Powerflex bushes
14 March 2000, 01:49 PM
#1
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Hi peeps, 
I`m in the process of purchasing a new front sway bar 22mm,rear adjustable sway bar 22mm, ALK, and the sway bar links.
So while this is going to be fitted which bushes should I replace ?
Obviously the bushes for the above parts but is it worth while changing any others while this is being done ?
Please don`t say every one, I don`t want to spend too much.
Oh it`s a MY93 WRX.
Where would I be able to purchase the bushes at a reasonable cost ?
[This message has been edited by Dave Mitchell (edited 14-03-2000).]
I`m in the process of purchasing a new front sway bar 22mm,rear adjustable sway bar 22mm, ALK, and the sway bar links.
So while this is going to be fitted which bushes should I replace ?
Obviously the bushes for the above parts but is it worth while changing any others while this is being done ?
Please don`t say every one, I don`t want to spend too much.
Oh it`s a MY93 WRX.
Where would I be able to purchase the bushes at a reasonable cost ?
[This message has been edited by Dave Mitchell (edited 14-03-2000).]
14 March 2000, 06:57 PM
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Hi dave,
I also have been thinking of replacing some or all of the bushes with powerflex.
I'm not sure myself which would be the best to replace first but if your looking for a price guide try this site.
I also have been thinking of replacing some or all of the bushes with powerflex.
I'm not sure myself which would be the best to replace first but if your looking for a price guide try this site.
14 March 2000, 07:05 PM
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If you add up all the available bushes on the powerflex site excluding exhaust mounts it comes to £332.90 excluding VAT.
Is there a discount for a full kit or is that the price, does anybody know?
[This message has been edited by SteveM (edited 14-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by SteveM (edited 14-03-2000).]
Is there a discount for a full kit or is that the price, does anybody know?
[This message has been edited by SteveM (edited 14-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by SteveM (edited 14-03-2000).]
14 March 2000, 11:04 PM
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Dave
While PTFE bushes certainly do their job in a brilliant manner they were never designed for normal road cars, but primarily for rally and race cars where total composure and coherence of undercarriage movements and quick and accurate reactions to driver's commands is a total must.
All the teflon bushes (Powerflex or other) will inevitably reduce the elasticity in comparison to the hard rubber ones. On one hand this will improve handling as mentioned above; on the other, however, extended use on road cars without additional steps normally applied on rally and race cars will create much higher structural disturbances to the bodyshell. As with any mechanism. it can take only as much.
Needless to say, people with disagree. but I hope this helps at least a little bit.
regards
q.
While PTFE bushes certainly do their job in a brilliant manner they were never designed for normal road cars, but primarily for rally and race cars where total composure and coherence of undercarriage movements and quick and accurate reactions to driver's commands is a total must.
All the teflon bushes (Powerflex or other) will inevitably reduce the elasticity in comparison to the hard rubber ones. On one hand this will improve handling as mentioned above; on the other, however, extended use on road cars without additional steps normally applied on rally and race cars will create much higher structural disturbances to the bodyshell. As with any mechanism. it can take only as much.
Needless to say, people with disagree. but I hope this helps at least a little bit.
regards
q.
15 March 2000, 10:55 AM
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Come on Quattro - you sound like you're employed by one of the companies that sell crap rubber bushes for standard cars!
Powerflex bushes are an excellant way of getting better handling - ESPECIALLY if you are going to be replacing them anyway. I cannot see a standard bodyshell giving up the ghost any earlier just because the suspension bushes are a little stiffer! This would assume that the manufacturer had ZERO inbuilt safety factors in its design - a total no-no for a road car in todays litigous society.
As for which ones, the AR bar ones can be flet to make a difference. With FWD/4WD cars the front wishbones ones also make a big difference.[NB: if you're also thinking of the anti-lift kit from MRT/Scoobymania then remember that this replaces the rear bush on the front wishbone - so no need to replace it twice. And the front wishbone bush is b^%%$y difficult to remove - so said Subaru who did it for me!].
If you want a recommended list to replace (with preferential order) give PE a ring and they'll let you know. No real need, for the road, in replacing them all.
Cheers
Dave
Powerflex bushes are an excellant way of getting better handling - ESPECIALLY if you are going to be replacing them anyway. I cannot see a standard bodyshell giving up the ghost any earlier just because the suspension bushes are a little stiffer! This would assume that the manufacturer had ZERO inbuilt safety factors in its design - a total no-no for a road car in todays litigous society.
As for which ones, the AR bar ones can be flet to make a difference. With FWD/4WD cars the front wishbones ones also make a big difference.[NB: if you're also thinking of the anti-lift kit from MRT/Scoobymania then remember that this replaces the rear bush on the front wishbone - so no need to replace it twice. And the front wishbone bush is b^%%$y difficult to remove - so said Subaru who did it for me!].
If you want a recommended list to replace (with preferential order) give PE a ring and they'll let you know. No real need, for the road, in replacing them all.
Cheers
Dave
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15 March 2000, 01:59 PM
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Dave Mitchell
Didn't I tell you? hutton d answered your questions better than anyone
hutton d
No,I do not work for or sell either crap rubber bushes nor less crap ones made from other materials.
If you read my post there was no question of improved handling with the ptfe bushes. There are many other ways of improving the handling without risking long-term bodyshell deformations which you do not understand. But, what do I know?
Over and out to those who know.
q.
Didn't I tell you? hutton d answered your questions better than anyone
hutton d
No,I do not work for or sell either crap rubber bushes nor less crap ones made from other materials.
If you read my post there was no question of improved handling with the ptfe bushes. There are many other ways of improving the handling without risking long-term bodyshell deformations which you do not understand. But, what do I know?
Over and out to those who know.
q.
15 March 2000, 11:48 PM
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Since we're half onto the subject of improved handling, are there any other ways to improve it besides harder (or just new) bushes, bigger wheels and suspension kits?
Cheers,
Paul
Cheers,
Paul
16 March 2000, 08:55 AM
#10
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Hey Quattro!
Didn't mean to offend - just that email/BBS postings are rather impersonal.
Seriously though, I cannot see a road car bodyshell being deformed just by replacement bushes - even if they are stiffer. I could be enlightened though...
Dave
Didn't mean to offend - just that email/BBS postings are rather impersonal.
Seriously though, I cannot see a road car bodyshell being deformed just by replacement bushes - even if they are stiffer. I could be enlightened though...
Dave
16 March 2000, 09:31 AM
#11
Ecu Specialist
Having run Powerflex on a previous (non Scooby) car fitted with Chassis Dynamics springs and Koni top adjustable shocks lowered by 60 mm I would say ...
For .. more precision of steering, better directional stability and "tighter handling".
Against ... harsher ride, feels every bump, wheel bearings don't last very long, strut top bearings definately don't last very long. Car "jumped" round corners on rough surfaces. Bodyshell will be given more "shock".
Superb when car taken on the track though.
However IMHO the model/manufacturer of the car plays a big part .. my experiences were with Vauxhall 4x4 turbo which was 4 wheel drive.
Incidently if you fit ALK then the uprated bushes are supplied as part of the kit and there is no need to purchase more.
Bob
For .. more precision of steering, better directional stability and "tighter handling".
Against ... harsher ride, feels every bump, wheel bearings don't last very long, strut top bearings definately don't last very long. Car "jumped" round corners on rough surfaces. Bodyshell will be given more "shock".
Superb when car taken on the track though.
However IMHO the model/manufacturer of the car plays a big part .. my experiences were with Vauxhall 4x4 turbo which was 4 wheel drive.
Incidently if you fit ALK then the uprated bushes are supplied as part of the kit and there is no need to purchase more.
Bob
16 March 2000, 03:52 PM
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hutton_d
No offence taken, of course. As usual, Bob Rawle, hopefully, enlightened you and others contributing here the way he summed up the pros and cons.
My message tried to be simple: whatever you do, don't go too far for as long it should remain a road car for regular use.
all the best
q.
No offence taken, of course. As usual, Bob Rawle, hopefully, enlightened you and others contributing here the way he summed up the pros and cons.
My message tried to be simple: whatever you do, don't go too far for as long it should remain a road car for regular use.
all the best
q.
16 March 2000, 05:36 PM
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I have to agree with Quattro on this one.
I have done a considerable amount of research into the pros and cons of a variety of handling mods for my car, and was told by more than oneperson 'in the know' that ptfe bushes are not an ideal addition to a road car unless other components are also uprated.
Fine if it's mainly used on track, but as Bob says expect some trade-offs on the road.
Stef.
I have done a considerable amount of research into the pros and cons of a variety of handling mods for my car, and was told by more than oneperson 'in the know' that ptfe bushes are not an ideal addition to a road car unless other components are also uprated.
Fine if it's mainly used on track, but as Bob says expect some trade-offs on the road.
Stef.
17 March 2000, 10:45 AM
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Just my little bit,
There is a degree to which you ideally want to go on road cars. Changing every bush on your car for a PTFE replacement would be disastorous. It woulde be as hard as a rock and would destroy other standard associated components very quickly.
A couple of anti-roll bar bushes or track rod ends etc should be okay but dont overdo it and go the "full monty"
This is what i was told by AmD when i had my Golf Mk2 8v (on which i had spent many many thousands solely with them uprating/improving it) and they sell uprated bushes!
[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 17-03-2000).]
There is a degree to which you ideally want to go on road cars. Changing every bush on your car for a PTFE replacement would be disastorous. It woulde be as hard as a rock and would destroy other standard associated components very quickly.
A couple of anti-roll bar bushes or track rod ends etc should be okay but dont overdo it and go the "full monty"
This is what i was told by AmD when i had my Golf Mk2 8v (on which i had spent many many thousands solely with them uprating/improving it) and they sell uprated bushes!
[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 17-03-2000).]
19 March 2000, 06:01 AM
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Part of the problem with rubber bushes is that over time the loose their effectivness so if you where to replace all the original bushes with new rubber ones then the car would feel alot better and tighter.
The main downside of PTFE bushes is that they are less compliant as has been mentioned and will transmit more noise into the vehicle.
Having said that I am having to replace the diff carrier bushes on my Type R because the rubber ones have given up the ghost and the car ahs only done 15000 miles and this is not suspension related as these bushes dont carry any suspension loads before we start that discussion again!!!!
I am expecting the noise from the differential in side the car to increase but dont consider a year as an acceptable life for the original items.
Quattro,Bob and others who I have taken out in the car the noise that I thought was exahust rattle turns out to be the bushes which carry the diff and the large beam that runs across the width of the car. I am now begging to wonder how many other people think they have suspension knocks and bangs and it turns out to actually be these bushes that are the problem.
Darren
The main downside of PTFE bushes is that they are less compliant as has been mentioned and will transmit more noise into the vehicle.
Having said that I am having to replace the diff carrier bushes on my Type R because the rubber ones have given up the ghost and the car ahs only done 15000 miles and this is not suspension related as these bushes dont carry any suspension loads before we start that discussion again!!!!
I am expecting the noise from the differential in side the car to increase but dont consider a year as an acceptable life for the original items.
Quattro,Bob and others who I have taken out in the car the noise that I thought was exahust rattle turns out to be the bushes which carry the diff and the large beam that runs across the width of the car. I am now begging to wonder how many other people think they have suspension knocks and bangs and it turns out to actually be these bushes that are the problem.
Darren
19 March 2000, 08:50 AM
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Darren, if your assumption proves to be correct, it will be a great revelation and relief. Even more so, as I have driven and been driven in various UK and Japan Imprezas with standard suspension since our day at Donnington and noticed that similar noises, albeit to a lesser extent, could be heard.
Please keep me and the rest of us posted. I doubt, however, that 3000 miles of non-demanding driving could have killed the diff bushes on my car, but nothig is impossible. The other question is which new bushes to fit not to go overboard in stiffness.
regards
q.
Please keep me and the rest of us posted. I doubt, however, that 3000 miles of non-demanding driving could have killed the diff bushes on my car, but nothig is impossible. The other question is which new bushes to fit not to go overboard in stiffness.
regards
q.
11 April 2000, 03:57 PM
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Well after much grief for Pete at Scoobysport we managed to get the bushes replaced as the OE ones are in a metal housing that is a push fit into the diff support cross member!!!
The new ones have been fitted and yes there is some additional diff noise in the cabin now as I was expecting but it does seem to have sharpened up the gear change. Dont know quite how but thats what seems to have happened!
Seems that a few days after my car had been done another car turned up with a worse noise than mine and guess what the same bushes had gone on it!!
The bushes that we removed didnt appear to be badly worn or chewed up so thats a little strange.
Darren
The new ones have been fitted and yes there is some additional diff noise in the cabin now as I was expecting but it does seem to have sharpened up the gear change. Dont know quite how but thats what seems to have happened!
Seems that a few days after my car had been done another car turned up with a worse noise than mine and guess what the same bushes had gone on it!!
The bushes that we removed didnt appear to be badly worn or chewed up so thats a little strange.
Darren
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