brownjd5

Hello everyone. I was stopped by two ordinary PC's in an unmarked car (no lights, sirens or anything to mark it as a police vehicle) and they have charged me with dangerous driving for overtaking them on a blind bend. This is a very serious allegation (it is also completely untrue, I did overtake them, but it was leaving a right hander with a 200 m straight after it before a following left hander which was taken by me on the correct (left) side of the road as I had performed a smooth, perfectly legal overtake by then (single white line down the national speed limit single carriageway were the only road markings). I had sight lines of over 400 m through a series of open bends and I checked twice before pulling out that there was no oncoming traffic (I had my son in the car for heavens sake) but the two rude, agressive and sarcastic police officers refused to acknowledge the facts of the matter and are reporting me to the fiscal for prosecution. I have already been back to the site of the overtake within 48 hours to take still photos and videos of the location which clearly demonstrate how nonsensical the charge is.
I will need some good legal advice and would like to hear of any road traffic law expert firms that have been used by Scottish members of the forum who you could reccommend to me as being suitable. Ideally I need someone in the Glasgow area as I intend to contest this vindictive and unjustified charge but I know little or nothing of road traffic law and really need some help here..............................

m1cks

Why on earth would you stop for a plain car with no marking or way of identifying it was the bib? Car jackings are so common today, you should never stop, but instead drive to the nearest police station or busy area.

But you do have a driving licence, right?

If it was two against one, you will struggle to prove your innocence. They may just decide they don't have the evidence to proscecute, only worry about legal advice until you get a summons (do they have any video footage from thier car?)

brownjd5

M1cks,
I did not stop and eventually they pulled through a red traffic light to stop in front of me. I was actually going to reverse back along the road until they got out of the car and I saw their police uniforms, at that point I put my car in neutral and rolled my window down and said "How can I help you officer?" to which the male one replied with a derisive snort "whit dae yae bloody mean, how kin ye help me, turn yur engine oaff n gie mae the keys".
Unfortunately there were two of them but that does not change the fact that I did nothing wrong in the first place. Their car appeared to have no police equipment in it far less a video unit, they kept me waiting for 45 minutes to breathalyse me (it had to be delivered by a marked car) and of course there was no reading as I rarely drink.
And yes, I do have a licence, thanks for asking....a clean one for 31 years and no accidents in a car, ever!

m1cks

Only joking as you said you didn't know too much about road traffic laws.

Did you admit to anything at the roadside? A favourite of the police is to say "any idea why we stopped you?" to which you reply speeding, seatbelt, dodgy overtake etc. and incriminate yourself.
How was it left at the roadside? Did you get a notice of intended proscecution, or a producer for your documents.

bish667

iTrader: (1)

If you were driving a subaru that will be why they have taken a dislike for you overtaking them.
If you did nothing wrong then hopefully the charges will end up getting dropped.
I was recently on the receiving end of a dangerous driving charge but for a different offense(speeding) so my situation wouldnt help you.
I'm too far north to recommend any solicitors.

There's probably not a lot you can do until you receive a letter.
Good luck with it mate.

Dan 2

iTrader: (2)

PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice

Plenty of helpful advice in the link mate.. Good luck !

rtm4676

I would wait and see what you get, I would get a reasonable lawyer who can contest the charge if it even surfaces. Video evidence is pretty key given your long driving history, clean license?? and the fact you had your son in the car. I got charged 6 years ago with doing 79mph in a 40mph zone, used my company lawyer and got off with a £100 fine and 3 points. Wheres the justice ey..every things possible. Good luck

mshill

iTrader: (4)

Hi m8
there is a couple of specialist solicitors in scotland / glasgow area for road traffic offences
roadtrafficlaw.com
or
michael lyons

there is not much you can do until you get a summons, then consult a lawyer, best chance would be getting the charge dropped from dangerous (automatic ban) to careless driving which would be points and a fine, if they prove you guilty.

the downside of the above specialist lawyers are the cost,
£500 for a one day court settlement,
£1500 - £1700 + vat for an all the way job

good luck

Arch

iTrader: (59)

If you have RAC or AA cover then they should be able to advise you and your membership should include legal representation.
Another rout is via your house insurance. There is an add on that is called family legal protection and will cover you for this sort of things as well as employment disputes. As said before unless you receive a summons its prob best to just sit tight and collect info. If a solicitor offers a free half hour consultation that may be worth a visit as a "just in case" to gather more info
good luck

buffalo

iTrader: (1)

This will get flung out. you were basically stopped by two CID officers, whom for whatever reason wanted to ruin your day. a marked panda car has a hard enough time doing you for a traffic offence (by this i dnt mean, mobile phone or seatbelt) let alone an unequiped CID shed. if it was traffics i would have bent over for them there and then (whether i had done anything wrong or not) but seeing as it wasnt and with only an officers statement i doubt very much anything will come of this. the amount of times i am pulled for dangerous driving (i am young with a nice car is all) which is lowered almost by the minute to eventually a 'your lucky we're not the traffics, now on your way' is a joke. funny thing is always seems to be around the 45 min mark too! its funny when they tell you to step out of the vehicle and turn the ignition off. My reply is always yeah sure but you'll have to wait till my turbo cools down. they dont like that! police are very good at suggestive commands and questions to get you to incrimate yourself as mentioned previously. They belittle you and are anything but polite in my eyes simply to get a rise from you and a futher charge of breach or whatever.
my work collegue was held in the car park yesterday morning from ten to six till twenty past in the morning by a panda car which claimed he was doining in excess of 70 mph and they couldnt have caught him if he didnt stop! he was breathlysed in front of our work mates and security (at a time when we are gettin scored for redundancy). he drives 1.0 punto it would have taken him at a small eternity to reach this speed and certainly not on the short roads that lead to my work.
no wonder ppl have a thing against the police.
anyway bit of a rant, hope you get this sorted mate

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Can't see this going anywhere at all.

Did you even get a producer?

Remember they have 6 months to take you to court and it just isn't worth their time without evidence.

If they were alleging speeding that's different but the blind bend, given the road markings etc is going to be a nightmare to prove.

I would sit it out, if you hear nothing then you are ok. They will do their best to imtimidate you into something but i would say, apart from a bit of a delay you have nothing to worry about.

5t.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Was it Rab C Nesbitt ?

brownjd5

Hi everyone, thanks for the info. and support. I was not asked to produce any documents (other than at the scene which I would not do). I said very little to them other than to correct them when they suggested that I had travelled well in excess of the speed limit and to inform them that the bend was not blind but in fact had excellent lines of sight and that I had in fact passed them on the short straight section of road. When they eventually cautioned and charged me and was asked if I understood the charge I said "I understand the words you used but do not understand the charge as it makes no sense given the circumstances". After that I refused to say anything as I felt a wee bit like there was no point wasting my breath. There is no video evidence, they had absolutely no equipment with them at all (er, apart from what looked suspiciously like pepper spray or CS gas which one of them seemed rather too fond of fondling for my liking).

If only it had been Rab C. Nesbitt, 20 ****, a six pack of lager and the matter would have been sorted out.

I consulted a lawyer for a brief (free) consultation and the price of defence is staggering. They said that I had already done the only things I could do (photos, video etc.) at the moment but that the charge sounded laughable (all the way to the bank for them obviously) and they would expect to have the charge thrown out before a hearing or easily defend against such malicious nonsense but that this was based on the provisio that what I had told them was all true. It was, there would be no point misleading your own lawyer, I would be as well throwing the £1750 fee down the drain rather than do that. No matter what the charge is I will be defending it as I did nothing wrong. I actually can recall overtaking a marked patrol car on the exact same section of road with no problem (was the fact I was in my Porsche significant I wonder?) and one time that unmarked urine coloured Octavia vRS that used to patrol the M8/M80 waved me past on my R1 on the very same section of road!
I will keep you all posted, there is some other pertinent information that I cannot share with you guys just now but as soon as I can, I will, as some of it is actually quite funny despite the seriousness of my situation.
Keep your eyes on the road everyone and thanks again for the kind words.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Woah!

you are allowed a free half hour with a legal beagle chap. Get your money back there.

Seriously, don't sweat it at all. Me and a mate had this with the bikes once. "Court blah blah blah" except he admitted at the scene he'd tried to time two bikes using one time code (so not done either of us then) and refused to show me the video as it "is just two bikes going past the front of the car"

Got the ticket because he was "doing us a favour" (what by making up a speeding charge?) anyway didn't pay it and guess what? Never heard a thing.

Save your cash chap!

5t.

GlesgaKiss

I'm not going to go into the details here, but I did something pretty dodgy when I had my Impreza, was caught by the traffic cop and charged with dangerous driving. He was adament that he was going to see me in court etc. A year on I've not heard a word about it.

The guy was on his own though, and had no evidence whatsoever. But he still went to the trouble of getting officers from the local police station to come out so he could charge me.

SC008Y2009

been in loads of motiring situations over the last 15yrs and any time ive been stopped by an unmarked car (unless traffic)or a normal panda none has went any further than the first intermediate date when i give my n/g explain the situation via my lawyer and then thier lack of evidence is all it take
grin it and bear it big in

ginger321

Didnt think the rozzers could stop you in an unmarked car unless it had blue lights etc fitted in the grill or bumpers. Dont they have to give you a warning of intended prosecution as well.

brownjd5

I spoke to a former police driving instructor and traffic officer who loves his bikes and he said that "You are required to stop when instructed to do so by a uniformed police officer" even when said officer is in an unidentifiable car and you are unable to discern that the inhabitants are police officers. I suggested to him that he was talking bollocks and he said "They really have no right pursuing anyone in such a vehicle and they really should not be behaving in such a way". He suggested that I make an official complaint about their actions which I intend doing but following legal advice I will not be doing this until the legal proceedings are finalised. The former officer stated that in his opinion the two PC Plods who are responsible for this situation "should be ashamed of themselves for reacting as they did and behaving like this". It is small comfort to hear this when such authority is vested in two malicious and vindictive oafs who realise that there is little or no chance of them being brought to account for their actions as long as they stick to the same lies.
On the subject of a NIP, it can be given verbally at the scene, I am not aware of any paperwork being required. Does anyone else know differently?

bish667

iTrader: (1)

When i got pulled over for speeding/dangerous driving, they never gave me any paperwork, i just got given all the info verbally.

s20pe

Hi mate I am from wales this feels like a story I heard from my sons mate he pleaded not guilty and I must say exatly the same things where said by the cops My addvice is get a specalist soliciter the best you can , he used a local one and ended up lossing his licence for 15 months and a £500 fine , the cops got trafic cop to take a video three weeks later of the pice of road they said was where the offence hapened ,Matt said it was nowhere near correct they had no real evedence and they got him convicted just on their word I have no respect for the police after this and unless you have a s**T hot breif dont plead not guilty you will be hung out to dry best of luck and I hope you can prove you are inocent and you can convince the magistrate that the cops are lying scum I have a relation who sit's on the bench near us and he said that knows that the police fabricate evedence but he has to make judgments on the evedence put in front of him you must prove you are inocent or the cops are lying I am shure you will have the suport of all of us on scoobynet good luck Ps i have just spoke to a mate give these lot a ring they are s**t hot Driving offence.com 24hour phone line 0161 827 9555 drop me a pm let me know how you get on Phill

brownjd5

Here is an update for you all: A summons arrived for careless driving for overtaking on a blind right hand bend (though at the scene PC Plod said it was a blind left hand bend but I am not sure he knows left from right as he certainly does not know right from wrong) on the first day of my summer holidays, typical. This was accompanied by a PC Plod witness statement, the witness statement is almost entirely composed of lies and half truths. The central allegation about the location of the overtake is a complete fabrication (as my son will vouch). I secured (bloody expensive) legal representation and have pled not guilty and a preliminary hearing is in a couple of months time. My traffic cop friend stated that their statement is the weakest he has ever seen and he can not understand why the fiscal would proceed with no evidence save for the (false) word of two community plod. He reckons that they know I am going to go after them with a range of criminal and civil complaints after this and they are simply trying to obfuscate their culpability in this matter.
My lawyer said that the police witness statement is obvious rubbish and cannot understand how I can have received a summons for this nonsense. My lawyer went on to say that they were going to get in touch with the fiscal before the preliminary hearing and try to find out what is going on. My lawyer said that this whole thing stinks to high heaven and something very fishy is going on here.
Not much else I can say to enlighten you all, the police are telling lies, pure and simple. Much of their other behaviour that was witnessed by my son will also form part of my defence and so cannot be outlined yet but I will tell you all in due course about the scandalous way both PC Plods conducted themselves as soon as I can.
Apparently it is quite common for fiscals to drop proceedings when they see the strength of the defence at preliminary hearings but my lawyer has warned me that the normal response for this type of police report is a simple cheeky letter from the fiscal and to expect this to go to trial as this did not happen for reasons unknown to us.
All you taxpayers out there remember that we are paying the wages of these liars, we are paying the fiscals wages, the wages of all the court staff and all the other associated costs from our tax pounds. Makes you proud to be Scottish does it not?

sandyRS16i

iTrader: (13)

Dont forget that when you actually get to court you will be paying towards the dole and benifits that the jukies alongside you are all claiming off the state too. Such a nice feeling being in a room knowing you are paying for every ****** in there

ScottishRayman

brownjd5 - can I ask what age your son is that was in the car mate?

brownjd5

He is 11 years old and knows the difference between the truth and lies (my wife and I are obviously doing a better job of bringing him up than the parents of the two PC Plod managed). Whilst 11 is not ideal in these matters he has already had to give a sworn statement to my lawyer who was impressed with his capabilities. Two days after this though, he burst out crying and asked why the police are treating us like this? I had to get one of my friends (a serving PC) to help explain to him that there are some really bad people out there and unfortunately some of them join the police.

stig wrx

absolutly f**kin shockin! hope it works out
all the best mate

Wolfeman

Just read through this thread and I hope things work out mate. This must be very stressful for you but think positive and keep focused. Keep us up to date on the developments.

Alif

I hope this link helps any of you guys if stopped, DO NOT admit anything as they will bring it up later, This link says it all though

http://www.roadsupervisors.net/aesf.your-rights.htm

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Very interesting. You have certainly put a lot of effort into this. Unfortunately defending yourself is both expensive and time consuming. There is also the strain of the matter hanging over you and your son. Not to be underestimated. If you fight the prosecution successfully and from the information presented, that sounds to be likely, then of course that opens up the possibilities for payments for compensation.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
Depending how your solicitor plays it, there is every possibility that the Fiscal will not want to proceed.

LG John

Oh I know.....I KNOW!

Hope the case gets dropped mate; good luck. All I'll say is that if it goes to the wire you almost certainly will get done with 'something'. Look up the conviction rates for motoring offences in Scottish courts if you don't believe me. You simply don't get off with motoring offences and the Sheriff will always believe the word of two police officers against your word, even if there are some pretty glaring holes in their statements or evidence.

There are two things I hope you don't have to learn the hard way in life.

1. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty....on paper. In practise it's guilty until you can prove your innocence.
2. In this country to be convicted of a crime you must be proven guilty beyond on reasonable doubt......on paper. In practise a Sheriff picks and chooses who he believe and doesn't even have to justify to anyone why he's basically ignoring compounding evidence that counters the position he's taken.

Good luck. My shred of comfort is that my chosen method of income generation means I don't pay a penny of tax (and hopefully won't for the rest of my life) to fund the police, PF, courts, etc.

D Noble

hi there,
in your first post you wrote "single white line down the national speed limit single carriageway were the only road markings" it wasnt a continuous line was it? is so then no mater what cr4p evidence they have they will get you for dangerous driving. (got a fine for exactly doing so twenty odd years ago, but all i did was pull into a layby on the other side of a country road for a rest!)
hope all ends ok