Dougster

edited to include my own settings in a new thread

[Edited by Dougster - 5/2/2003 3:32:29 PM]

Subarussian

Hi there

I had the geometry checked by TSL last Friday. Here are the results:

FRONT camber L: -0.50
Front camber R: -0.24

Front toe L: +1.2mm
Front toe R: +0.7mm
Total front toe: +1.9mm

----------

REAR camber L: -1.24
Rear camber R: -1.25

Rear toe L: -0.5mm
Rear toe R: -0.8mm
Total rear toe: -1.3mm

These were set by a Subaru dealer. Looks like their settings were not very accurate, to say the least!

TSL re-set the camber to max at the front and rear (Front: 1.19 and 1.19; Rear: 1.25 and 1.27).

Then we had a discussion about the toe. Prodrive e-mailed me their reco (1mm toe-in) but TSL questioned if the toe in should be 1mm total at each axle OR 1mm at each wheel (i.e. 2mm total at each axle). I wasn't sure what Prodrive meant. TSL said that 2mm total sounded too much, and set it as follows:

Front: +0.8mm (0.4 and 0.4)
Rear: +0.2 (0.2 and 0.1) NB: they reversed it to PLUS from MINUS. Is this correct?

Do these settings look OK to you?

I am not questioning TSL's expertise but I am just surprised that their reco is so different from Prodrive.

I would really appreciate if you could let me know.

At the moment I can't comment on the car's new handling because it's been so wet, but I hadn't driven the car in the wet with the previous settings.

Many thanks for your help!

Claudius

Absolutely, these settings are BS. Check what I said in the "Understeer city" thread on here.


Just max all round isnt the right way either, since the rear influences the front.


Not sure either, but they probably meant 1mm each side. Which is too much.


Looks ok for a relatively neutral road set up.

One question however: how do you get + 0.2 when adding 0.2 and 0.1?


It isnt correct or incorrect to set the rear toe slightly positive like they did, it's a way of setting it which gives more safety margin, less oversteer, which is a good thing to do if you suddenly lift off on wet road surface, but not that great if your car always understeers like yours does, telling from the camber settings. When you dont know how to set the camber, it's definitely better to toe the rear in rather than out


Average to good I'd say.


Dont you find it funny how someone you dont know on a BBS has a better idea of geometry settings than Prodrive? LOL
Seriously: the settings these people give you are conservative settings for road use; they dont care if your car understeers, they dont want you to oversteer into a ditch or so. A bit like the air fuel ratios in the ECU, it's very conservative and safety oriented. Cant blame them, really. Just ignore them! LOL

Subarussian

Thanks Claudius! Yes, I'll be taking all advice with a large pinch of salt!

If you are not impressed with the TSL's settings, what do you think of the Prodrive reco (copied from Mike Wood's e-mail):

" Our recommended settings are as follows
Front camber should be set to the max you can get which will be around 1 degree 30 minutes, tracking should be 1mm of toe-in on each wheel front and rear."

Thanks!

Claudius

I think max camber front is correct, especially if it is limited to 1.3°.
I think 1mm toe in is a safety oriented setting, about what I would recommend if I had to recommend geometry settings to people I dont know. Cant blame them

They dont mention rear camber, why is that? I find that strange.

Claudius

Just noticed I was right in thinking they mean 1mm toe in EACH WHEEL in my first reply LOL

Claudius

Dont get me wrong, the toe settings are good, front camber is good, too, just the rear camber isnt. There's too much of it. Sadly, that gives more understeer, so although the rest is good, the whole thing isnt, if you know what I mean

Claudius

Anyway, I'll stop talking to myself now

See ya

Subarussian

Are you still there?

What do you think of 1mm at each wheel? Too much?

Claudius

It depends on your driving style, but zero toe all round is a good starting point. It gives more neutral handling. For better turn in with a more aggressive driving style, you could toe the front out a mm. That's what I have done. The rear is best neutral, really, as toeing it out could produce too much oversteer, from a certain point on anyway, (especially when lifting off) so keep the rear neutral to start with.

Subarussian

The PLUS values I've got, do they mean toe-IN or OUT?

I want to minimise understeer while keeping the balance neutral (no snappy oversteer).

Mungo

Rear camber probably wasn't mentioned as it's not adjustable on a standard Scoob.

Claudius

Plus means toe in, minus toe out.

Use less rear camber then!

Claudius

Doesnt that depend on the MY? (not sure)

Subarussian

TSL increased the rear camber by a couple of minutes, so I guess it is adjustable

Subarussian

Response from Prodrive:

"Our recommended settings are 1mm toe in on each wheel but this is a setting that is OK for most. Small deviations from these figures are OK, the main thing being that they are even and not toe-ing out so the car behaves the same in both directions. The amounts we are discussing are quite small, some people can't even measure it to such tight tolerances.

The rear camber is not adjustable other than the tolerance in the bolts, that's why we don't give a recommended figure".

Claudius, interesting point about rear camber not being adjustable. Sounds like it can't be neutral?

Leslie

The rear camber is adjustable within the bolt tolerances as Prodrive say. Mine was adjusted to be equal at just over 1 degree negative. The front cambers were set just a little more negative than that. The toe-ins on front and back are minimal. The bumpsteer was removed. The handling is absolutely neutral, next to no lift off oversteer. The understeer has gone-especially noticeable on tight corners. The handling in the wet is superb.

Les

Subarussian

Where have all the experts gone?

Andy Hamilton

Andrei

I think they have all nodded off after reading another one of your mammoth threads

Subarussian

Andy,

Get back to work!!!

A

Andy Hamilton

Claudius

If you cannot adjust the camber on the car in stock form, you will need to buy camber adjustment bolts or adjustable top mouts, but it can be done.

Subarussian

OK, had a chance to push it in the dry on familiar roads and can report that I am VERY pleased with the result!

Not sure what the Prodrive settings would've felt like. But it doesn't really matter because I am very happy with the way the car handles.

THANK YOU TSL!!!

Subarussian

It's taken me a few days to get used to the new set-up. But now I think it is truly brilliant!

Thought I should let you know

Claudius

I think I got mixed up there

UK300No75

Why don't you just drive it and see if you like it? If it understeers or oversteers too much then get it adjusted. All tuners need feedback because all drivers are different. Jacques Villneuve likes a very short throttle movement, Jenson Button likes lots. Both great drivers but different in their approach.

Personally too much understeer leaves me bored and I'm not skilled enough to have it dialled out.

We must remember that with Scoobs it really is the law of dimishing returns, because it handles so good to start with.

Sermon over - go drive the bloody thing.

Subarussian

I did! See my posts above!

ScoobyWhite

So whit all this talk what are the values that we sould fit to have a perfect neutral performance ;-) handling.

Thanks