Subarussian

Just copied from Prodrive site:

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The range combines a variety of enhancements to improve suspension, traction, feedback and control, especially suited to the more sporting driver.

Key Features:

Prodrive / Eibach uprated suspension kits with Bilstein dampers and Eibach springs

Prodrive / Eibach uprated spring kit

Applications:
Impreza: 93 - 00 MY(full suspension kit)


For more information please contact Subaru on 08705 100568 or visit the Subaru website at www.subaru.co.uk
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Does anyone know the exact nature of modifications on the Classic shape car? Can it be achieved using 'alternative' suppliers? What is the cost difference? Quality difference (I hear that many after market kits make the car handle worse than std when driving on A and B roads)?

Cheers for info.

[Edited by Subarussian - 2/2/2003 12:16:44 AM]

Subarussian

Checked out the Subaru web site for more info and prices but they don't have any info left for the Classic Scoob, only WRX and STi

Has anyone got the Prodrive kit?

Does anyone know how to "replicate" it?

ozzy

You can get the kit still from any Subaru Dealer.

Performance Subaru have it listed as £875+VAT on their price list.

Stefan

Subarussian

Well, after a lot of research I've decided not to go with any aftermarket options (too many problems with them and complaints), and get an official Prodrive upgrade (tailor-made for Impreza, 1000s of test miles, etc).

Apparently there are TWO types of Prodrive upgrades: standard (£1100) and professional (£1400). Has anyone got one of those on their car? Any comments?

Edcase

Problems and complaints? Such as?

I'm getting the new Eibachs fitted on Friday having heard nothing but good things from owners. Save yourself over a grand. Yopu can get adjustable Leda B coilovers for the sort of money you are talking!

ed

Subarussian

Ride too hard and bumpy even on the softest setting... Car becomes less drivable on B-roads... Only for track driving... Springs and dampers not working in harmony... Have to be re-built every so often... The list goes on

Subarussian

Has anyone here got one of those kits? Very quiet in here

Apparently the Professional kit is excellent, includes rear anti-roll bar, etc.

Comments from anyone with experience please.

JIM THEO

I had the Prof kit in my MY00 for a short period of 5 months but
bear in mind I am living in Greece where are the flatest(!!!) roads of the world, no smaller than 20cm potholes, bumps etc
Very good ride quality regarding how much sport the setup is, perfectly combined springs with dumpers but as I mentioned every suspension in Greece needs more travel than usualy to work right that the specific suspension doesn't have (only the height adjustable coilovers).
I don't mean in every case that lowers the car too much, only 2,5cm front and 1,8-2cm rear (which is perfect compromise IMVHO for every Subaru old or new shape and gives lower centre of gravity).
You can't "distinguish" it but you'll go faster at least 20-30km in corners while the car is "predictable" due to smaller rear anti roll bar, steering is more lively and understeer is by far less than before if you have also Prodrive settings.
Very good setup if you live in a place with good road surfaces, comfortable enough for it's hardness, downside is little bit expensive, with the same money you can get say 3rd generation DMS Golds.
A friend with the nick name Elias has the suspension currently, hope he will post his opinion here.
Hope this helps you mate.
Cheers
JIM

Subarussian

Thanks Jim. So what did you change to after Prodrive?

I just got an e-mail from TSL about their range of suspension upgrades. The most expensive one is £770 all in and includes:

Full Eibach Pro Kit Springs
Power Flex Rear Anti Roll Bar Drop links
Front Strut Brace
Rear Strut Brace
Plus geometry set-up

I wonder how this set up will compare with the Prodrive Prof kit? As far as I can see the key difference is that the TSL kit doesn't include Bilstein dampers but does include a rear strut brace. So what does it mean in terms of handling?

The price difference is huge - £770 vs £1400 - so if I go for TSL I'll have money left for an Ecutek

Any comments?

Many thanks!

Subarussian

I guess I should add that my car is MY00 UK (old shape). Not sure if this will have some implications on the "best" option for me. I talked to Mike Wood at the Autosport show last month and he said that a 3 year old suspension is "tired". So what are the key components that have to be re-freshed? E.g. do I need new dampers AS WELL AS new springs?

JIM THEO

If your dampers are three years olds, yes, it means they need replacement in every case, so can't compare the two options Prodrive with TSL setups.
I understand that Prodrive suspension is quite expensive but as I said is very carefully designed and combined.
Of course in your case I would prefer to buy the new DMS 40 Golds(last revision) with the same money but this is my choice, others may not agree.
Cheers
JIM

Subarussian

Thanks Jim.

"Carefully designed and combined" is key for me. I am not sure that this can be said about all of the aftermarket alternatives. Well I don't know...

mutant_matt

For the Prodrive kind of money I would deffo go for fully adjustable aftermarket coilovers and get them properly setup at somewhere like Powerstation or TSL.

Presumably you could save yourself a fair amount of money and buy some new OE dampers and some Eibach Pro Kit springs instead as this would a fair improvement over standard and IMHO, is at least as good a ride as standard with better handling.

Also, I don't know if this is a common issue but a friend of mine has gone through 4 rear Prodrive Bilstein dampers in only a few thousand miles....

Matt

markd

hi all..can some explain why is the suspension is tired after 3 years as mike wood said ...dosent this depends on milage the car has done as well. ive seen cars 5/6 years old and the suspension is still ok...mark

darkblueturbo

i'm saving money and not going full suspension setup (yet) but I'm getting the geometry setup from TSL on Monday afternoon and I can't wait. Have heard SO many good things.

If I still want more after this I'll bung on an Eibach ProKit and see where to go from there.

Personally, I'm not sure about fully adjustable coilovers, like Leda. Sure they're AWESOME reading what everyone who's used them thinks but I don't think I'd ever know if I had the best available setup. Plus you'd want to stop and adjust everytime the lanes got bumpier/softer. It's too tempting to tinker when something like that's there and if you get it wrong (I probably would) you've spent a lot of dough on something not as effective as the standard.

Also, a note on the rear drop links... I read somewhere (please note I have no experience of this) that the point where the back end loses grip isn't as progressive with these as the standard ones. As they're stiffer they don't flex as much. With the standard ones you get a progressive letting go of grip as they fully load themselves up, the alloy ones are stiffer and so go from fully loaded to let go without much warning as there's virtually no flex in them.
Good for track - dangerous for road.
Bear in mind I could be talking poo, here!!

Have fun.

Subarussian

The car has done 45k miles - don't know if it's enough to get it tired or if it's just marketing b***cks to make me buy their kit.

mutant_matt

Theoretically you are right that they don't flex so the transistion is faster but the difference is small. "Dangerous for the road" is certainly a load of rubbish (with respect and in the nicest possible way !!!!) and the improvement they offer in feel and consistency is well worth the change.

I certainly wouldn't go back to the OE ones!!!!

Matt

darkblueturbo

subarussian - they're very busy up at TSL. I got a reply from Paul after about a week. They did send me a note saying they're very clogged up with e-mail enquiries.

I phoned and spoke to Graham (Paul's Dad I believe??) and he booked me in for Monday.
Very friendly, helpful and patient of my dumb questions on the phone.

I'll report back in a new thread and post a link to it hear after I've driven round all those lovely lanes on the way home. I'm NOT using the M1 after a gemoetry setup! Probably about Tuesday afternoon. Taking the car to local body shop Tuesday morning to leave her there to get the skirts colour coded

Good weekend all. Be rapid and safe

Claudius

I bought a 97 MY Impreza two weeks ago; it came with Bilstein dampers and Eibach springs. A very bouncy setup: hard over speed bumps and the like, and rather soft on turn in (lots of roll). I dont know the exact spring rates, but it's basically set up the wrong way around, a bit like a BMW "sport suspension pack". Only hard at low speed to give people who dont drive hard the impression that it is hard or sporty or whatever.

Not sure what your "Prodrive" kit is, how it's set up or anything (couldnt find info on www.subaru.co.uk, have you got a direct URL?), but I doubt that you get a good deal from Prodrive. Just look at the PPP and the £750 downpipe

You can get Bilstein shock absorbers and springs to suit (or rather vice versa) with the damper set up to your specification for a similar or probably lower price (how much is the Prodrive kit anyway, you only mentioned the TSL kit price, braces and springs).

So what was your question anyway? I guess you'd like a perfect suspension setup for a very low price? The only way I know to get that is to buy a Proflex or equivalent kit used and reconditioned or be VERY lucky like I was and find a set of Proflex, new, from a rally rental place that goes bankrupt. I think the guy has another set, but he probably sold that by now (he put an ad in a rally magazine). Speaking about rally magazines, why dont you check one and see if they have that type of suspension for sale somewhere?

Subarussian

Claudius, thanks for your post!

The prodrive kit consists of Bilstein dampers and Eibach springs, plus a rear anti-roll bar and full geometry set up (max negative camber, 1mm toe-in front and rear). The best price I found is £1400 all inc fitted.

TSL Phase 5 includes Eibach springs, strut braces front and rear, plus geo set-up. No dampers. Price £700ish.

One of my questions is whether it makes sense to replace the springs but leave std dampers (with 45k on the clock)? Prodrive told me that the dampers are "tired". TSL told me that the standard MY00 dampers are excellent and don't need to be replaced.

My main question is how to make my car feel like "new". I've had it from new for 3 years and going to keep it for another 2-3 years. I want to make it feel like a new car even though I am keeping the same one. Hope this makes sense I use it mainly on the road and do about 15k miles per year. So I want a sporty set up for fast road but don't need the 'ultimate' suspension which is only good for track days.

What do you reckon?

Claudius

I think 750 for a set of springs and strut braces is too expensive for what you get, and that 1400 for Bilsteins with springs is too expensive too. A very good friend of mine got a set of modified Bilsteins with springs, adjusted ride height, custom compression and anti roll bars for 1300 a year ago on his S4. The Bilstein are not standard units but the 40mm struts adapted to the Audi, a one off job.

If you just want new suspension, then yopu could buy new suspension for next to nothing from a rally team: they usually buy new cars and put the suspension on a shelf and forget about it. I have seen some throw brand new suspension away when they had 50 dampers; they dont need or want them. Which means you could probably pick up brand new suspension for your car for £100.

Proflex or equivalent are not hard, they are only as hard as the springs or as you set them. They just damp fantastically. You can change the damper speed from softer than a Mercedes to rock hard.

Claudius

Prodrive are right, the dampers will be tired, probably VERY tired after that many miles. The oil in them degrades, the rubber and metal parts wear and the damping degrades.

Claudius

Where did you get the idea from that Proflex or equivalent are only good for track days? In fact, they are overkill for track days and are probably much better for road use; in fact, tracks are usually very good smooth tarmac where you could do with just hard springs, when the road has holes, bumps, irregularities in it that need absorbing. What makes competition suspension so good is the excellent absorption, which is what you need for bad roads.

darkblueturbo

subarussian - and anyone else who's interested. I've just posted here about the TSL Geometry setup I had done today.

Bear in mind I've still got standard suspension with 28000 miles on it... it's awesome.

Do yourself a favour and go see TSL to get this done. It's surprising how much difference it actually does make! Love it!!

Subarussian

Cheers, DBT. I posted my thoughts there...

Claudius - I guess I don't want just a new suspension. I want a new and better suspension, or rather a better handling car.

Prodrive is a safe route - but as you said, very expensive. However it gives peace of mind that the dampers and springs will be matched perfectly. It is also covered by their warranty (60k miles I think).

I read a lot on this board about different aftermarket kits and people complaining that the ride (on REAL road) is too hard and bumpy and that they actually drive slower than with the std suspension. Also there is a need to re-build it quite regularly. That's what makes me worried about the aftermarket route.

The TSL options don't include dampers. You are the second person today who told me that after 45k miles my dampers would be knackered However Paul @ TSL assured me otherwise (and said that they would check them when they change the springs). My concern is that even if the dampers are OK now they will get "tired" in the near future and because I plan to keep the car for another 45k miles it may be a false economy NOT to change the dampers now...

My question now is (and I think this is how this whole thread had started ) do I go the Prodrive route or can I "re-create" their kit by buying the parts independently, i.e. buy Eibach springs and Bilstein dampers? Or are they exclusive to Prodrive, do you know?

Claudius

What did they tell you what the suspension is set up for? "Fast road", "track", something else? Does it lower the car?

Again, how hard the suspension is depends to 90% on the springs. When you see what kind of springs the Leda guys on here run, I am not surprised that they find it hard or jumpy! You can set Proflex with 50 or 60 N/mm springs SOFTER THAN A GOLF and that's a fact!

Not sure what you mean by rebuild, but you'll have to get an oil change every two years approximately and have the gas pressure checked, possibly a rubber part replaced. They charge me £25 per damper for that here.

I think your dampers are not damaged, but that doesnt mean that they damp well. In fact given their dual tube design and diameter, age, etc, they arent much more than two weak tubes held together by a soft spring and a few bolts. And putting harder springs on there will give you less roll, but not good damping. Depends what you want, really.

I know that you can get springs made to specification for about £50 a spring. You can specify length, diameter, rate, etc. and get the same spring as on the Prodrive kit. And you could put that on Bilstein dampers. I doubt that Prodrive have Bilstein adjust the damping for their spring, but it could be that their damper isnt a standard damper. The thing is, if you call them and ask "Do you have Bilstein specially adjust their dampers for your kit?" they will no doubt say "yes" so you buy from them. Ideally, you'd ask an insider or something.

Subarussian

From the Prodrive leaflet:

Prodrive Professional kit: uprated dampers, springs and rear anti-roll bar; lowers the height by approx 20 mm; recommened fitting time 4 hours including geometry. This kit represents the ultimate specification for drivers who are prepared to sacrifice some ride comfort for more sporting handling. The driver will benefit from much improved steering response, minimal body roll, reduced understeer and bennter high speed body control. Most effective with 17" tyres. Geo settings: max equal negative camber front, 1mm toe-in front and rear. RRP £1,140 (inc VAT but not fitting)...

What do you make of that?

Are there any insiders on this board reading this?

In the meantime I've just had a response from Graham Goode who offer 3 options:

1. Eibach road springs
2. Eibachs plus Koni inserts into existing OE dampers
3. Eibachs plus STi dampers

Any comments on this set up?

Ta!

superstring

Hi All

Subarussian: I've had the "Standard" Prodrive susupension kit on my MY98 Impreza for almost 4 years now (~27k miles). This kit was also badged the "Performance" kit by Prodrive and, for some reason, is also known as the Prodrive "GT" kit over here (to distinguish it from the Professional kit). It was developed around 1996/1997.

The roads over here are comparable to your A and B roads and I bought the kit based in part on very favourable reviews I read in some British car mags (Evo and Car come to mind). I wanted improved handling in the "real world", not a track day special that was uncomfortable or worse on less-than-perfect surfaces. The Standard kit has measured up to or exceeded my expectations on all counts.

My wife and I have taken several long driving vacations and the car is not timesome at all, but, at the same time, handles superbly. One thing that continues to amaze me is how, the faster you drive on your B road equivalents, the more secure the car feels. I would NOT want a stiffer setup.

In case you're interested, I did a rough calculation of spring rates based on measurements I took off the springs before installation and they are approx. 180 lbs/in. front and 150 lbs/in. rear (although there's some progression in the rear).

Also, for what it's worth, Evo magazine reviewed the Professional kit when it was first introduced and felt that it was too stiff for alot of B road driving, and, ultimately, was not an improvement over the original kit in handling terms, even though ultimate high speed stability was improved on smooth surfaces. (I have the magazine around here somewhere and could get you the issue number if you'd like to look it up).

Hope this helps.

John

Claudius

To me, "uprated dampers" means uprated compared to the standard ones, ie. Bilsteins. "Springs" doesnt mean anything unless they tell you the rates and progressivity. The "uprated rear anti-roll bar" will stiffen the rear and thus dial out some understeer. A friend of mine just got the rear anti roll bar and liked the handling much better. You could always start with that. 17 inch is indeed the best size for road use (less weight, more tyre absorption due to slightly higher side walls than 18).

Subarussian

John,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Please do let me know the issue number.
I thought the only difference between the Performance and Professional kits was the anti-roll bar. But may be the whole set up is stiffer in the Pro kit?