Tommitchelldrum

My Impreza Turbo 2000 has a sigma alarm which I believe is a standard one for all turbos?! Not sure.

Anyway, I was wondering if it was any good or if it was worth splashing out on s Clifford or something similar?

Jesus H

bin it and get something with decent sensors.

Have a look at the Clifford Concept 650 range or even the Viper 480XV/500XV

Tommitchelldrum

Is it really that bad?

It seems to go off when you put something in the car with the window down.

Also, what is the number panel in the glove box for?

OLLIeRB5

They are very well fitted, not massive spec but very very reliable systems. Ive been installing for six odd years as well as installing for subaru via international motors.

The g5 clifford range as well as other directed products are notcas reliable as the older g4 series

Devious

iTrader: (4)

My 2001 classic came with the sigma alarm too... didnt seem to bad until you discover the fact you cant always start or lock your car in some places....

so 24hours after my first rolling car up the road to start it session... it was removed and fitted with a clifford G5 650 mk2.

Spot on

Jesus H

If thats what you think then stick to fitting Sigma's.

The sigma's fitted to the uk are NOT very well fitted. It takes about 2 min to bypass the cuts and the positioning of the brain makes them easy to get into.

The clifford G5's are extremely reliable but it depends on the fitter more than the product. If your getting problems with a clifford then it's probably not been fitted correctly. Only have them fitted by specialist Clifford installers. Most other inferior brand installers don't have the neccessary skills required to install them properly.

Manta Ray

Scare mongering to sell some aftermarket alarms Jesus H? How is business?

I have to take up on this post as all UK supplied models since 2001 have the alarm harness pre-wired into the vehicle harness at the factory - is the factory harness not up to your standards then.... or are you just making flipent comments on something you clearly know little about?

The import centre fitted systems using the pre-wired factory wiring are streets ahead on quality than your average aftermarket install.
The systems meet Thatcham approval for Original Equipment installations which is sight more specific and stringent than it is for aftermarket installations ie siren location, bonnet switch protection etc... but I doubt you know that.

Each model is developed in conjunction with the factory engineers and with Thatcham's input. Thatcham then inspect and test all aspects of the installation prior to a model's launch.

No aftermarket installation is required to undergo such an inspection, so the quality of installation is second to none.

Enough said.

Airwolf69

The key pad allows you to arm/unarm the alarm manually, but you will need to know the pin number. It allows you change the pin number and various other settings of the alarm. If you have a folder than the handbook came in, the alarm guide is usually in the back.

Jesus H

Sigma Sam rises from the ashes.........

The great thing about the "factory wiring" that you use is that once you know how to defeat one car, you can do them all. That's a great system for security. Now they are using the factory wiring does that mean you have more time to put in some extra fixings? The last 1-2 we have removed have only been held in with one bolt.

Have sigma managed to sort out their remote problems yet? Or are you still blaming the outside influences of the Police, Ambulance, Phone masts etc.....

Business is booming mate.. as long as subaru are fitting sigma's the aftermarket business will be great. Did you know that remote start doesn't affect you thatcham approval?

Lord Jesus H Christmas esq.

Manta Ray

“Sigma Sam rises from the ashes.........”
Please.... it's Manta Ray on here. I’ve not been away and continue to keep an eye on the forum for misleading posts. If you keep the comments fair, I’ll continue to stay in the background.
SS that you refer to is still happy to address any 51gma issues, but only in the Strictly Technical section of the SIDC forum, so that any responses cannot be confused with advertising.

“The great thing about the "factory wiring" that you use is that once you know how to defeat one car, you can do them all. That's a great system for security”
This is the exactly reason for the more stringent Thatcham requirements for OE systems that I mention in my previous post. In the case of Subaru models since 2001, Thatcham assess the vehicle as a whole before giving it an evaluation number, not the alarm in isolation.
When you say "defeated", the system will be triggered when gaining access to the interior, even before locating the wiring. After this point all systems, whether aftermarket or factory fitment, can be silenced in seconds, the wiring is not the weak link in the system at this point.
Even if the factory alarm wiring were accessed (while the siren were sounding) and you knew exactly what each wire did, you would still not be driving the car away under its own power without the vehicle’s keys for some time, despite your claim in the post above that "it takes 2 minutes to by-pass the cuts"
I wont go into detail on open forum, but the suggestion that the system is "defeated" at this point and the vehicle can be simply driven away shows just how little you know about the system. It would appear that you obviously need to do more than one car before you can do them all, as you suggest, if this is the information that you have gleaned so far!
Are you aware that the minimum attack time for a Thatcham approved immobilisation system is much greater than 2 minutes? If the system could be by-passed in 2 minutes, as you state, it would not have Thacham approval.

So, with this in mind of all systems, if it were my money, I’d rather have the alarm harness integrated into the factory bulkhead harness to ensure reliability and integrity rather than pay money to take the gamble and possibly have a poor aftermarket installation carried out by someone who may be pushed for time or who's knowledge of a particular vehicle or system could be questionable. I'm not suggesting this of all aftermarket installations, as always there are good and bad, but quality of workmanship can vary between individuals regardless of their chosen brands.

“Now they are using the factory wiring does that mean you have more time to put in some extra fixings? The last 1-2 we have removed have only been held in with one bolt”.
The alarm ECU mounting brackets are designed by Subaru engineers – they (and Thatcham) deem the fixings sufficient and I suspect have a much greater knowledge of vibration and fatigue testing than you or I.
You may also be shocked to hear that they only use two bolts to secure a brake caliper.

“Have sigma managed to sort out their remote problems yet? Or are you still blaming the outside influences of the Police, Ambulance, Phone masts etc.....”
Many alarm and car manufacturers suffered similar problems when the Tetra radio network went operational in late 2000.
A Tetra resistant receiver was introduced in early 2001 to remedy this, over 6 years ago now!
If you are implying that this is an on going problem on systems manufactured since 2001, then surely this and the SIDC site would be inundated with such posts.
Do you really think that the engineers at Subaru allow the system to be endorsed as a genuine part without carrying out extensive EMC and radio interference tests to satisfy themselves? You have no idea of the product specification and strict test criteria that FHI specify - in fact it is a great testament to the product that such an electronic part can be supplied to the Japanese

“Business is booming mate.. as long as subaru are fitting sigma's the aftermarket business will be great.”
… and as long you can continue to pedal misleading and ill informed information about the standard system as you have in this thread.

“Did you know that remote start doesn't affect you thatcham approval?”
LOL. Is that so? I have an e-mail from a Thatcham representative (dated August 2007)that would imply that that is not quite so clear cut:

“ We have had a discussion regarding aftermarket remote start feature, Thatcham will not except this feature built in as standard on a Cat 1 immobiliser/Alarm system, we will not evaluate, endorse or promote this type of feature and if this feature was offered, a statement “NOT EVALUATED BY THATCHAM” needs to be added to the fitting instructions and owners handbook, I would also suggest that if a theft occurred with this type of feature fitted then the insurer would probably have reservations regarding a claim.”

Clearly we have different sources of information on this and other issues, however I can support mine.

If you genuinely feel that the standard sytem is lacking in areas of security and can support this with evidence, then you should approach Thatcham with your concerns and attempt to have the product removed from the listings.
If you continue to post unsubstantiated and unjust claims about a specific product on open forum, then all parties concerned will need to consider their position.

I can't help feeling this would be better continued off forum if you need me to clarify anymore points for you. Alternatively, keep it fair, without trying to do any specific products down unjustly on open forum and I won't feel it necessary to respond.

OLLIeRB5

gotta love the clifford faithful...

basically mate your trying to say my fitting is the problem? I was and am a fully qualified clifford installer, and have been for nigh on 7 years. I began my training with clifford products, back when they were clifford and not this directed electronics money spinner brand.

I`m not saying sigma are the only good systems, i`d agree the following are also a lot better than some mainstream leading brands :

Sigma
Laserline
Toad
Cobra (although the programming is a joke)

early cliffords up until the end of the g4 range IMO were superb, gave little bother and were as such named "fit and forget" systems. The g5 range however is a joke.

my own 650 system fitted to my old dc2 integra randomly wont lock, unlock, disarm, the sirens battery packs have died 3 or 4 times, the blakjax feature just packed in for no reason even though the cliffnet software says its active.

the unit has been back several times for repair and or replacement and works for maybe a while then stops again. hardly an installer fault there, because as we all know, if its your own car you can take as much time as you like on the install.

The company I work for fitted cliffords since day 1, and it was not a decision taken lightly to end our business affiliation with them. But when reliability starts being an issue and in the end time is money, its best to drop that brand which is costing you money when other more reliable alternatives are available.

yes clifford have the added bling factors, I had them myself, shock sensors, window closure, prox sensors, remote start. But when you inform a customer that remote start could actually aid a thief in the removal of your car, they tend to opt out of getting it.

its good to see someone on here who actually knows what they are talking about instead of the old clifford clifford clifford badgering i see all to often.

i`d also appreciate in future that any comments regarding installers be kept to yourself unless you can back up allegations of poor installation. Every system i install whether it be in a bentley or a beetle I install as if i was working on my own car, if i wouldnt be happy with it in my own car then i dont do it.

I dont install sigma as a retailing brand, i did do a number of subarus with the m30 system for international motors, but my main training was with the likes of clifford cobra and laserline.

and as for the comment about problems because the installers are trained on inferior brands... thats absolute rubbish, many other brands technical support is far far superior to that provided by certain leading brands, with their advice being more than adequate and their thanks for supplying them with new information makes it all worthwhile.

the debate will rage forever regarding which brand is best.. just like the evo subaru debate.

the mans initial question was about whether his alarm was sufficient to which the reply was yes, as long as its not giving any bother why change it?

Jesus H

The G4 products were horrendous. Everyone knows that. In 2 years of fitting the G5 range we have had 0 failures from approximately 400-500 unit's.

Not bad for a product that is a "joke" according to you.


The real reason to change your alarm is simple....... Better protection.

Will the factory system go off if someone jacks up the car in an attempt to steal parts? NO

Will the factory system go off if someone attacks the car causing damage without breaking the windows? NO

Will the factory system go off if someone forcibly pushes or tows the car? NO

Will the factory system warn of people lurking round the vehicle? NO

Will a decent alarm system protect/warn for all the above? YES

Manta Ray

Ok, lets have a look at these points in more detail because it’s never quite as simple as one line;

“Will the factory system go off if someone jacks up the car in an attempt to steal parts? NO”
- Well, actually YES it will on the forthcoming STI as it has a tilt sensor fitted as standard (as has the Tribeca since launch – Subaru Part Number SACC 3931), so this could be retro-fitted to older vehicles with the standard Subaru system.
Tilt sensors are the more reliable of those mentioned here and the only additional sensor that Thatcham will consider when calculating vehicle insurance group ratings.

“Will the factory system go off if someone attacks the car causing damage without breaking the windows? NO”
- It could if you add a shock sensor to the system. However, these are prone to false alarms. Just where do you set the sensitivity? Set it too high and it will false alarm in strong winds, with passing vehicles etc. Set it too low and a great deal of damage could still be caused to the vehicle without triggering the alarm.
Even set to the point of risking false alarms I doubt that it would detect paint stripper, spray paint or key/scratch damage etc.

If a vehicle with the standard Subaru system received a severe impact, such as a collision from another vehicle, then this would most likely generate enough air movement inside the cabin to cause the ultrasonic sensors to trigger the alarm, but this can’t be guaranteed.

“Will the factory system go off if someone forcibly pushes or tows the car? NO”
- This is already covered with the sensors already mentioned:
A shock sensor would detect the pushing movement - depending on the sensitivity versus false alarm setting of the sensor.
A tilt sensor will detect towing.

“Will the factory system warn of people lurking round the vehicle? NO”
- It could if you add a microwave sensor, but again these are prone to false alarms. Set it too high and everyone walking on the pavement past your car will be triggering the sensor, passing vehicles will trigger the sensor etc. Set it too low and it wont trigger until you are inside the vehicle – when the standard sensors come into play anyway.


So at the most, we are looking at 3 additional sensors to gain this “extra protection” – a complete new alarm system is not the only solution here and may be a little exteme. The fact that a system includes these sensors doesn't automatically make it a "decent system", and the absence of them should not imply a lesser quality system.

Considering the pros and cons of these sensors, it is understandable that car manufacturers do not specify these sensors as standard, due to the high risks of false alarms. Many customers would not appreciate the “better protection” and the additional components would push up the list price of a vehicle for all.
This doesn’t mean to say that they cannot be added to the existing system if you wish to have them however.
Of all the sensors, the tilt and shock sensors are worth considering, provided that the shock sensor is set to a reasonable level to avoid false alarms and you accept that it may not detect all damage.
So, even if you must have all three sensors for “better protection”, these can be added to the existing Subaru alarm. Granted, the sensors need to be hard-wired into the current Subaru alarm system, but this is only a three wire connection for each sensor. Dual zone sensors would be a little trickier as the system does not have pre-warn output, but a piezzo buzzer could be used to provide a pre-warn tone.

Would the addition of these sensors to the existing Subaru system provide the same level of protection described? YES

Would the addition of the shock and microwave proximity sensors increase the risk of “false triggers”? YES

Would the system still benefit from the Original Equipment advantages, such as being operated from the existing remote rather than an additional remote on the key-ring – YES

If you were prepared to take the increased risks of a “false trigger” for this protection, would adding these sensors to the existing Subaru system be a considerably cheaper option than pulling the existing Subaru system out and fitting another alarm system with these sensors – YES


The new 08MY Impreza and forthcoming 08MY STI and 09MY Forester models will have the next generation Subaru alarm system fitted. This system allows both single and dual zone sensors to plug directly into the alarm system without the need for hard-wiring, so installation of the additional sensors should be even easier should you require then. Amongst other features, the system also has a pre-warn facility built-in if using a dual zone sensor.
The 08MY STI will have the Tilt Sensor mentioned fitted as standard.

Tart Man

Pretty much any alarm system with ultrasonics or microwave sensors will do that unless they are deactivated.

Most Ultrasonic sensors are triggered by a mere gust of wind if the window is down as they are often over-senstitive.

Your system must be adjusted well, as the idea of interior sensors is to detect movement inside a car...such as someone reaching in through an open window. It's no fault of the alarm if it is triggered when you reach through a window - infact its a sign its working correctly

Jesus H

Just a quick note to let you know.......

"Any addition of sensors, not tested with the original system by Thatcham, will invalidate the thatcham approval. Only the security system, in the form tested by thatcham, is approved."

Thatcham

ScoobLou

iTrader: (21)

Actually yes the alarm does go off if you jack the car up and also if its forcibly pushed.

Perhaps you should stop making such sweeping statements without evidence to back it up?

Jesus H

the factory system, unless factory fitted with an approved tilt sensor, only comes with ultrasonic sensors. These won't set the alarm off if the car is tilted or towed away. They will only set the alarm off if the window is smashed.

Considering I have had more experience with alarms than you and I have probably owned more impreza's than you (8), maybe you should stop making sweeping statements without the evidence to back it up.

Manta Ray

...and just a quick note to let you know that I am fully aware of that, so all our own branded accessory sensors are submitted to Thatcham for testing with the original system during its Thatcham approval. Therefore our own branded sensors can be used with the system without invalidating its approval, providing the standard ultrasonic sensors are not removed.

I submitted the sample Thatcham products and the accessory senors to the Thatcham engineer for evaluation myself.

Glad to see you are reading the criteria now, however......

Jesus H

That's mighty strange then because according to thatcham the Subaru system is only approved with the use of ultrasonics. (R/K 2 U L E O)

No mention there of any additional sensors being passed. And that's from the Thatcham website and they should know.

Page 9: http://www.thatcham.org/security/pdf...gerCarCAT1.pdf


Changing the performance applies to "making it better" just as much as "making it worse"

ScoobLou

iTrader: (21)

My dads bigger than yours

MR_TOAD_INSTALLER

iTrader: (1)

Oh dear such a shame to see two knowledgeable people hanging out there dirty washing in public
about time you realised you are in a Subaru club not a bar
think about the members now they are thinking what have i got fitted !!!!

Both alarms are sufficient to do the job
Just cos Sigma got the contract ( way it goes )
you can add extras to all alarms but with the Subaru Alarm is FREE
now there is a thought and it is Thatcham Aprooved mmmmmmmmmmmm

well said my bit

Ian

Jesus H

Thats the point, you can add them but if they haven't been tested by thatcham then your alarm loses its thatcham approval. That applies to Toad as well

ScoobLou

iTrader: (21)

Well I think my Sigma Alarm is more than sufficient. If its good enough for Subaru and my insurance company then its good enough for me.

My advice don't waste your money and stick with the Sigma.

Manta Ray

Not strange at all…

The “Feature Code” (R/K 2 U L E O) refers to the fitment on the listed vehicle and is intended as a reference for the features found as standard on the security system fitted to that vehicle.
This “Feature Code” therefore, simply lists the system’s basic features. It is not intended to imply that sensors in addition to these cannot be added, provided that a) any additional sensors have been tested by Thatcham in conjunction with the original alarm system and b) that none of the standard features in the “Feature Code” are removed.
As the branded sensors have been tested by Thatcham with the original product and deamed not to affect the performance of the system and as no substitution of sensors has occurred the Thatcham requirements below, that you highlighted, are met.
Quote:
Thatcham General Notes:

22: No modifications of listed systems are permitted which may affect their performance. Manufacturers and installers are
not allowed to substitute sensors or other components on a compliant system. This shall include original vehicle
equipment that forms part of the system such as engine management control units.

To give you an example of this, the SUB/AT100 system listed for the current Legacy has the evaluation number TC2-1265/0803 and the “Feature Code” does not include the tilt (inclination) sensor. The same evaluation number is also used for the current Tribeca, however the feature code does include the tilt (inclination sensor) as standard.
As both the Legacy and Tribeca have the same evaluation number and security system, then just because the tilt sensor is not listed in the Legacy feature code, does not mean that its addition to the system would render it invalid, as you suggest.

So, no issues with adding any of the correct branded sensors that were tested at Thatcham with the original system if you really feel it necessary.

I hope that this addresses any concerns egarding my adherment to the requirements and the maintaining of Thatcham approval.... I hope that you will have the same concern regarding the fitment of Remote Start Devices now.

I did notice that looking at the linked listing (Issue 57) there are a number of errors in the evaluation numbers and feature codes (for example the Tribeca does not appear on this listing!) I have discussed this with Thatcham and these points will be corrected in the course of the next week on the on-line listing (so the link should take you to the ammended document shortly) and in the next published issue due in January 2008.

MR_TOAD_INSTALLER

iTrader: (1)

This thread i might add is going nowhere either go in the ring together or leave the forum and this section to committed members who want advise not an argument between Kids

Wonder Wagon

Hi, just to add my 2p

Manta ray is correct about the remote start not being approved by Thatcham.
Leaving your car running locked or unlocked is an invitation to steal it which as why Thatcham will never approve of such a device

HTH

MotorG Raf

Good to have you back sigma sam!!!

Jesus H

You can't steal it when it's in remote start mode. The Intellistart 4 unit is full of safety and security related functions that make it impossible to steal. When the remote start is functioning the alarm system is fully active. If it is triggered then the remote start will shut down.

Wonder Wagon

So 20k of car parked up running, with no one around and you say that a chav/lowlife wouldn't be interested in having a go

rs250gpracer

somehow i dont think ill get info i need but here goes...... i have a uk turbo 2000, its a jan 2001 car and final classic version with sigma alarm.
my problem is that when it rains hard my alarm goes off, even if i dissarm it with the key fob after about 30 seconds it automatically re arms.... they goes off again.
seems far 2 sensitive and sometimes even just being around the drivers side door and/or front wing area seems to set the alarm off. ive found a little box that was located behind the centre trim near the handbrake and it has 2 dials on for sensitivity..... should this be my problem? i do not expect passer bys and bad weather to set my alarm off. any help appreciated.
possible to get remote start added to this alarm, the low revs untill warmed up proper is killing me... i need booooooost