiya!
For some time I've read about people having problems with their rear Leda struts rattling at low speed, and all seem to have the same phenomenon, 3 of my mates, and myself are having the same "problem".
At higher speeds the rattling sound disappears, it's only at lower speeds, and on rough surface that they're knocking and rattling...
Pete C told me it's because of the oil being cold and very thick....but still what is causing that annoying sound? Is that sound from the suspension parts...bushings what? Or is it the strut itself causing these sounds?
The car feels solid, and the difference from stock (and dodgy
) euro spec susp is enormous...I'm very happy with this upgrade, except for this.
Does anyone know why? There must be alot out there with the same problem.
Let's get out heads together and find a solution for this.
Cheers
/Jerry - Sweden
For some time I've read about people having problems with their rear Leda struts rattling at low speed, and all seem to have the same phenomenon, 3 of my mates, and myself are having the same "problem".
At higher speeds the rattling sound disappears, it's only at lower speeds, and on rough surface that they're knocking and rattling...
Pete C told me it's because of the oil being cold and very thick....but still what is causing that annoying sound? Is that sound from the suspension parts...bushings what? Or is it the strut itself causing these sounds?
The car feels solid, and the difference from stock (and dodgy
) euro spec susp is enormous...I'm very happy with this upgrade, except for this.Does anyone know why? There must be alot out there with the same problem.
Let's get out heads together and find a solution for this.
Cheers
/Jerry - Sweden
07 February 2001, 06:35 PM
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Howdy..
I have the same on my rebuilt Ledas... but on the front.
It never used to do this until it was recently rebuilt.
Maybe they are using a new design on insert that has "play" in it?
It is certainly a knocking noise at low speed over bumpy conditions. Doesnt seem to happen any other time.
Nothing is lose with the suspension..
I will take the strut off and send it away at some point.
J.
I have the same on my rebuilt Ledas... but on the front.
It never used to do this until it was recently rebuilt.
Maybe they are using a new design on insert that has "play" in it?
It is certainly a knocking noise at low speed over bumpy conditions. Doesnt seem to happen any other time.
Nothing is lose with the suspension..
I will take the strut off and send it away at some point.
J.
07 February 2001, 10:00 PM
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Leda claim they never had problems with the front struts and have a solution for the rear ones that I need to have fitted. Rears most certainly rattle louder as the structures are more hollow and lighter (less static/dynamic load).
I love the way my Leda B works, but I am getting profoundly irritated by the noises which (18 months ago) I have eliminated after a lot of trouble and hard work - until 2 months ago all I had was a bit of rattle from the rear struts for the first 3-5 miles of driving.
Now I am sure the rears are very loud to start with and I think the fronts make some noises as well. Not good at all.
The problem is that every time struts come off (front in particular), the complete alingment goes to hell and Leda's adjustments are far too approximate to my standards. So, one attempt to cure the problem (and no guarantee it will be cured after a day of time spent, 160 miles return trip to Leda, another 100 miles to Micheldever for alignment, 1.5 tank of petrol and whatever Leda charge for their work) is quite a demanding task.
I am told this is all nothing in exchange for excellent performance and that my ultra-high standards are the problem. Well, perhaps.
q.
PS. What should I do? Give up a wonderful product or give up what I hear and pretend it is not there? Or...?
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 07 February 2001).]
I love the way my Leda B works, but I am getting profoundly irritated by the noises which (18 months ago) I have eliminated after a lot of trouble and hard work - until 2 months ago all I had was a bit of rattle from the rear struts for the first 3-5 miles of driving.
Now I am sure the rears are very loud to start with and I think the fronts make some noises as well. Not good at all.
The problem is that every time struts come off (front in particular), the complete alingment goes to hell and Leda's adjustments are far too approximate to my standards. So, one attempt to cure the problem (and no guarantee it will be cured after a day of time spent, 160 miles return trip to Leda, another 100 miles to Micheldever for alignment, 1.5 tank of petrol and whatever Leda charge for their work) is quite a demanding task.
I am told this is all nothing in exchange for excellent performance and that my ultra-high standards are the problem. Well, perhaps.
q.
PS. What should I do? Give up a wonderful product or give up what I hear and pretend it is not there? Or...?
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 07 February 2001).]
08 February 2001, 08:03 AM
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How 'new' is this fix for the rear struts? and does it actually work? I have the same problem with mine and it bugs the **** out of me
I went to Leda for a 'fix' some time ago, but after about 300 miles, the noise was back.
Is this another 'New' fix, if it works then excellent, what is involved?
Having high standards should be no compromise. Do all similar suspension setups have the same problem on scoobies? (probably not)
We pay alot of money for our cars and we pay alot of money for the suspension, in my opinion, having such a noise is not acceptable.
Cheers,
David
ps Pete - Does Dave Lyons (from Leda) have access to the BBS, if so can we get him to discuss this with us all?
I went to Leda for a 'fix' some time ago, but after about 300 miles, the noise was back.
Is this another 'New' fix, if it works then excellent, what is involved?
Having high standards should be no compromise. Do all similar suspension setups have the same problem on scoobies? (probably not)
We pay alot of money for our cars and we pay alot of money for the suspension, in my opinion, having such a noise is not acceptable.
Cheers,
David
ps Pete - Does Dave Lyons (from Leda) have access to the BBS, if so can we get him to discuss this with us all?
08 February 2001, 02:48 PM
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Pete C, you know all about my problems in relation to this particular topic, and ironically I had to pull over this morning because of a loud metallic rattle/banging from the front offside strut!!
SecretAgentMan, is the sound that you describe a load metallic one?? Or is it the 'crunchy' sound that has been a characteristic of the Leda struts for a long time.
[This message has been edited by PAUL GEE (edited 09 February 2001).]
SecretAgentMan, is the sound that you describe a load metallic one?? Or is it the 'crunchy' sound that has been a characteristic of the Leda struts for a long time.
[This message has been edited by PAUL GEE (edited 09 February 2001).]
08 February 2001, 04:36 PM
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My rear struts make a metallic rattle, that seems to get worse with the temperatures going down to feckin cold.
3 of my mates have the exact same sound/symptoms.
It's really pissing me off, though I love the way the kit transformed my car, so...looks like im SOL and had better to get used to it.
Well...it's only showing it's ugly head at slow speeds, another excuse to drive fast.
/J
3 of my mates have the exact same sound/symptoms.
It's really pissing me off, though I love the way the kit transformed my car, so...looks like im SOL and had better to get used to it.
Well...it's only showing it's ugly head at slow speeds, another excuse to drive fast.
/J
09 February 2001, 12:27 AM
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Jerry has hit the nail on the head, with the temperature.
Leda units, like all other competition grade dampers will be noisier when very cold.
All dampers use oil as the damping media. This oil is forced through a series of valves and it is the control of this flow that damps the wheels movement.
When the damper is very cold, the oil is too thick. The slow rate valving (that which is used when driving at slow speed) is effectively providing too much resistance. As the vehicle speed increases, the speed of the damper increases and high speed valves do most of the control.
The main problem is that if you use an oil which is good at -10 to 100 degC, the performance will deteriorate after a few miles of hard driving. If you use an oil which works best between 30 and 150 degC it will need to warm up before it flows efficiently.
Leda now use a new Silkolene damper oil. This is also used by all Ohlins and some Proflex units, due to its wide temp spread. This oil has only been available recently and has gone some way to helping.
One of the advatages of Leda units, is also one of the disadvatages. Leda units are always drawing fresh, cool oil into the valve system. Whilst this gives constant and stable handling, due to better temp control, it does mean that the oil is slower to warm up. Cheaper dampers use valves on the piston, which simply ride up and down in the tube. This creates a large temperature differential, between the middle position and the extremes. When you study the handling of most cars using standard dampers, you can feel the deterioration over a journey.
Leda have made great strides in valve design and viscocity control, which have virtually eliminated this, but it can still occur... Particularly when the ambient temperature is this cold.
The standard Subaru units also suffer from this problem. But the Subaru units have more substantial isolation and less valve control so less noise is transmitted to the chassis. They use valving on the piston, so the oil closest to the valves suffers the abuse and warms up very quickly.
Paul... I don't have any contact details for you, please call me.
Leda units, like all other competition grade dampers will be noisier when very cold.
All dampers use oil as the damping media. This oil is forced through a series of valves and it is the control of this flow that damps the wheels movement.
When the damper is very cold, the oil is too thick. The slow rate valving (that which is used when driving at slow speed) is effectively providing too much resistance. As the vehicle speed increases, the speed of the damper increases and high speed valves do most of the control.
The main problem is that if you use an oil which is good at -10 to 100 degC, the performance will deteriorate after a few miles of hard driving. If you use an oil which works best between 30 and 150 degC it will need to warm up before it flows efficiently.
Leda now use a new Silkolene damper oil. This is also used by all Ohlins and some Proflex units, due to its wide temp spread. This oil has only been available recently and has gone some way to helping.
One of the advatages of Leda units, is also one of the disadvatages. Leda units are always drawing fresh, cool oil into the valve system. Whilst this gives constant and stable handling, due to better temp control, it does mean that the oil is slower to warm up. Cheaper dampers use valves on the piston, which simply ride up and down in the tube. This creates a large temperature differential, between the middle position and the extremes. When you study the handling of most cars using standard dampers, you can feel the deterioration over a journey.
Leda have made great strides in valve design and viscocity control, which have virtually eliminated this, but it can still occur... Particularly when the ambient temperature is this cold.
The standard Subaru units also suffer from this problem. But the Subaru units have more substantial isolation and less valve control so less noise is transmitted to the chassis. They use valving on the piston, so the oil closest to the valves suffers the abuse and warms up very quickly.
Paul... I don't have any contact details for you, please call me.
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09 February 2001, 03:40 PM
#8
Pete
Any idea what may be causing my knocking noise?
Remember when you bounced the back of PTMW! & felt the knocking?
Well, I had the rubber mount we thought was the problem replaced. Unfortunately that hasn't cured the knocking noise or the extra movement
Doh!
Haven't had a chance to pop back to Leda, as its quite hard to arrange these things without the wife knowing...
Any idea what may be causing my knocking noise?
Remember when you bounced the back of PTMW! & felt the knocking?
Well, I had the rubber mount we thought was the problem replaced. Unfortunately that hasn't cured the knocking noise or the extra movement Doh!
Haven't had a chance to pop back to Leda, as its quite hard to arrange these things without the wife knowing...
10 February 2001, 12:38 AM
#9
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Pete
Presumably Leda damper adjustments range from soft for normal road use to hard for track/competition?
Does anyone have any suggestions for springs rates though? These will have to cope with both driving conditions and will obviously therefore be a compromise.
Presumably Leda damper adjustments range from soft for normal road use to hard for track/competition?
Does anyone have any suggestions for springs rates though? These will have to cope with both driving conditions and will obviously therefore be a compromise.
10 February 2001, 09:45 AM
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Hi Pete, thanks for the info.
A couple of questions.
How recently have leda been using the Silkolene Oil?
How do the dampers know when the car is going fast or slow?
I can quite clearly hear the ratle in my car at speeds up to 50 mph, as you can imagine, this is quite anoying.
How much to have them rebuilt (again) with the new oil (and any other new fix).
If the noise is directly related to damper speed and movement, will firmer springs at the back produce less noise? ie, the dampers will not be moving as much, I ask because you had firmer springs on your old car which was as quiet as a mouse compared to mine.
I'd appreciate a mail of the costs associated with any possible fix.
Cheers
Dave
[This message has been edited by david (edited 10 February 2001).]
A couple of questions.
How recently have leda been using the Silkolene Oil?
How do the dampers know when the car is going fast or slow?
I can quite clearly hear the ratle in my car at speeds up to 50 mph, as you can imagine, this is quite anoying.
How much to have them rebuilt (again) with the new oil (and any other new fix).
If the noise is directly related to damper speed and movement, will firmer springs at the back produce less noise? ie, the dampers will not be moving as much, I ask because you had firmer springs on your old car which was as quiet as a mouse compared to mine.
I'd appreciate a mail of the costs associated with any possible fix.
Cheers
Dave
[This message has been edited by david (edited 10 February 2001).]
10 February 2001, 01:08 PM
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Howdy..
Leda come with 275 and 225 as standard..
For track I run 450 and 275... and these seem a little soft at times...
But it will depend on the other suspension components and tire choice.
J.
Leda come with 275 and 225 as standard..
For track I run 450 and 275... and these seem a little soft at times...
But it will depend on the other suspension components and tire choice.
J.
10 February 2001, 04:41 PM
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Thanks for your comments Firefox. 275/225 sounds closer to what I need than your track spring rates. We have HKS stuff now and it's far too hard - any idea what those springs rates are?
Know anyone using Ohlins or Proflex?
Apparently they both offer a 'budget' road set-up as opposed to the dogs doodleys rally spec kit.
Know anyone using Ohlins or Proflex?
Apparently they both offer a 'budget' road set-up as opposed to the dogs doodleys rally spec kit.
13 February 2001, 07:23 AM
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Thanks for your reply Pete!
BUT.....if the strut is "transferring" that rattling sound....where does it originate from???? There must be a bit of play somewhere, and hopefully something that could be sorted.
Fortunately springtime is approaching rapidly, and temperature is rising from "feckin cold", so my rattling is barely audible now.
Still, VERY irritating, since I know it's there, I tend to try to listen for it.
But...the car feels great, and soon I'm on low profile summer tires...then all I will hear is the Essex beatbox, with the windows down.
Regards
/J
BUT.....if the strut is "transferring" that rattling sound....where does it originate from???? There must be a bit of play somewhere, and hopefully something that could be sorted.
Fortunately springtime is approaching rapidly, and temperature is rising from "feckin cold", so my rattling is barely audible now.
Still, VERY irritating, since I know it's there, I tend to try to listen for it.
But...the car feels great, and soon I'm on low profile summer tires...then all I will hear is the Essex beatbox, with the windows down.
Regards
/J
15 February 2001, 08:32 AM
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I am really impressed with my Ledas but the rattling is annoying and I am not sure as to whether it is oil temperature related. I have had mine rebuilt 3 times now. The last time being very recent with the latest mods. It was all well and quiet for a few weeks and then the rattles returned on the rear, they do seem a bit quieter now though. None of my rattles are only when cold, they just seem to be when the car is trundling along and not driving hard.
Any one solved this yet with Leda?
Any one solved this yet with Leda?
15 February 2001, 01:19 PM
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Silver Surfer,
I have exactly the same experience as you.
Mine make a terrible noise all the time, have been re-built twice (once recently). I can hear the noise over the radio even at sppeds of 40 to 50 mph and to be honest, it does sound more like a rattle than anyhting else. Almost certainly influenced by the grade of road I am driving on.
Dave
I have exactly the same experience as you.
Mine make a terrible noise all the time, have been re-built twice (once recently). I can hear the noise over the radio even at sppeds of 40 to 50 mph and to be honest, it does sound more like a rattle than anyhting else. Almost certainly influenced by the grade of road I am driving on.
Dave
15 February 2001, 01:28 PM
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Well it sounds liek a common problem which the more recent mods haven't cured so where do we go from here. Leda have never discovered anything wrong with my shocks during rebuild the last 2 times.
15 February 2001, 02:20 PM
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So....we all agree on the symptoms, Leda can't find anything wrong with the struts....those rattles must be coming from the other suspension parts.
This must be really easily sorted imho...Scoobysport (or even Leda) please come up with a solution and I will purchase it. This rattling is royally pissing me off.
Sincerely
/Jerry - Sweden
This must be really easily sorted imho...Scoobysport (or even Leda) please come up with a solution and I will purchase it. This rattling is royally pissing me off.
Sincerely
/Jerry - Sweden
16 February 2001, 08:34 AM
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I do not necessarily agree - if the rattling goes a for a few weeks after the Ledas have been rebuilt then it does sound like a shock problem more than other parts. I also know of a gas Leda C system that has had the same problem. This could be the price to pay for using race spec shocks on the road and for teh car to handle so well.
18 February 2001, 09:33 AM
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My car has been back to Leda 3 times now, they claim its the rubber on top of the mount.
The noise has been back now for 3 months I have emailed Leda no response, Too busy to waste a day to go up to Leda.
Will wait until a fix has been established before wasting my time.
If it wasnt such a good product I would have had it taken off by now.
Saj
[This message has been edited by Saj (edited 18 February 2001).]
The noise has been back now for 3 months I have emailed Leda no response, Too busy to waste a day to go up to Leda.
Will wait until a fix has been established before wasting my time.
If it wasnt such a good product I would have had it taken off by now.
Saj
[This message has been edited by Saj (edited 18 February 2001).]
14 March 2001, 09:26 AM
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Hi guys, well at least I'm not alone then! I have had the rear Ledas rebuilt once, and to be fair, the rattling has reduced in volume, but the annoying thing is that it is *always* there, even after the oil has warmed up. Also at speed there is an annoying "drumming" coming from the back of the car. The noise not so obvious when carrying passengers in the rear.
I guess most of us have seen the original Subaru suspension which came off the back of our cars, and it's not hard to spot the thick rubber mounting ring at the top of the strut, which I suppose, isolates the suspension from the bodyshell.
The Leda kit only has a thin nylon O-ring at the top of the strut.
Now I suppose it is sacriledge to suggest this, but why on earth can't Leda come up with a nice rubber isolator, similar to the standard Subaru item, just for those of us who want a quiet ride? I put this question to Dave Lyons in November, when I had the rebuild done, and his reply was "well, it's not really possible".
Well, my question is "Why not?". Anything is possible if enough people want it done, and from what I've read here, most of us would be prepared to pay for a proper fix. How about it Leda?
Cheers,
Jeremy
I guess most of us have seen the original Subaru suspension which came off the back of our cars, and it's not hard to spot the thick rubber mounting ring at the top of the strut, which I suppose, isolates the suspension from the bodyshell.
The Leda kit only has a thin nylon O-ring at the top of the strut.
Now I suppose it is sacriledge to suggest this, but why on earth can't Leda come up with a nice rubber isolator, similar to the standard Subaru item, just for those of us who want a quiet ride? I put this question to Dave Lyons in November, when I had the rebuild done, and his reply was "well, it's not really possible".
Well, my question is "Why not?". Anything is possible if enough people want it done, and from what I've read here, most of us would be prepared to pay for a proper fix. How about it Leda?
Cheers,
Jeremy
14 March 2001, 11:23 AM
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Guys
Dave Lyons has been working with revised valving to reduce NVH from the damper unit. The revisions have been incorporated on all units fitted in the past 5 months. This has completely cured the problem, without any detrimental effect on the damper performance and can be retro fitted to existing units.
If your units are in warranty, they will be modified free of charge. If they are out of warranty, they will be up-dated at your next service rebuild at no additional cost. You can either take your car to Leda or send the units to them for the work to be done.
Please contact Leda or Scoobysport for a convenient date.
Dave Lyons has been working with revised valving to reduce NVH from the damper unit. The revisions have been incorporated on all units fitted in the past 5 months. This has completely cured the problem, without any detrimental effect on the damper performance and can be retro fitted to existing units.
If your units are in warranty, they will be modified free of charge. If they are out of warranty, they will be up-dated at your next service rebuild at no additional cost. You can either take your car to Leda or send the units to them for the work to be done.
Please contact Leda or Scoobysport for a convenient date.
14 March 2001, 11:23 AM
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Can we rule out the OEM bushes in this case or would a complete upgrade of the bushes eliminate the extra strain put on the surrounding components by Leda... and thereby eliminate the rattling?
Only guessing here since I've no idea where the rattling actually stems from (apart from the suspension-area-bits)
*knock-knock-knock* <- Me driving over three average-sized pebbles...
/G
Only guessing here since I've no idea where the rattling actually stems from (apart from the suspension-area-bits)
*knock-knock-knock* <- Me driving over three average-sized pebbles...
/G
14 March 2001, 11:28 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pete Croney:
<B>
Please contact Leda or Scoobysport for a convenient date.[/quote]
...guess that ruled out the bushes then!
Hopefully Leda will let BCT (Sweden) do the job or else you'll be honoured with a visit from a whole lot of Swedes in the near future!
/G
[This message has been edited by Daemon_G (edited 14 March 2001).]
<B>
Please contact Leda or Scoobysport for a convenient date.[/quote]
...guess that ruled out the bushes then!
Hopefully Leda will let BCT (Sweden) do the job or else you'll be honoured with a visit from a whole lot of Swedes in the near future!
/G
[This message has been edited by Daemon_G (edited 14 March 2001).]
14 March 2001, 03:36 PM
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Pete Croney wrote:
>Guys
>Dave Lyons has been working with revised valving to reduce NVH from the damper unit. The revisions
>have been incorporated on all units fitted in the past 5 months. This has completely cured the problem...
Sorry Pete, but I have to take issue with that statement.
1. My rear dampers were rebuilt by Leda in November, which is less than 5 months ago.
2. The "problem" has most certainly not been cured! My Leda setup still rattles over uneven surfaces at low speed (more so when the dampers are cold - but it is always audible even after a long drive). The car is also *far* more noisy from the rear than with the OEM struts.
As Saj wrote, "If it wasnt such a good product I would have had it taken off by now."
Jeremy
Still waiting for a better solution.
>Guys
>Dave Lyons has been working with revised valving to reduce NVH from the damper unit. The revisions
>have been incorporated on all units fitted in the past 5 months. This has completely cured the problem...
Sorry Pete, but I have to take issue with that statement.
1. My rear dampers were rebuilt by Leda in November, which is less than 5 months ago.
2. The "problem" has most certainly not been cured! My Leda setup still rattles over uneven surfaces at low speed (more so when the dampers are cold - but it is always audible even after a long drive). The car is also *far* more noisy from the rear than with the OEM struts.
As Saj wrote, "If it wasnt such a good product I would have had it taken off by now."
Jeremy
Still waiting for a better solution.
14 March 2001, 06:58 PM
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Jeremy... I'll check with Leda, to find out exactly what they did. If you can ring me, I'll liase for a date so that it can be as it should be.
Dave... Any suspension system will have lost its edge in 30,000 miles. I have my own car's suspension rebuilt at this interval.
Dave... Any suspension system will have lost its edge in 30,000 miles. I have my own car's suspension rebuilt at this interval.
16 March 2001, 12:15 AM
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Mine is already supposed to have the latest fix (rebuilt in November), but I've booked it in to let them have another look at them on 3rd April.
As an aside, Dave Lyon reckons that the standard spring rates are 300/225, not the 275/225 which many of you have got. I have 300's at the front. I am going to get my rear springs reduced to 200 for a more comfy ride, but Dave seems reluctant to OK a change of the fronts down to 275 for technical reasons (coils bunching up).
Anypone have any problems with the fronts at 275 (or less) on our ordinary (crap) road surfaces?
Jeremy
As an aside, Dave Lyon reckons that the standard spring rates are 300/225, not the 275/225 which many of you have got. I have 300's at the front. I am going to get my rear springs reduced to 200 for a more comfy ride, but Dave seems reluctant to OK a change of the fronts down to 275 for technical reasons (coils bunching up).
Anypone have any problems with the fronts at 275 (or less) on our ordinary (crap) road surfaces?
Jeremy
16 March 2001, 06:32 PM
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Had mine sorted today, went to Leda and Dave and the guys re-built all the dampers and incorporated the new valve systems.
I also had a few other changes made,
I raised the ride height by 5mm from standrd LEDA setup (due to a car park problem and also that when someone sizeable sits in the passanger seat and I go over the wrong type of bump there was a tyre rubbing problem) and,
I now have the dampers on 5 clicks front and 3 rear (instead of 9 and 7).
Well, all I can say is WOW !
The ride is much much better on the new settings.
As expected there are no noises from the dampers at all, although from previous experiences, it will take a good 500 to 1000 miles before there is any conclusive proof that the fix works.
If it does then I will be one happy chappy, it was a pleasure to drive, not have the stereo on and listen to the engine without the annoyance of the rattle. A real pleasure.
Thanks to all the guys at LEDA for sorting me out today at such short notice.
Dave
I also had a few other changes made,
I raised the ride height by 5mm from standrd LEDA setup (due to a car park problem and also that when someone sizeable sits in the passanger seat and I go over the wrong type of bump there was a tyre rubbing problem) and,
I now have the dampers on 5 clicks front and 3 rear (instead of 9 and 7).
Well, all I can say is WOW !
The ride is much much better on the new settings.
As expected there are no noises from the dampers at all, although from previous experiences, it will take a good 500 to 1000 miles before there is any conclusive proof that the fix works.
If it does then I will be one happy chappy, it was a pleasure to drive, not have the stereo on and listen to the engine without the annoyance of the rattle. A real pleasure.
Thanks to all the guys at LEDA for sorting me out today at such short notice.
Dave