Sigma or Clifford
14 February 2002, 04:44 PM
#1
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Im just about to get my wrx from belgium and being an EU car, it doesnt have any security on it. Ive looked at the standard Sigma Cat 1 alarm and also a Clifford 600 which claims to do all sorts of wizzy things, but it's expensive.
Can someone help me decide, or confuse me more???
Can someone help me decide, or confuse me more???
14 February 2002, 04:57 PM
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Go for a Clifford. You cant beat a clifford. A Sigma would cost bout £350. A cliffor concept 500 is £550. The 500 also gives proximity sensor, Blaxkjax system & autoclosure. Definitely worth the extra £200.
I was stuck for choice between the 600 + 500 & after a long chat with Max in Leeds. Have decided to go for 500.
I was stuck for choice between the 600 + 500 & after a long chat with Max in Leeds. Have decided to go for 500.
14 February 2002, 08:48 PM
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TCD - where's your's coming from? Bet you can hardly wait. Mine's due for the 02 plate, and the anticipation/excitement is killing....
14 February 2002, 09:38 PM
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TCD,
It's very important that from a warranty poiny of view and future resale value that you install a Sigma M30. I have installed hundreds of these units and they are very reliable. I have gone to the trouble of fabricating brackets to pattern of the Subaru items to enable precise location of the components. This cannot be done with the Clifford, because of the out dated component construction. The Sigma unit is streets ahead in terms of quality and has all the security benefits you are likely to need and at half the cost. By spending double the amount on an alarm you will just close the gap between what you have paid in Belgium & what you would pay here. Sorry Clifford Boyz !
It's very important that from a warranty poiny of view and future resale value that you install a Sigma M30. I have installed hundreds of these units and they are very reliable. I have gone to the trouble of fabricating brackets to pattern of the Subaru items to enable precise location of the components. This cannot be done with the Clifford, because of the out dated component construction. The Sigma unit is streets ahead in terms of quality and has all the security benefits you are likely to need and at half the cost. By spending double the amount on an alarm you will just close the gap between what you have paid in Belgium & what you would pay here. Sorry Clifford Boyz !
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14 February 2002, 10:20 PM
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Nick - what difference does installing a Sigma make to your warranty?
After all, the vehicle warranty will be valid throughout Europe, but will be administered by Subaru Belgium. And there's no standard alarm on EU origin cars anyway. Surely the type of alarm fitted will have no bearing on the validty of the cover that Subaru Belgium offer.
After all, the vehicle warranty will be valid throughout Europe, but will be administered by Subaru Belgium. And there's no standard alarm on EU origin cars anyway. Surely the type of alarm fitted will have no bearing on the validty of the cover that Subaru Belgium offer.
15 February 2002, 07:13 AM
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Nick@avs
Its funny that you have installed hundreds of Sigma alarms and suddenly they are the best alarm in the world
I doubt whether a qualified Clifford, Toad or similar installer would agree that they are out dated and behind in terms of quality.
As far as the warranty implication goes, that is utter cr4p. I have spoken to IM about this when I imported my MY01 and as long as the alarm is installed by a reputable fitter (preferably VSIB registered) then they do not have problem. Are you VSIB registered? The alarm on the UK model is fitted in this country when the vehicle comes into port and not by Subaru themselves. Therefore the alarm has a seperate warranty cover by I.M. A Clifford or whatever when fitted by an alaram engineer here would have its own warranty.
Harry
If you could get yourself to a local meet you could see what alarms people have fitted and decide which features and stuff you like. I have had many different alarms but have now settled with Clifford, it is the only alarm I have ever had that has not broken. The toys are excellent too.
Nathan
Its funny that you have installed hundreds of Sigma alarms and suddenly they are the best alarm in the world
I doubt whether a qualified Clifford, Toad or similar installer would agree that they are out dated and behind in terms of quality.As far as the warranty implication goes, that is utter cr4p. I have spoken to IM about this when I imported my MY01 and as long as the alarm is installed by a reputable fitter (preferably VSIB registered) then they do not have problem. Are you VSIB registered? The alarm on the UK model is fitted in this country when the vehicle comes into port and not by Subaru themselves. Therefore the alarm has a seperate warranty cover by I.M. A Clifford or whatever when fitted by an alaram engineer here would have its own warranty.
Harry
If you could get yourself to a local meet you could see what alarms people have fitted and decide which features and stuff you like. I have had many different alarms but have now settled with Clifford, it is the only alarm I have ever had that has not broken. The toys are excellent too.
Nathan
15 February 2002, 07:35 AM
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Nathan,
I didn't say fitting a spurious alarm would invalidate your warranty, the case I was making if there was an electrical fault on the vehicle it may be put down to the alarm installation. I frequently get called out by dealers who ask me to disconnect alarms that have been installed poorly and the dealers feels it contributed to a fault. I respect your decision to purchase a Clifford, but my judgement is based on over 20 years working in the Vehicle Security Industry. I am not saying either that Sigma is the best alarm in the world, it's just makes the best sense to install it for this application. (Horses for courses !)
I didn't say fitting a spurious alarm would invalidate your warranty, the case I was making if there was an electrical fault on the vehicle it may be put down to the alarm installation. I frequently get called out by dealers who ask me to disconnect alarms that have been installed poorly and the dealers feels it contributed to a fault. I respect your decision to purchase a Clifford, but my judgement is based on over 20 years working in the Vehicle Security Industry. I am not saying either that Sigma is the best alarm in the world, it's just makes the best sense to install it for this application. (Horses for courses !)
15 February 2002, 11:07 AM
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All I'll say is that IMHO brand isn't nearly as important as the quality of the install.
You could have the most feature packed alarm installed by a muppet which would be absolutely useless compared to any cat 1 alarm installed by someone with a clue.
Find an installer you trust. Look for recommendations as there's no better advert than a satisfied customer.
Personally, I like blackjax and the wireless fuel immobiliser which is why I went for clifford. Plus they've been on every car I've for about 8 years and I haven't had a problem. YMMV.
If my favourite installer switched brands, I daresay the next alarm I had wouldn't be a Clifford. But as he hasn't, it will be
Nick.
You could have the most feature packed alarm installed by a muppet which would be absolutely useless compared to any cat 1 alarm installed by someone with a clue.
Find an installer you trust. Look for recommendations as there's no better advert than a satisfied customer.
Personally, I like blackjax and the wireless fuel immobiliser which is why I went for clifford. Plus they've been on every car I've for about 8 years and I haven't had a problem. YMMV.
If my favourite installer switched brands, I daresay the next alarm I had wouldn't be a Clifford. But as he hasn't, it will be
Nick.
15 February 2002, 11:11 AM
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Nick,
You ought to sell your bracket to Subaru UK (IM), as they completely messed up making theirs! They used the cheapest metal possible which fatigues, snaps and allows the alarm to rattle around in the engine bay attached by its loom. Not clever.
I know where you're coming from with warranty, as every garage uses the excuse "it's because of your alarm/immobiliser" for any fault, even if it's a leaking boot, but I wanted something out of the ordinary.
If you make a million from the improved bracket, remember your advisors
Cheers,
Nick.
You ought to sell your bracket to Subaru UK (IM), as they completely messed up making theirs! They used the cheapest metal possible which fatigues, snaps and allows the alarm to rattle around in the engine bay attached by its loom. Not clever.
I know where you're coming from with warranty, as every garage uses the excuse "it's because of your alarm/immobiliser" for any fault, even if it's a leaking boot, but I wanted something out of the ordinary.
If you make a million from the improved bracket, remember your advisors
Cheers,
Nick.
15 February 2002, 11:41 AM
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Nick,
The point you make about the bracket is perfectly correct. This applies to "the last impreza" model. Subaru/IM had a bracket manufactured which was secured to the o/s suspension turret, utilising the existing tappings. This bracket had no torsional rigidity with the result that a lot snapped. This is one area that I chose to change the installation. There are often ways I can change an installation to improve the factory fit installation, however it is very difficult to implement even small changes at a line fit level. These changes often take the form of a recall. It maybe wise to check with your local dealer if you have a car with one of these brackets installed on your car. The siren on the new Impreza is located in a different position.
The point you make about the bracket is perfectly correct. This applies to "the last impreza" model. Subaru/IM had a bracket manufactured which was secured to the o/s suspension turret, utilising the existing tappings. This bracket had no torsional rigidity with the result that a lot snapped. This is one area that I chose to change the installation. There are often ways I can change an installation to improve the factory fit installation, however it is very difficult to implement even small changes at a line fit level. These changes often take the form of a recall. It maybe wise to check with your local dealer if you have a car with one of these brackets installed on your car. The siren on the new Impreza is located in a different position.
15 February 2002, 01:50 PM
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OK, a little out of date...........but I had a Clifford concept 50 on my previous car..........what a pile of crap!!!!!!!!! Could open door & never went off, ultrasonic was bollox, siren filled with water!!! (had to fit a sandwich bag around it!!), did not go off when battery disconnected!!!!!!
I had the siren in bits once so I could dry it out!! Being a qualified electrical engineer, I have seen the odd bit of shoddy work, but the quality of the PCB in the siren was utter crap!!!
I'll never but Clifford again!!!
I had the siren in bits once so I could dry it out!! Being a qualified electrical engineer, I have seen the odd bit of shoddy work, but the quality of the PCB in the siren was utter crap!!!
I'll never but Clifford again!!!
15 February 2002, 01:58 PM
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Been out of the office since lunchtime yesterday. This is the most replies Ive ever had to one of my posts. Thanks to everyone for the advise.
The car's coming from garage Troch in Belguim through Keyring cars. Everything has gone swimmingly at the moment and the car's due next week. Bit disappointed I had to let my MY98 go to a dealer, but there you go.
I think the Clifford Concept 600 is possibly the best one I can get. Any advisory prices - Ive been quote around £600 including fitting. I like the idea that I can have the extra feature of starting the car remotely.
Tim
The car's coming from garage Troch in Belguim through Keyring cars. Everything has gone swimmingly at the moment and the car's due next week. Bit disappointed I had to let my MY98 go to a dealer, but there you go.
I think the Clifford Concept 600 is possibly the best one I can get. Any advisory prices - Ive been quote around £600 including fitting. I like the idea that I can have the extra feature of starting the car remotely.
Tim
15 February 2002, 04:16 PM
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TCD
Remote engine starting is not cheap on this particular car. The reason for this is that the factory immobiliser is coded through the ECU. Basically you need a key in the ignition to start it. The only way to get round this AFAIK is to have one of your keys taken apart and the internal chip hardwired. The ECU will be fooled into thinking the key is in the ignition and then Clifford Intellistart will then be able to start the engine.
Even though the chip is then hardwired you still have immobiliser protection through the alarm with the wireless fuel guard etc.
As Chirak mentions the blackjax is superb. Tested it and it works every time. The other good point is that it will auto lock and unlock your doors when driving.
Don't forget that for thatcham cat 1 status your alarm should be installed by a VSIB registered installer. Some Insurance companies ask to see a certificate so best to check first. Most companies that are registered are on this sitehttp://www.vsib.co.uk
Good luck with your car mate, got mine through Keyring and its been superb.
Nathan..
P.S Not associated with clifford just a happy customer.
Remote engine starting is not cheap on this particular car. The reason for this is that the factory immobiliser is coded through the ECU. Basically you need a key in the ignition to start it. The only way to get round this AFAIK is to have one of your keys taken apart and the internal chip hardwired. The ECU will be fooled into thinking the key is in the ignition and then Clifford Intellistart will then be able to start the engine.
Even though the chip is then hardwired you still have immobiliser protection through the alarm with the wireless fuel guard etc.
As Chirak mentions the blackjax is superb. Tested it and it works every time. The other good point is that it will auto lock and unlock your doors when driving.
Don't forget that for thatcham cat 1 status your alarm should be installed by a VSIB registered installer. Some Insurance companies ask to see a certificate so best to check first. Most companies that are registered are on this sitehttp://www.vsib.co.uk
Good luck with your car mate, got mine through Keyring and its been superb.
Nathan..
P.S Not associated with clifford just a happy customer.
15 February 2002, 04:58 PM
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People make me laugh on this site.
Think they know it all!
They dont know jack sh-t about Alarms.
Whats the point of them giving out advise ??
people are getting wrongly informed!
Think they know it all!
They dont know jack sh-t about Alarms.
Whats the point of them giving out advise ??
people are getting wrongly informed!
15 February 2002, 05:12 PM
#18
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If you know better, why not elucidate for us? Share the knowledge and all that.
(Here's a hint: posting a link to your website ain't the way to educate people)
[Edited by chiark - 2/15/2002 5:12:59 PM]
(Here's a hint: posting a link to your website ain't the way to educate people)
[Edited by chiark - 2/15/2002 5:12:59 PM]
15 February 2002, 07:07 PM
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Do you need me to spell it out for you ?
S E C U R I T Y . This means that you get to know **** all !
unless you you are in the field pal !
"You could be a car thief after all"
S E C U R I T Y . This means that you get to know **** all !
unless you you are in the field pal !
"You could be a car thief after all"
15 February 2002, 09:25 PM
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agree fully with Chiak it's the quailty of install that makes for a good relailbe alarm 90% of the time. I have worked in the market for many years man and boy. have fitted most brands and work for 3 alarm manufactures and supply the one i have found most relailbe.the best test for any alarm systems is when used by the large fleet mangers i.e lease plan phh avis. this soon sort the man from the boys.
thanks Adrian
thanks Adrian
18 February 2002, 09:16 AM
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So, no-one knows anything about alarms unless they're taken into the clandestine bretheren of the Alarm Fitter's union?
People on here try to help each other out. If we do give out pony information, why not correct us in a helpful way so everyone can learn. Plus it may build your name...
I do realise that security is somewhat about obscurity, but surely you can mail the people who get things wrong, or receive a wrong answer and post a brief summary?
Nick.
PS - there's more than two alarms in the Clifford range.
People on here try to help each other out. If we do give out pony information, why not correct us in a helpful way so everyone can learn. Plus it may build your name...
I do realise that security is somewhat about obscurity, but surely you can mail the people who get things wrong, or receive a wrong answer and post a brief summary?
Nick.
PS - there's more than two alarms in the Clifford range.
18 February 2002, 11:28 AM
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Next question - ultra sonics or proxy sensor? This seems to be the fundimental difference in operating principle.
I know how the ultra sonics work, but can you adjust the sensitivity of a proxy sensor. I dont want to have to go outside into my office carpark everyday to turn the alarm off when someone has simply walked passed the car.
Good job Ive still got a week until the new wrx comes.
More health debate required please.
Thanks
Tim
I know how the ultra sonics work, but can you adjust the sensitivity of a proxy sensor. I dont want to have to go outside into my office carpark everyday to turn the alarm off when someone has simply walked passed the car.
Good job Ive still got a week until the new wrx comes.
More health debate required please.
Thanks
Tim
18 February 2002, 12:54 PM
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Well, I'll get this wrong no doubt but I'll have a go.
The prox sensor that I know of (Clifford) works using microwaves, which are not affected by breezes, wind, ... unlike ultrasonics. So prox sensors are suitable for cabriolets, or leaving windows down.
One disadvantage of prox sensors is that they are affected by lumps of metal, and that the field is radiated uniformly from the sensor. So, you set your prox up to watch properly over your car...
...then when you open your metal up'n'over garage door, the alarm goes off.
The clifford dual zone proximity sensor has, as it's name implies, two zones which have independent sensitivity settings. The external zone triggers a warning sound and the internal triggers full alarm. My external zone is set pretty tight to the car and only ever chirps when someone really is too close to the car. Useful for the work carpark as people avoid walking next to it now. Bad for normal carparks as I can see someone getting a fright when opening the door and jerking their door open . The external and internal zones are overridable each time you set the alarm.
Swings and roundabouts, IMHO. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages.
Disclaimer: I am wrong as usual and know nothing. But I'll share my ignorance.
Nick.
The prox sensor that I know of (Clifford) works using microwaves, which are not affected by breezes, wind, ... unlike ultrasonics. So prox sensors are suitable for cabriolets, or leaving windows down.
One disadvantage of prox sensors is that they are affected by lumps of metal, and that the field is radiated uniformly from the sensor. So, you set your prox up to watch properly over your car...
...then when you open your metal up'n'over garage door, the alarm goes off.
The clifford dual zone proximity sensor has, as it's name implies, two zones which have independent sensitivity settings. The external zone triggers a warning sound and the internal triggers full alarm. My external zone is set pretty tight to the car and only ever chirps when someone really is too close to the car. Useful for the work carpark as people avoid walking next to it now. Bad for normal carparks as I can see someone getting a fright when opening the door and jerking their door open
. The external and internal zones are overridable each time you set the alarm.Swings and roundabouts, IMHO. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages.
Disclaimer: I am wrong as usual and know nothing. But I'll share my ignorance.
Nick.
18 February 2002, 01:28 PM
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I had the same decision when I got my car.
In the end I decided on the sigma route with full closure for £400 quid. Saved me £200ish on the equivalent clifford.
I didnt really think it was worth spending money on the extra features that the clifford offered. As I dont need remote engine start or blackjax.
Just wanted a decent CAT1 alarm for the insurance.
In the end I decided on the sigma route with full closure for £400 quid. Saved me £200ish on the equivalent clifford.
I didnt really think it was worth spending money on the extra features that the clifford offered. As I dont need remote engine start or blackjax.
Just wanted a decent CAT1 alarm for the insurance.
18 February 2002, 01:46 PM
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Chaik if you read my reply i agreed with you and again the poxsy senors do work as said. put poxsy senors can be set to sens out side of the car.This then causes false alarms and then the world and he's wife sl@g them off. Hence a good installer will set the system up better.Also a good installer will be able to anwser any questions about there brand of alarm and have good knowlage of most alarms as they mostly work in the same manor
18 February 2002, 06:01 PM
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Chaik no offence taken always happy to advise on any alarm problem. But any details must be on a one to one bases or anyone could workout the tyre of security on said car i.e location of alarm cpu. Biggest mistake made on sigma alarms is the s/No is on the siren
thanks Adrian
thanks Adrian